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Open disbelief and paganism found in "al-Naqdh 'ala Bishr al-Marisi"!

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  • Open disbelief and paganism found in "al-Naqdh 'ala Bishr al-Marisi"!

    There is a book which is named as al-Naqdh 'ala Bishr al-Marisi (see also HERE). It's ascribed to 'Uthman bin Sa'id al-Darimi (d. 280 AH), who was a scholar of Hadith (not to be mistaken with Imam al-Darimi [al-Samarqandi] (d. 255 AH), who was the author of Sunan al-Darimi).
    It should be noted here that the transmission chain of this book contains several unknown persons, so that the content can not be ascribed with certainty to 'Uthman bin Sa'id. What is also suspicious is that this book contains very obvious Karrami creedal statements, while 'Uthman bin Sa'id had expelled Ibn Karram (d. 255 AH) - the founder of the Karramiyya - from Herat.
    I would be not surprised if these Karrami Mujassima put it into his mouth, considering that their evilness was to such an extent that they even poisoned Imam Ibn Furak (d. 406 AH).

    As far as I know this book was not quoted - nor even mentioned - in early sources (correct me if I'm wrong) and somehow Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) got hold of a copy of it and started to regard it as one of the best creedal books ever and this while this book contains open disbelief, paganism and anthropomorphism.

    If one reads the title of the book one may think that it's an response against Bishr al-Marisi - one of the leaders of the Mu'tazila -, but the issue is not like this! The book "refutes" innovation with even greater innovation and even outright disbelief and disrespect towards Allah ta'ala!

    Note that disbelief remains disbelief no matter who utters it!:
    Whosoever is pleased with the creed that shall be quoted or tries to spread it among the people or prints it in order to call the people towards it has fallen into disbelief. Whosoever dies upon this creed has died upon disbelief!

    Some of the quotes are translated by me and some of them by others (but the sources are not online anymore, so I can't link to them).

    These are some of the examples of clear Tashbih and Kufr from the above mentioned book:

    - "god" has a physical distance to his creation [and is in the above direction of it]:

    فقال: ألا ترى أنه من صعد الجبل لا يقال له إنه أقرب إلى الله.
    فيقال لهذا المعارض المدعي ما لا علم له: من أنبأك أن رأس الجبل ليس بأقرب إلى الله تعالى من أسفله لأنه من آمن بأن الله فوق عرشه فوق سماواته علم يقينا أن رأس الجبل أقرب إلى الله من أسفله وأن السماء السابعة أقرب إلى عرش الله تعالى من السادسة والسادسة أقرب إليه من الخامسة ثم كذلك إلى الأرض. كذلك روى إسحاق بن إبراهيم الحنظلي عن ابن المبارك أنه قال: رأس المنارة أقرب إلى الله من أسفلها. وصدق ابن المبارك لأن كل ما كان إلى السماء أقرب كان إلى الله أقرب، وقرب الله إلى جميع خلقه أقصاهم وأدناهم واحد لا يبعد عنه شيء من خلقه وبعض الخلق أقرب من بعض على نحو ما فسرنا من أمر السموات والأرض وكذلك قرب الملائكة من الله فحملة العرش أقرب إليه من جميع الملائكة الذين في السموات والعرش أقرب إليه من السماء السابعة

    "He [al-Marīsi] said: “Don’t you see that you cannot say that whoever went up on a mountain is closer to Allah.” It should be said to this objector who claims that about which he has no knowledge: Who told you that the top of the mountain is not nearer to Allah than the bottom of it? Because those who believe that Allah is above His Throne and above His skies know for certain that the top of the mountain is closer to the sky than the bottom of it and that the seventh sky is closer to the Throne of Allah than the sixth, and that the sixth is closer to it than the fifth and so on down to the earth. Similarly, Ishāq ibn Ibrahīm al-Hanzali [ibn Rahaweh (d. 238)] reported that Ibn al-Mubārak said: “The top of the minaret is closer to Allah than the bottom of it.” Ibn al-Mubārak told the truth for whatever is closer to the sky is closer to Allah.
    Notwithstanding, Allah is close to all His creation the near and the far and He is not far away from anything in His creation. Yet some of His creation is closer to Him than other as we explained about the skies and the earth. Likewise, with His angels, for the bearers of the Throne are closer to Him than all the [other] angels that are in the seventh sky.
    - end of the quote -

    (Note: The scholar whom he cites towards the end did not say what he claimed.)

    - "god" has a place (Makan):

    وأما قولك إن الله لم يصف نفسه أنه في موضع دون موضع، فإن كنت أيها المعارض ممن يقرأ كتاب الله ويفهم شيئا من العربية علمت أنك كاذب على الله في دعواك لأنه وصف أنه في موضع دون موضع ومكان دون مكان ذكر أنه فوق العرش والعرش فوق السموات وقد عرف ذلك كثير من النساء والصبيان فكيف من الرجال

    "As for your statement that Allah has not described himself with being in one location (Mawdhi') without another one: If you, o opponent, are from those who read the book of Allah and understand a little bit of Arabic, then you would've known that you're lying about Allah with your claim, because He has [indeed] described Himself with being in one location without another location and in one place (Makan) without another place. He mentioned that He's above the throne, and the throne is above the heavens and this is something that many of the women and children know, so what about the men?"
    - end of the quote -

    لأنا قد أينا له مكانا واحدا، أعلى مكان وأطهر مكان وأشرف مكان على عرشه العظيم المقدس المجيد فوق السماء السابعة العليا حيث ليس معه هناك إنس ولا جان

    "Because we've given Him one place (Makan), the most high, most pure and most noble place upon his great, holy and glorious throne, above the seventh heaven where there is no human or Jinn with him."
    - end of the quote -

    There are many such passages where "god" is explicitly described with having a place. The above two quotes however should be enough.

    - "god" has limits:

    وادعى المعارض أيضا أنه ليس لله حد ولا غاية ولا نهاية وهذا هو الأصل الذي بنى عليه جهم جميع ضلالاته واشتق منها أغلوطاته وهي كلمة لم يبلغنا أنه سبق جهما إليها أحد من العالمين. فقال له قائل ممن يحاوره: قد علمت مرادك بها أيها الأعجمي وتعني أن الله لا شيء، لأن الخلق كلهم علموا أنه ليس شيء يقع عليه اسم الشيء إلا وله حد وغاية وصفة وأن لا شيء ليس له حد ولا غاية ولا صفة، فالشيء أبدا موصوف لا محالة ولا شيء يوصف بلا حد ولا غاية، وقولك لا حد له يعني أنه لا شيء.
    قال أبو سعيد: والله تعالى له حد لا يعلمه أحد غيره ولا يجوز لأحد أن يتوهم لحده غاية في نفسه ولكن يؤمن بالحد ويكل علم ذلك إلى الله ولمكانه أيضا حد وهو على عرشه فوق سماواته؛ فهذان حدان اثنان

    "The opponent also claimed that Allah does not possess a Hadd (limit), Ghayah (restriction), or Nihayah (end). He said: And this is the basis upon which Jahm (ibn Safwan) built his misguidance and derived all of his errors. It has not reached us that anyone besides Jahm in the world preceded him with it. Someone who was discussing this with him (Jahm) said to him: I have come to know your intent oh non-Arab. You intend that Allah is nothing, because all of the creation have known that there is nothing that is called a “thing” except that it has a Hadd (limit), a Ghayah (restriction) and an attribute, and that what has no limit, restriction or attribute is nothingness.
    So that which is a “thing” must necessarily be described with attributes. Nothingness is described with no limit or restriction. Your statement: He has no limit means that He is nothing.”
    Abu Sa’id (al-Darimi) states:
    Allah Ta’ala has a limit that no one knows but Him and it is not allowed for anyone to imagine a limit to His limit in himself, however, he is to believe in the limit and relegate the knowledge of that to Allah. His place (Makan) also has a limit and He is upon His ‘Arsh above the seven heavens- so these are two limits.
    - end of the quote -

    (Note: This statement is in direct opposition to what we find in the 'Aqida al-Tahawiyya, which has been accepted by the scholars of Ahl al-Sunna in general.)

    - "god" moves, sits and stands:

    لأن الحي القيوم يفعل ما يشاء ويتحرك إذا شاء ويهبط ويرتفع إذا شاء ويقبض ويبسط ويقوم ويجلس إذا شاء، لأن أمارة ما بين الحي والميت التحرك: كل حي متحرك لا محالة وكل ميت غير متحرك لا محالة

    "Because the Living the Sustainer does as He wills: He moves as He wills, and He descends and ascends as He wills, and He extends [His hand] as He wills and stands and sits as He wills, for the criterion that distinguishes the living from the dead is movement: every live thing moves of necessity and every dead thing does not move of necessity."
    - end of the quote -

    - When "god" sits upon the Kursi there remains a space of four fingers on it:

    إن كرسيه وسع السماوات والأرض وإنه ليقعد عليه فما يفضل منه إلا قدر أربع أصابع ومد أصابعه وإن له أطيطا كأطيط الرحل الجديد إذا ركبه من يثقله

    "“Verily, His chair can hold the skies and the earth, and verily He sits down on it and there is no space left over in it except the space of four fingers,” and he extended his four fingers. “And [the chair] makes a sound like that of a new saddle when someone sits on it with his weight.”"
    - end of the quote -

    (Note: This is part of a [wrong] narration that he cites as a proof against his opponent.)

    - When "god" sits on the throne it makes a sound, because of his weight:

    وروى المعارض أيضا عن الشعبي أنه قد ملأ العرش حتى إن له أطيطا كأطيط الرحل. ثم فسر قول الشعبي أنه قد ملأه آلاء ونعما حتى إن له أطيطا ... فيقال لهذا المعارض: ... ويلك فإن لم يكن على العرش بزعمك إلا آلاؤه ونعماؤه وأمره فما بال العرش يتأطط من الآلاء والنعماء؟ لكأنها عندك أعكام الحجارة والصخور والحديد فيتأطط منها العرش ثقلا، إنما الآلاء طبائع أو صنائع ليس لها ثقل ولا أجسام يتأطط منها العرش

    "The opponent has also reported from al-Sha'bi [who said] that He (Allah) has filled the throne and that [the throne] makes a sound like the sound of a saddle [when someone sits on it]. Then he interpretated the statement of al-Sha'bi [by saying], that [the throne] was filled by the grace and favor [of Allah]....
    It is said to this opponent: ... Woe to you! If there is nothing on the throne - in your claim - other than the grace and favor [of Allah] and His command, then is it that the throne is making a sound from the grace and favor? It is as if [they are like] stones and iron to you, so that the throne makes a sound because of their weight.
    Favors are traits and deeds which have no weight (Thiql) and they're not bodies which could cause the throne to make a sound.
    - end of the quote -

    (Note: The statement that is ascribed to the Tabi'i is a lie against him as was mentioned by Imam Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597 AH) in his Daf' Shubah al-Tashbih.)

    - "god" has touched Adam, peace be upon him, while creating him with his hands:

    فيقال لهذا المريسي الجاهل بالله وبآياته: فهل علمت شيئا مما خلق الله ولي خلق ذلك غيره حتى خص آدم من بينهم أنه ولى خلقه من غير مسيس بيده، فسمّه؟ وإلا فمن ادعى أن الله لم يل خلق شيء صغير أو كبير فقد كفر. غير أنه ولي خلق الأشياء بأمره وقوله وإرادته وولي خلق آدم بيده مسيسا: لم يخلق ذا روح بيديه غيره فلذلك خصه وفضله وشرف بذلك ذكره، لولا ذلك ما كانت له فضيلة من ذلك على شيء من خلقه إذ خلقهم بغير مسيس في دعواك
    - end of the quote -

    - "god" may rest/sit upon the back of a mosquito:

    إن الله أعظم من كل شيء وأكبر من كل خلق ولم يحتمله العرش عظما ولا قوة، ولا حملة العرش احتملوه بقوتهم ولا استقلوا بعرشه بشدة أسرهم ولكنهم حملوه بقدرته ومشيئته وإرادته وتأييده لولا ذلك ما أطاقوا حمله. وقد بلغنا أنهم حين حملوا العرش وفوقه الجبار في عزته وبهائه ضعفوا عن حمله واستكانوا وجثوا على ركبهم حتى لقنوا لا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله فاستقلوا به بقدرة الله وإرادته لولا ذلك ما استقل به العرش ولا الحملة ولا السموات والأرض ولا من فيهن ولو قد شاء لاستقر على ظهر بعوضة فاستقلت به بقدرته ولطف ربوبيته فكيف على عرش عظيم أكبر من السموات السبع والأرضين السبع وكيف ينكر أيها النفاج أن عرشه يقله والعرش أكبر من السموات السبع والأرضين السبع ولو كان العرش في السموات والأرضين ما وسعته ولكنه فوق السماء السابعة.
    فكيف تنكر هذا وأنت تزعم أن الله في الأرض وفي جميع أمكنتها والأرض دون العرش في العظمة والسعة فكيف تقله الأرض في دعواك ولا يقله العرش الذي أعظم منها وأوسع؟

    "Verily, Allah is greater than all things and bigger than all creation, and the throne is not carrying Him by [its] glory and strength, nor are the carriers of the throne carrying it by their strength, nor could they bear His throne; but they carried it by His power. It has reached us that when they carried the throne, and above it was the Almighty, in His glory and His splendor, they became weak from carrying it, and they became lowly, and knelt down on their knees, until they were taught to read: ‘There is no power, nor might, except with Allah.’ Then, they bore it by the power of Allah and His will. And if it were not for that, the throne would not be able to bear Him (i.e. Allah), nor the carriers [of the throne], nor the heavens, nor the earth, nor those in them.
    Had He willed, He would have settled on the back of a mosquito, so it would bear Him, by His power and the subtlety of His Lordship. Thus, what of the great throne, that is bigger than the heavens and the earth? And how do you deny, O vain one, that His throne bears Him, when the throne is bigger than the seven heavens and the seven earths? And had the throne been in the heavens and the earth, they would not have contained it, but it is above the seventh heaven. So how can you deny this, when you claim that Allah is in the earth in all its places, yet the earth is less than the throne in greatness and vastness. So how is it that the earth bears Him according to your claim, but the throne which is greater and more vast than it does not?

    - end of the quote -

    The above should be enough.

    Just because the Mu'attila went to one extreme it does not justify to go to the another extreme.
    The above descriptions are in no way from the attributes of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala or from the belief of the people of Islam regarding the Bari subhanahu wa ta'ala.
    These descriptions are from the beliefs of the pagans regarding their imaginary "gods". We ask Allah ta'ala for well-being and safety.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    As far as I know this book was not quoted - nor even mentioned - in early sources (correct me if I'm wrong) and somehow Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) got hold of a copy of it and started to regard it as one of the best creedal books ever and this while this book contains open disbelief, paganism and anthropomorphism.
    The opinion of Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) [and Ibn Qayyim (d. 751 AH)] regarding the above book:

    وكتاباه من أجل الكتب المصنفة في السنة وأنفعها ، وينبغي لكل طالب سنة مراده الوقوف على ( ما كان ) عليه الصحابة والتابعون والأئمة أن يقرأ كتابيه ، وكان شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية رحمه الله يوصي بهذين الكتابين أشد الوصية ويعظمهما جدا ، وفيهما من تقرير التوحيد والأسماء والصفات بالعقل والنقل ما ليس في غيرهما

    "His two books (Al-Naqd ‘alā Bishr al-Marīsi and al-Radd ‘alā al-Jahmiyah [two books by Uthman ibn Sa'id al-Dārimi]) are among the greatest books ever written about the sunnah [that is, belief] and the most beneficial and it behooves every student of the sunnah who desires to learn what the Companions and Followers and the imams used to believe to read his two books. Shaikh al-Islam Ibn Taimiyah, may Allah show him mercy, used to recommend these two books in the extreme, and he used to extol it greatly. In these two books tauheed and the names and attributes are discussed according to rational proofs and transmitted texts in a way that is not to be found in other than them."
    - end of quote (from Ijtima' al-Juyush al-Islamiyya p. 231 by Ibn Qayyim)-

    Comment: This is yet another proof against both of them. Which rational proofs and which Tawhid are they talking about? The statement with the mosquito is nothing but an insult against Allah ta'ala!
    As for those who print this accursed book in our time: They're heretics and callers to disbelief (!) and they shall not think that anyone can protect them from the punishment of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala!


    • #3
      This picture is from a christian website depicting "god", which is also supported by the accursed book mentioned above:

      Now the christians don't have a problem with the above imagination, because for them 'Isa - peace be upon him - is God and there is nothing wrong in imagining him as a 3-dimensional being.

      But do we as Muslims believe this?! Do we as Muslims believe what is similar to this?! No by Allah no! Whosoever believes that Allah ta'ala is like this or what is similar to this, has disbelieved and is upon paganism and not Islam!



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