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Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

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    #16
    Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

    This hadith has been declared Hassan by Ibn Hajar (rh), so we can leave it at that. People should guard their tongues, especially in light of the month we are in, before making claims like it's fabricated and being unaware of some scholar's views.

    This hadith does not allude to anything horrible. It doesn't raise the status quo of the Prophet's cousin nor can it be claimed to be "shia propaganda."

    Agenda-based threads should be deleted by the moderators. There are alot of youth susceptible to half-truths.
    "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." -Orson Welles

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

      Originally posted by Marwan View Post
      This hadith has been declared Hassan by Ibn Hajar (rh), so we can leave it at that. People should guard their tongues, especially in light of the month we are in, before making claims like it's fabricated and being unaware of some scholar's views.

      This hadith does not allude to anything horrible. It doesn't raise the status quo of the Prophet's cousin nor can it be claimed to be "shia propaganda."

      Agenda-based threads should be deleted by the moderators. There are alot of youth susceptible to half-truths.
      But, Marwan, it obviously does change the status of Ali in some way.

      I'd like to point out that being The Gate obviously has considerable connotations in Islam. We see this quite clearly in Baha'i'ism, whose founder is called The Bab.

      I don't think these are insignificant questions, esp. in a forum whose stated purpose is dawah.

      You can't promote Muhammed (pbuh) as the Final Prophet or Seal of the Prophets, and then suddenly come along and say, "Well, there's actually a little more to it than that. We forgot to tell you about the importance of Ali who is kinda, sorta a prophet but not really."

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

        Some scholars declared it hasan due to corroborating chains.
        The Hadith master (hafiz) Abu Sa`id `Ala’i said, “The truth is that the Hadith is well authenticated (hasan), in view of its multiple means of transmission, being neither rigorously authenticated (sahih) nor weak (da`if), much less a forgery” (Risala al-mawdu`at, 26)
        www.marifah.info

        Wahhabis Refuted
        Ash'aris

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          #19
          Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

          People should guard their tongues, especially in light of the month we are in, before making claims like it's fabricated and being unaware of some scholar's views.
          who should guard their tongues?
          The ones who declared it as fabricated are major hadith scholars including from the Salaf.

          you want to take the opinion of al Hafidh Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah then that is up to you, there are others who take the opinion of other scholars.

          either way, rafidah can't use it as evidence for their false beliefs.
          For Fatwas: Islam Q&A

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            #20
            Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

            Um, why do you think I'm even talking about you. Masha'Allah, you're a fine steed. I'm just saying, generally, people should guard their tongues in light of the heavenly month that we are in now).

            Now, of course, it would've been nice for thread-starters in the Islam section to post different POVs. And if they are only aware of one POV, they should restrain from opening their big fat beaks (not about you, of course). That's all I'm saying.

            But, Marwan, it obviously does change the status of Ali in some way.

            I'd like to point out that being The Gate obviously has considerable connotations in Islam. We see this quite clearly in Baha'i'ism, whose founder is called The Bab.

            I don't think these are insignificant questions, esp. in a forum whose stated purpose is dawah.

            You can't promote Muhammed (pbuh) as the Final Prophet or Seal of the Prophets, and then suddenly come along and say, "Well, there's actually a little more to it than that. We forgot to tell you about the importance of Ali who is kinda, sorta a prophet but not really."
            I can't go deep into the connotations of the hadith, but I believe it refers to how one approaches the knowledge provided by Muhammed (s). Do we scale over the walls? Do we find a back door and creep into the city in the backdrop of darkness?

            Or, do we approach someone close to him, a companion, a blood relative who can give us the right sense of direction in how we 'deal' with that knowledge.

            It's very interestin stuff, theology.
            "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." -Orson Welles

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

              Originally posted by Marwan View Post
              Um, why do you think I'm even talking about you. Masha'Allah, you're a fine steed. I'm just saying, generally, people should guard their tongues in light of the heavenly month that we are in now).

              Now, of course, it would've been nice for thread-starters in the Islam section to post different POVs. And if they are only aware of one POV, they should restrain from opening their big fat beaks (not about you, of course). That's all I'm saying.



              I can't go deep into the connotations of the hadith, but I believe it refers to how one approaches the knowledge provided by Muhammed (s). Do we scale over the walls? Do we find a back door and creep into the city in the backdrop of darkness?

              Or, do we approach someone close to him, a companion, a blood relative who can give us the right sense of direction in how we 'deal' with that knowledge.

              It's very interestin stuff, theology.
              Granted, that is interesting.

              But where does Islam teach that a "blood relation" is somehow spiritually significant?

              We still aren't much closer to understanding why Ali, of all possible choices, was singled out for special recognition as a kind of co-prophet.

              If Islam recognizes some sort of "Holy Family" like that found in Christianity, then Muslims should be upfront about it.

              As I said earlier, it's not honest to advocate Muhammed (pbuh) as the Final Prophet and then sneak Ali in through the backdoor as some sort of spiritually exalted individual on par with the Prophet (pbuh).

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

                Cashew, in Islam, the best of creation are the Prophets then the companions
                and the best of the companions, in order, are Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman , Ali then the rest of the companions radiyallahu anhu.

                They are all human, and none of the companions are infallible.

                That is our belief.

                Now the ones who give Ali radiyallahu anhu a higher status than the 3 Sahabah above, and some give him a status even higher than the Prophets and consider him infallible and some very extreme ones make him a god !! are the shia\rafida

                and we are not shia/rafida.
                For Fatwas: Islam Q&A

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

                  Originally posted by Cashew View Post
                  But, Marwan, it obviously does change the status of Ali in some way.

                  I'd like to point out that being The Gate obviously has considerable connotations in Islam. We see this quite clearly in Baha'i'ism, whose founder is called The Bab.

                  I don't think these are insignificant questions, esp. in a forum whose stated purpose is dawah.

                  You can't promote Muhammed (pbuh) as the Final Prophet or Seal of the Prophets, and then suddenly come along and say, "Well, there's actually a little more to it than that. We forgot to tell you about the importance of Ali who is kinda, sorta a prophet but not really."
                  Firstly Ali is not of the direct bloodline of the Prophet Peace and Blessings be upon him. Ali married his daughter.
                  There is nothing that made Ali in any way more important than Mohammed (saw). Ali wasn't a prophet, he wasn't a god, he was a disciple of Mohammed (pbuh) if any label need to be attached.

                  If you follow the understanding of the shia....and you are raising Ali to a diety then you are transgressors....simply idolators, as you are worshiping the creation NOT the creator.

                  Prophet Mohammed Peace and Blessing be upon him, was the final prophet. None other come after him.

                  You know what 'The Gate' to Islam is?
                  The five pillars of faith with shahadah.
                  Thats the only gate necessary.


                  Ramdan Mubarak, May Allah guide us all. Ameen.
                  'Verily, never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change themselves.'
                  (al-Ra'd, 13:11)

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

                    Originally posted by Cashew View Post
                    Granted, that is interesting.

                    But where does Islam teach that a "blood relation" is somehow spiritually significant?

                    We still aren't much closer to understanding why Ali, of all possible choices, was singled out for special recognition as a kind of co-prophet.

                    If Islam recognizes some sort of "Holy Family" like that found in Christianity, then Muslims should be upfront about it.

                    As I said earlier, it's not honest to advocate Muhammed (pbuh) as the Final Prophet and then sneak Ali in through the backdoor as some sort of spiritually exalted individual on par with the Prophet (pbuh).
                    And there is no such thing as a holy family.
                    subahnallah
                    this is Bid'dah if people believe it and we shouldn't be discussing this fitnah during ramadan.
                    'Verily, never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change themselves.'
                    (al-Ra'd, 13:11)

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

                      Originally posted by Cashew View Post
                      Granted, that is interesting.

                      But where does Islam teach that a "blood relation" is somehow spiritually significant?

                      We still aren't much closer to understanding why Ali, of all possible choices, was singled out for special recognition as a kind of co-prophet.

                      If Islam recognizes some sort of "Holy Family" like that found in Christianity, then Muslims should be upfront about it.

                      As I said earlier, it's not honest to advocate Muhammed (pbuh) as the Final Prophet and then sneak Ali in through the backdoor as some sort of spiritually exalted individual on par with the Prophet (pbuh).
                      Asslamo Allaikum,

                      You keep coming with new suppositions/theories/conjectures.

                      a) Where does it say that Ali (RA) was singled out as a co-prophet? (Astaghfirullah! For repeating your words)

                      b) There is NO HOLY FAMILY exaltation in Islam…

                      Abu-Lahab was uncle (blood-relative) of Prophet Muhammad (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and this is what the Qur’aan says about him:

                      111. Palm Fibre

                      With the name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the Very-Merciful.

                      [111:1] Perish the two hands of Abū Lahab, and perish he!
                      [111:2] Neither his wealth benefited him, nor what he earned.
                      [111:3] He will soon enter a Fire, full of flames,
                      [111:4] and his wife as well,__the wicked carrier of firewood.
                      [111:5] Around her neck, there is (a collar of iron, like) a well-twisted rope.

                      c) Sneak Ali (RA) as prophet through a back-door? where did you get that from?

                      Please substantiate yourself from Islamic sources and quote the Aqeedah (beliefs)of Muslims who hold such views?

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

                        Originally posted by Cashew View Post
                        Granted, that is interesting.

                        But where does Islam teach that a "blood relation" is somehow spiritually significant?

                        We still aren't much closer to understanding why Ali, of all possible choices, was singled out for special recognition as a kind of co-prophet.

                        If Islam recognizes some sort of "Holy Family" like that found in Christianity, then Muslims should be upfront about it.

                        As I said earlier, it's not honest to advocate Muhammed (pbuh) as the Final Prophet and then sneak Ali in through the backdoor as some sort of spiritually exalted individual on par with the Prophet (pbuh).
                        I think you can find praises of un-related companions that match the importance as the ones levied to Ali (k). Blood is thicker than water, yes, but not always.

                        I suspected this thread was a trojan to declare shia kafir, and proven correctly once again, I think we should leave it at that.
                        "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." -Orson Welles

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

                          I suspected this thread was a trojan to declare shia kafir, and proven correctly once again, I think we should leave it at that.
                          I am assuming u are speaking about me since i am the starter of the thread?
                          am i correct?
                          For Fatwas: Islam Q&A

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

                            Originally posted by HelpingHand View Post
                            Asslamo Allaikum,

                            You keep coming with new suppositions/theories/conjectures.

                            a) Where does it say that Ali (RA) was singled out as a co-prophet? (Astaghfirullah! For repeating your words)

                            b) There is NO HOLY FAMILY exaltation in Islam…

                            Abu-Lahab was uncle (blood-relative) of Prophet Muhammad (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and this is what the Qur’aan says about him:

                            111. Palm Fibre

                            With the name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the Very-Merciful.

                            [111:1] Perish the two hands of Abū Lahab, and perish he!
                            [111:2] Neither his wealth benefited him, nor what he earned.
                            [111:3] He will soon enter a Fire, full of flames,
                            [111:4] and his wife as well,__the wicked carrier of firewood.
                            [111:5] Around her neck, there is (a collar of iron, like) a well-twisted rope.

                            c) Sneak Ali (RA) as prophet through a back-door? where did you get that from?

                            Please substantiate yourself from Islamic sources and quote the Aqeedah (beliefs)of Muslims who hold such views?
                            If you'll read through this discussion, you will see that I wasn't endorsing any of these points, only attempting to get some clarification of comments made by other participants.

                            I don't believe that Ali was in any way spiritually exalted the other Companions.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

                              Originally posted by Cashew View Post
                              I hate to keep pushing this issue in my ignorant non-Muslim way, but I find the whole thing very confusing.

                              We have this, for example:


                              And Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers the like of whom have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dies or is killed, will you turn back on your heels? He who turns back will do no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful. (Quran 3:144)

                              So we see that even very early on, Islam was extremely careful to stress the humanity of the Prophet (pbuh).

                              It's not as though this were some sort of secret. It's right there in Qu'ran for everyone to read. And it's hardly ambiguous.

                              Another thing: Muhammed as Seal of the Prophets. Another hardly ambiguous cornerstone of Islam. Muhammed as Final Messenger.

                              And yet how would Ali get all these supernatural powers and characteristics without being some sort of prophet?
                              The mistake you are making here is that you are quoting Quran to mention facts about the Prophet of Islam and then you come up with something about Ali r.a which is not mentioned in Quran; Quran nowhere mentions Ali r.a by name or something clearly. First choose a 'reference' or 'documented evidence'; and I believe Quran should be the only reference when we have to learn about the Prophet of Islam and his relationship with people.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Hadith (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate)

                                http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ha...y-of-knowledge
                                For Fatwas: Islam Q&A

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