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    #16
    Well, actually the money isnt of equal to the gold reserve like you said, its more like equal to the countrys total economic value or something like that, the gold is included in it and so are many other things.
    And the money backup thing also differs from country to country some currencys arent backed at all, they are tied instead to another larger currency, thats why in Europe were moving to the Euro one, the single currency has given a 10% boost to the economy, no more money loss in transfers from one currency to another.

    But I do believe that not far from now, currency will become obsolete and will be replaced with something entirely different.

    But to say, I dont think it would be at all to return back to the gold, since there isnt enough gold to replace the paper currency, not to mention something like that would cause such a devastating economic crash, that its basicly unthinkable.

    As you see things grow more complicated the more advanced they become, but thats just the price of progress.
    And one must always go towards advancement and progress, for staying stagnant is simply impossible, or at least as long as there is a single person on this planet with a free will that is, but last time I checked every single person had it.

    But let us never forget that, with any and all things there is a possibility and chance that they can be abused to some end and abused they will be that is the only thing that is certain, but this only leads us to the conclusion that humans arent perfect and never will be either, but even so they will strive towards being perfect, doing so is the only thing that we can do.
    Although this last part has been offtopic, and although the following doesnt apply to all every circumstance, Id like to add that: In the end we will regret most the things we didnt do, not the things we did do.
    Please Re-update your Signature

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      #17
      halaqa documentary on Money
      is a must hear- if ur intrested in exploring this topic
      Please Re-update your Signature

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        #18
        kaiser

        its going to be plastic, then a chip

        probably laid into our skins upon birth, and within that chip, all of the info the government could need

        your social security number, citizenship, medical information, bank account, and "spendable money"

        because with the threat of terrorism, its a necessary safety precaution for all of us
        .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
        نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
        دولة الإسلامية باقية





        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by AbuMubarak
          though i agree with you, what are you gonna do?
          Here's some Muslims way of responding to something they don't like:

          http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42368
          Please Re-update your Signature

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            #20
            you are becoming trifling, raven
            .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
            نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
            دولة الإسلامية باقية





            Comment


              #21
              fyi, you may need to adjust your satire meter.
              Please Re-update your Signature

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                #22
                Why not use coins then?

                that does nto come under paper does it :D

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by sajid
                  Why not use coins then?

                  that does nto come under paper does it :D
                  Fine then.

                  My next donation to Ummah.com will arrive in coins.

                  Would you like pennies or twopence? :)
                  Please Re-update your Signature

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by sajid
                    Why not use coins then?

                    that does nto come under paper does it :D
                    gold or silver coins would be ok

                    even paper money, if its backed up by gold or silver

                    but the present system of money meaning anything they make it up to be is whats haram
                    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                    دولة الإسلامية باقية





                    Comment


                      #25
                      In the end we will regret most the things we didnt do, not the things we did do.
                      Mashallah....good speech btw.
                      Please Re-update your Signature

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                        #26
                        Asalam 3laikum

                        I have extracted the following clause for the messsage below, which says

                        QUTOE
                        In order to own a credit card and avoid paying Rib‚, you must make payment on purchases before the statement comes in, i.e. send the credit card company the check for payment as soon as you make the purchase. If you are too tempted and unable to purchase things without immediately paying for them (and thereby will be charged interest), don't use them or don't even have them. Fear your Lord!


                        UNQUOTE

                        Apparently i was once told by a learned man that even if you decide to pay the financial institute the amount you spent on your credit card by ensuring that you make all the outstanding payments ontime without paying any interest, you are still committing a sin

                        When i inquired i was told that at the time of applying for a credit card we fill an application form and agree to their terms and conditon where they say that should you not pay on time you will be charged an interest of ...%. So in this way even if we dont pay interest we nevertheless witness or participate in this forbidden process.

                        Do share with me your thoughts on this. Allah SWT knows the best.
                        Fe Aman Allah

                        Imran K. Malik



                        RIBA (USURY AND INTEREST)


                        Defining the Problem

                        Riba (Usury) is of two major kinds: :
                        1. Riba An-Nasia - Interest on lent money
                        2. Riba Al-Fadl - Taking a superior thing of the same kind of goods by giving more of the same kind of goods of inferior quality, e.g, dates of superior quality for dates of inferior quality in great amounts.
                        The definition of Interest, the literal meaning of interest or Al-Riba as it is used in the arabic language means to excess or increase. In the Islamic terminology interest means effortless profit or that profit which comes free from compensation or that extra earning obtained that is free of exchange. Riba has been described as a loan with the condition that the borrower will return to the lender more than and better than the quantity borrowed.

                        As muslims, our main concern when it comes to financial transactions is to avoid Riba in any of its forms, despite the fact that the basic foundation of the world economics and finance today is that of riba and dealing in usury.

                        The Prophet has foretold us of a time when the spread of riba would be so overwhelming that it would be extremely difficult for the Muslim to avoid it. This situation calls for muslims to be extra cautious before deciding on what money payment of financial methods to use in any personal or business transaction.

                        To make sure that we are safe from Riba, we have to learn which transactions lead to it.

                        Interest in Pre-Islamic Times

                        HafizIbn hajr writes in his commentary of Sahih Bukhari (Fathul Bari), Vol. IV p.264:

                        Imam Malik reports on the authority of Zaid Ibn Aslam that in the period of ignorance (pre-Islamic times) interest was charged according to the following scheme. One person had a right to the property of another person. It may have been a general right because of the amount lent or the price of something purchased or in any other form. A time was set when the claim would be settled. When the appointed time arrived the creditor would ask the debtor if he wanted to settle the claim or pay interest with an extension of time. If the claim was settled then there was no increase in the payment. Otherwise the debtor would increase the amount payable and the creditor would extend the period further.

                        Textual Evidence
                        Hadith - Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, No. 299; Narrated 'Aun bin Abu Juhaifah, r.a.
                        My father bought a slave who practised the profession of cupping, (My father broke the servants instruments of cupping). I asked my father why he had done so. He replied, "The Prophet forbade the acceptance of the price of a dog or blood, and also forbade the profession of tatooing, or getting tatooed and receiving or giving Riba (Usury), and cursed the picture makers."


                        Hadith - Sahih Bukhari, 2.468, Narrated Samura bin Jundab, r.a.
                        He speaks of in a dream related to the Prophet (SAW) that there is a river of blood and a man was in it, and another man was standing at its bank with stones in front of him, facing the man standing in the river. Whenever the man in the river wanted to come out , the other one threw a stone in his mouth and caused him to retreat back into his original position. The Prophet was told that these people in this river of blood were people who dealt in Riba (usury).


                        The Noble Qur'an - Al-Baqarah 275-281
                        275. Those who eat Rib‚ (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shait‚n (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: "Trading is only like Rib‚ (usury)," whereas All‚h has permitted trading and forbidden Rib‚ (usury). So whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Rib‚ (usury) shall not be punished for the past; his case is for All‚h (to judge); but whoever returns [to Rib‚ (usury)], such are the dwellers of the Fire - they will abide therein.


                        276. All‚h will destroy Rib‚ (usury) and will give increase for Sadaq‚t (deeds of charity, alms, etc.) And All‚h likes not the disbelievers, sinners.

                        277. Truly those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and perform As-Sal‚t (Iq‚mat-as-Sal‚t), and give Zak‚t, they will have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

                        278. O you who believe! Be afraid of All‚h and give up what remains (due to you) from Rib‚ (usury) (from now onward), if you are (really) believers.

                        279. And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from All‚h and His Messenger but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums. Deal not unjustly (by asking more than your capital sums), and you shall not be dealt with unjustly (by receiving less than your capital sums).

                        280. And if the debtor is in a hard time (has no money), then grant him time till it is easy for him to repay, but if you remit it by way of charity, that is better for you if you did but know.

                        281. And be afraid of the Day when you shall be brought back to All‚h. Then every person shall be paid what he earned, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.

                        The Noble Qur'an - Al-Imran 3:130
                        O you who believe! Eat not Rib‚ (usury) doubled and multiplied, but fear All‚h that you may be successful.


                        Hadith - Mishkat-ul-Masabih
                        The following three ahaadeeth have been taken from Mishkat-ul-Masabih under the section of interest and the English translation has been taken from its English version written by Al Hajj Moulana Fazl Karim (218-227 vol.11)

                        • Hazrat Jabir r.a. has reported that the Messenger of Allah cursed the devourer of usury, its payer, its scribe and its two witnesses. He also said that they were equal (in sin).
                        • Hazrat Abu Hurairah r.a. reported that the Prophet said : A time will certainly come over the people when none will remain who will not devour usury. If he does not devour it, its vapour will overtake him.
                          [Ahmed,Abu Dawood,Nisai,Ibn Majah]

                        • Hazrat Abu Hurairah radiyallahu anhu reported that the Messenger of Allah said: I came across some people in the night in which I was taken to the heavens. Their stomachs were like houses wherein there were serpents, which could be seen from the front of the stomachs. I asked :O Gabriel! Who are these people? He replied these are those who devoured usury. [Ahmed,Ibn Majah]
                        Hadith - ??
                        Hazrat Al-Khudri radiyallahu anhu reported that the Prophet said: Gold in exchange for gold, silver in exchange for silver, wheat in exchange for wheat, barley in exchange for barley, dates in exchange for dates, salt in exchange for salt is in the same category and (should be exchanged) hand to hand, so whoever adds or demands increase he has practiced usury. The giver and taker are the same.


                        Conclusion

                        After reading the above, it is apparent to us that interest is haram (prohibited). How could anybody even take the time out to think about a matter in which Allah has declared war on the user and his Beloved Prophet has cursed him? As sensible people we can understand that what our Creator has chosen for us is for our own prosperity and benefit.

                        Islam has encouraged men to earn their own provision and provide for their families. The condition is that the earning has to be according to the Shari'ah. These rules can be found under the heading of trade in the books of jurisprudence. Interest is amongst those conditions which all dealings must be free from.

                        Imam Abu Hanifah has ruled that if the measurement system (volumetric or in compounds) is the same and the two items are in the same category, then they should be sold in the same amount and direct not in credit otherwise interest will be found.

                        Imam Shaf'ee says that if the items are valuable and could be considered food then there is the chance of interest.

                        Imam Malik says that if the items are valuable and are edible then interest is a subject.

                        Related Link:

                        List of Islamic Banks & Financing
                        • Giving and taking interest is Islamically unlawful.
                        • A person who takes interest does not gain anything in reality but through the explanation of the Qur'an verse. In reality the money through Rib‚ just goes to waste and the person does not even realize it, and a person who gives money in the path of Allah, in whatever form it may be, actually gains although in reality it may seem as though he is losing out.
                        • Every person should take all necessary precautions in their financial and social dealings. If a person neglects in keeping a watchful eye on financial dealings, this negligence will slowly spread to other aspects of religion, having a very detrimental effect.
                        • Interest is hazardous and should be abstained from in all manners. If anybody has a case they wish to solve then they should contact a knowledgeable person in this deen of Islam and present their problem as well as in all cases every individual should continue to seek Allah's forgiveness and guidance.
                        • In order to own a credit card and avoid paying Rib‚, you must make payment on purchases before the statement comes in, i.e. send the credit card company the check for payment as soon as you make the purchase. If you are too tempted and unable to purchase things without immediately paying for them (and thereby will be charged interest), don't use them or don't even have them. Fear your Lord!
                        • As a reminder to us all, Allah (SWT) has told us in the Qur'‚n [2:279] if we don't give up interest ,we must take notice of a war from Allah!
                          • Are you ready to go into battle against Allah (SWT)?
                          • Will you and your army of feeble credit cards be sufficient to do battle with Allah(SWT)?
                          • How can you justify doing something that's Haram?
                        • Muslims who are in debt and do not want to participate in Rib‚, or those who need financial advice are encouraged to consult with Islamic Finance companies and banks.
                        Remember... Allah, subhanahu wata'ala, sees everything we do!

                        .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                        نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                        دولة الإسلامية باقية





                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Xaxerian
                          Why not use other materials instead of paper?

                          In my home country Bangladesh, the national Bangladesh Bank started distributing a strange, but smooth polyester-type material for money, around a few years back. It is still in use, though not as popular as paper money.
                          POLYSTER MONEY IS THE SAME AS PAPER MONEY IN TERMS OF PRINICPAL.
                          BUT MAYNE WEARS LESS EASILY.

                          SAME WITH MODERN DAY COINS WHICH HAVE FIXED VALUE SET BY THE BANKS (EG STERLING, USD, TAKA, ETC)

                          REAL GOLD AND SILVER COINS (OR OTHER VALUABLE METAL) COINS ARE DIFFERENT BUT AGAIN NO SHOPS WILL TAKE THEM THESE DAYS.
                          Please Re-update your Signature

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                            #28
                            the problem is the way currency is figured, not whether its gold or plastic

                            plastic should represent a set amount of gold reserves that the issuer has

                            other than that, money is just a toy that capitalists manipulate to make more money
                            .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                            نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                            دولة الإسلامية باقية





                            Comment


                              #29
                              Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

                              AA,

                              Here is a link to a post on the bitcoin forum - They are discussing topics related to Islam that we Muslims also need to discuss. Unfortunately, it is a topic that is not discussed much in our community - the topic of "what is money in Islam?"

                              I have my concerns about fiat money and how it is based on interest. Every time we use a government issued currency, we are using a system that is tied to riba. Without going too much into specifics: when US dollars are created by the federal reserve, they are loaned to smaller banks at interest (riba). These smaller banks then use fractional reserve banking, where they can lend 9 or 10 times the amount of money they actually have, and they also charge interest on top of all that. So already, we can see that the US dollar is based on debt and riba.

                              I have found this document discussing Islam and fiat currency. How can such a system be halal? How come there are not more scholars denouncing such a system? Keep in mind, every time we use fiat money (I'm not talking about taking a loan from a bank), we are saying we acknowledge this interest based currency as legitimate, when in fact, we Muslims should know better.

                              Ideally, the best system would be to have a currency that is based on gold and silver. However, any country or company that tries to make such a sound currency is met with force from the US government. Let's take a look at what happens when a country tries to make a gold based currency. Now I'm not saying Gadafi was a saint, but he was trying to bring back sound money that would be backed by gold. And this would have undermined the US dollar - and this was the main reason (I believe) the US intervened in Libya.
                              There was also a company called e-gold: a company that issued digital currency that was backed by gold. Since this undermined the US dollar, the government over-regulated it, and shut it down. So if we try to start a company or bank that issued currency backed by gold or silver, it will be shut down. For the most part, we are being forced to use fiat currencies whether we like it or not.

                              However, if our goal is just to avoid all the usury associated with fiat money when it is created, there might be a solution. I have recently been looking into bitcoin - a digital p2p currency. Though while bitcoin isn't backed by gold or silver, it does have the advantage of not being associated with usury/riba when bitcoins are created. Bitcoin is a currency that is not based on interest like fiat currencies that almost all countries use. Bitcoin works by a global network of computers that maintain a bitcoin ledger - no central authority is needed. Bitcoin is still in its infancy, but I'm very excited about the possibility of having an alternative currency that works worldwide and is not based on interest. Also, bitcoin removes the need for a bank to store and send your money - so no worry about a bank using your money to generate profit from interest for themselves. Also, it is not a simple task to just shut down the bitcoin network, as the only real way to do this would be to shut down the whole internet worldwide.

                              If you are interested in learning more, check out www.weusecoins.com and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Introduction


                              Please don't post your misconceptions about bitcoin without trying to understand what bitcoin really is. Please try to educate your self first. If you have any questions about bitcoin, I will do my best to answer them.

                              sod6

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

                                I have posted an updated version to r/islam: http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...iat_and_islam/

                                AA,

                                Here is a link to a post on the bitcoin forum - They are discussing topics related to Islam that we Muslims also need to discuss. Unfortunately, it is a topic that is not discussed much in our community - the topic of "what is money in Islam?"

                                I have my concerns about fiat (government issued) money and how it is based on interest. Every time we use a government issued currency, we are using a system that is tied to riba. Without going too much into specifics: when US dollars are created by the federal reserve, they are loaned to smaller banks at interest (riba). These smaller banks then use fractional reserve banking, where they can lend 9 or 10 times the amount of money they actually have, and they also charge interest on top of all that. So already, we can see that the US dollar is based on debt and riba. Here is a video that does a good job of illustrating how this corrupt system works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0#t=1133

                                Back when the dollar was backed by gold, it could have been argued that using the dollar is halal, but that is no longer the case. And now the rest of the world's fiat currencies (even Islamic countries) are tied to the dollar.

                                I have found this document discussing why Muslims should not use fiat currency. I have been wondering - why are there not more scholars denouncing such a corrupt system? do their governments pay them to not talk about the subject? or are they just ignorant on the matter? Keep in mind, every time we buy and sell with fiat money (I'm not talking about taking a loan from a bank), we are saying we acknowledge this interest based fiat currency system as legitimate, when in fact, we Muslims should know better.

                                Abu Hurairah r.a. reported that the Prophet ﷺ said : A time will certainly come over the people when none will remain who will not devour usury. If he does not devour it, its vapour will overtake him. [Ahmed,Abu Dawood,Nisai,Ibn Majah]

                                This hadith seems to be describing our very situation with fiat currencies. Also keep in mind that debt in Islam is ONLY supposed to be between 2 parties - fiat money turns debt into a form of money, which goes against how debt is supposed to work in Islam. Again, we Muslims should not be using fiat money!

                                Ideally, the best system would be to have a currency that is based on gold and silver. However, any country or company that tries to make such a sound currency is met with force from the US government. Let's take a look at what happens when a country tries to make a gold based currency. Now I'm not saying Gadafi was a saint, but he was trying to bring back sound money that would be backed by gold. And this would have undermined the US dollar - and this was the main reason (I believe) the US intervened in Libya.
                                There was also a company called e-gold: a company that issued digital currency that was backed by gold. Since this undermined the US dollar, the government over-regulated it, and shut it down. So if we try to start a company or bank that issued currency backed by gold or silver, it will be shut down. For the most part, we are being forced to use fiat currencies whether we like it or not.

                                However, if our goal is just to avoid all the usury associated with fiat money when it is created, there might be a solution. I have recently been looking into bitcoin - a global digital decentralized p2p currency. Though while bitcoin isn't backed by gold or silver, it does have the advantage of not being associated with usury/riba when bitcoins are created. Bitcoin is a currency that is not based on interest like fiat currencies. Bitcoin works on a global network of computers that maintain a bitcoin ledger - no central authority (government or bank) is needed - it is like gold in this regard. Bitcoin is still in its infancy, but I'm very excited about the possibility of having an alternative currency that works worldwide and is not based on interest/riba. Also, bitcoin removes the need for a bank to store and send your money - so no worry about a bank using your money to generate profit from interest for themselves. Also, it is not a simple task to just shut down the bitcoin network, since there is no single point of failure - the only real way shutdown bitcoin would be to shut down the whole internet worldwide (a great way to bring down the economy too) - this is just not a viable option for bankers that want bitcoin to be shutdown.

                                The downside to using bitcoin is its price volatility, though generally it keeps going up in price. Bitcoin's volatility is due to the market trying to figure out the actual price of such a new currency (almost 5 years old now), so as time goes on and more people use it, the price should become more stable. Keep in mind though, bitcoin's price isn't pegged to any fiat currency. Bitcoin does not need fiat in order to work. If/when fiat currencies collapse/fail/hyper-inflate, bitcoin will still be alive and well.

                                I would recommend learning as much as possible about bitcoin before you convert some your fiat money into bitcoin - though I would recommend against putting all your fiat money into it because of the volatility. Also, if you haven't already changed some of your fiat money into gold and silver, you should do that too. We Muslims should be taking steps to try and rid ourselves of interest based fiat and look for alternatives. We should not remain ignorant on these matters.

                                If you are interested in learning more, check out www.weusecoins.com and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Introduction.
                                If you want to know bitcoin in a lot more detail, you can read through the original bitcoin whitepaper. You can even get started with a small amount of bitcoin (for free) if you like: http://trybtc.com/

                                Also, please don't post your misconceptions about bitcoin without trying to understand what bitcoin really is. Please try to educate yourself first. If you have any questions about bitcoin, I will do my best to answer them.

                                sod6
                                Last edited by sod6; 27-12-13, 03:47 PM. Reason: adding link

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