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  • Abu Dawuud 336

    I don't understand how someone can die from taking a bath in this scenario and wishing for death upon people who advised out of ignorance and not even something that seemed so unlikely and not needing expert help seems unfair and unlikely. What are your thoughts? It's this kind of thing that reduces faith. :(

  • #2
    My thoughts are that if your faith is reduced by this then you have other underlying problems.

    Comment


    • #3
      Oh definitely, it upsets plenty around me, but I like to question everything and be comfortable in my belief knowing it's believable and sensible. That's the strength of Islam. Otherwise everyone may as well stick to whatever faith they were brought up with.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Macaroni View Post
        Oh definitely, it upsets plenty around me, but I like to question everything and be comfortable in my belief knowing it's believable and sensible. That's the strength of Islam. Otherwise everyone may as well stick to whatever faith they were brought up with.
        Questioning everything is good but there has to come a point when you have to accept what you're told.

        Comment


        • #5
          I've been unclear in my original post but it is actually very serious. Maybe it shouldn't be such a concern as it's not one of the more high status hadith sources eg Bukhari but I don't know how to express my concerns.

          How can someone die from taking a bath? Does a sexual dream mean wudhu needs to be repeated? Advising someone as in this case seems to be totally innocent and rational advice if there was nothing to suggest the contrary ie to wash even if a stone hit the head. If the person was well enough to have a dream like that surely it would seem they were mentally and physically fit? Therefore no need for medical advice...

          And the religious advice on using water was totally innocent and who with the persons best interest at heart.

          How can it then be said that the fellow travellers killed the guy, even if it was possible? Why do they deserve to be killed? Unless that is to speed up their final judgement (not meaning that as sarcastic as it may sound).

          Apologies if this is not very clear, I struggle to type. I can clarify further.

          Comment


          • #6
            This doesn't seem very compassionate at all. Astaghfirullah.

            Comment


            • #7
              At least post the narration.

              Comment


              • #8
                ××BOOK:
                PURIFICATION (KITAB AL-TAHARAH) Hadith 336 Of Purification (Kitab Al-Taharah) By Sunan Abu Dawood(336) The Wounded Person Performing Tayammum


                حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ الْأَنْطَاكِيُّ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ سَلَمَةَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ الزُّبَيْرِ بْنِ خُرَيْقٍ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ عَطَاءٍ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ جَابِرٍ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏قَالَ:‏‏‏‏ خَرَجْنَا فِي سَفَرٍ فَأَصَابَ رَجُلًا مِنَّا حَجَرٌ فَشَجَّهُ فِي رَأْسِهِ ثُمَّ احْتَلَمَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏فَسَأَلَ أَصْحَابَهُ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏فَقَالَ:‏‏‏‏ هَلْ تَجِدُونَ لِي رُخْصَةً فِي التَّيَمُّمِ ؟ فَقَالُوا:‏‏‏‏ مَا نَجِدُ لَكَ رُخْصَةً وَأَنْتَ تَقْدِرُ عَلَى الْمَاءِ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏فَاغْتَسَلَ فَمَاتَ. فَلَمَّا قَدِمْنَا عَلَى النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أُخْبِرَ بِذَلِكَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏فَقَالَ:‏‏‏‏ قَتَلُوهُ قَتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏أَلَا سَأَلُوا إِذْ لَمْ يَعْلَمُوا، ‏‏‏‏‏‏فَإِنَّمَا شِفَاءُ الْعِيِّ السُّؤَالُ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏إِنَّمَا كَانَ يَكْفِيهِ أَنْ يَتَيَمَّمَ وَيَعْصِرَ أَوْ يَعْصِبَ شَكَّ مُوسَى عَلَى جُرْحِهِ خِرْقَةً ثُمَّ يَمْسَحَ عَلَيْهَا وَيَغْسِلَ سَائِرَ جَسَدِهِ .

                ZAEEF HADITH:

                Jabir said: We set out on a journey. One of our people was hurt by a stone, that injured his head. The then had a sexual dream. He asked his fellow travelers: Do you find a concession for me to perform tayammum? They said: We do not find any concession for you while you can use water. He took a bath and died. When we came to the Prophet صلی ‌اللہ ‌علیہ ‌وسلم, the incident was reported to him. He said: They killed him, may Allah kill them! Could they not ask when they did not know ? The fire of ignorance is inquiry. It was enough for him to perform tayammum and to our some drops of water or bind a bandage over the wound (the narrator Musa was doubtful); then he should have wiped over it and washed the rest of his body.
                REFERENCE:

                Sunan Abu Dawood 3: Chapter 156, Hadith 336

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Macaroni View Post
                  ...ZAEEF HADITH...
                  Do you know what this means?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A weak hadith apparently but it was found in some legitimate Islamic course material I just found from a few years ago. It was used in a different context but it's still significant in that sense, considering at least two highly rated sheiks taught it.

                    Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding stuff, at least it's here and it can be read.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Macaroni View Post
                      A weak hadith apparently but it was found in some legitimate Islamic course material I just found from a few years ago. It was used in a different context but it's still significant in that sense, considering at least two highly rated sheiks taught it.

                      Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding stuff, at least it's here and it can be read.
                      OK, the hadeeth seems straightforward to me.

                      They gave a ruling out of ignorance which caused the man to die. One of the lessons we learn is the danger of speaking without knowledge.

                      Does a sexual dream mean wudhu needs to be repeated?
                      Ghusl (bath).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Macaroni View Post
                        ××BOOK:
                        PURIFICATION (KITAB AL-TAHARAH) Hadith 336 Of Purification (Kitab Al-Taharah) By Sunan Abu Dawood(336) The Wounded Person Performing Tayammum


                        حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ الْأَنْطَاكِيُّ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ سَلَمَةَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ الزُّبَيْرِ بْنِ خُرَيْقٍ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ عَطَاءٍ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏عَنْ جَابِرٍ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏قَالَ:‏‏‏‏ خَرَجْنَا فِي سَفَرٍ فَأَصَابَ رَجُلًا مِنَّا حَجَرٌ فَشَجَّهُ فِي رَأْسِهِ ثُمَّ احْتَلَمَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏فَسَأَلَ أَصْحَابَهُ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏فَقَالَ:‏‏‏‏ هَلْ تَجِدُونَ لِي رُخْصَةً فِي التَّيَمُّمِ ؟ فَقَالُوا:‏‏‏‏ مَا نَجِدُ لَكَ رُخْصَةً وَأَنْتَ تَقْدِرُ عَلَى الْمَاءِ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏فَاغْتَسَلَ فَمَاتَ. فَلَمَّا قَدِمْنَا عَلَى النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أُخْبِرَ بِذَلِكَ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏فَقَالَ:‏‏‏‏ قَتَلُوهُ قَتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏أَلَا سَأَلُوا إِذْ لَمْ يَعْلَمُوا، ‏‏‏‏‏‏فَإِنَّمَا شِفَاءُ الْعِيِّ السُّؤَالُ، ‏‏‏‏‏‏إِنَّمَا كَانَ يَكْفِيهِ أَنْ يَتَيَمَّمَ وَيَعْصِرَ أَوْ يَعْصِبَ شَكَّ مُوسَى عَلَى جُرْحِهِ خِرْقَةً ثُمَّ يَمْسَحَ عَلَيْهَا وَيَغْسِلَ سَائِرَ جَسَدِهِ .

                        ZAEEF HADITH:

                        Jabir said: We set out on a journey. One of our people was hurt by a stone, that injured his head. The then had a sexual dream. He asked his fellow travelers: Do you find a concession for me to perform tayammum? They said: We do not find any concession for you while you can use water. He took a bath and died. When we came to the Prophet صلی ‌اللہ ‌علیہ ‌وسلم, the incident was reported to him. He said: They killed him, may Allah kill them! Could they not ask when they did not know ? The fire of ignorance is inquiry. It was enough for him to perform tayammum and to our some drops of water or bind a bandage over the wound (the narrator Musa was doubtful); then he should have wiped over it and washed the rest of his body.
                        REFERENCE:

                        Sunan Abu Dawood 3: Chapter 156, Hadith 336
                        Rating of the Hadith
                        To my knowledge (and my knowledge is little), Abu Dawud Rahimullah doesn't really rate his own Hadith, as Imam Tirmidhi Rahimullah does, so any rating you read next to the hadith is given by a certain Muhaddith (of earlier times e.g. al-Hakim al-Nishapuri Rahimullah, ad-Dhahabi Rahimullah or of later times e.g. Nuruddin Itr Rahimullah, Al Albani etc.) who is not the author of the collection. There may be differences in grading between the Muhaditheen.

                        Could you provide a reference for who is rating this Hadith Da'if (weak)?

                        The only reason I say this is that it caught my eye that apparently al-Albani says it is "Hasan" and al-Albani is typically said to be overly harsh in rating hadith (some accuse him of weaking sahih hadith found in sihah sittah) - so for him to rate it "Hasan" and the rating you have shown to be "Da'if" seems like a strange contradiction to me. Perhaps I have misunderstood the terminology of al-Albani? Could someone correct me on this?

                        حسن دون قوله إنما كان يكفيه
                        Problematic Hadith
                        I use to feel the same as you did not long ago, I would question hadith based on my own idea of right and wrong.

                        We cannot rely on our understanding of right and wrong as it is subjective and influenced by the society and age we are raised in. To critique the objective with the subjective is a logical fallacy. Breaking the barrier and foregoing the social conditioning you undergone in childhood is a difficult process, but once you do this you can see things for how they truly are and you can analyse and critique your own subjective understanding and the understanding your society has. If we cannot do this we will be unable to know the wrongs of our society.

                        E.g.

                        Imagine a society which incourages Xenomelia - a mental disorder where the patient wishes to remove a limb. Such a society views this as a natural urge that some people will have a devolop (and they are not wrong - but does that mean we should incourage them to dismember their limbs?)

                        Now you are a Muslim in such a society and your body is inviolable - how do you deal with the fact that you have been taught from a young age that this is completely normal, natural and above all moral, but you find e.g. the Muslim scholars stating that it is immoral to cut off your hand (you would feel your scholars are immoral and in the wrong) and the conversely, the Prophet Alayhis Salam allowed the dismembering of the hand of the thief as punishment. "How unfair and unjust" such a person from such a society might think - that Rasulallah Salallahu Alayhi Was-Salam's teachings do not allow one to consentially take his limb when he is born with a desire to do so, but allows the taking of the limb of someone as a punishment for a crime (the one who wants it doesn't get it and the one who does not want it gets it).

                        So we realise that if we base our judgements of the objective (the Quran, the Shariah, the statements and the Sunnah) by the subjective we may never come to true guidance, we will only be capable of agreeing where our societal upbringing is congruent with the teachings of Islam and, unless you are born in an Islamic society during Khilafah, this is never the case. The Mushriks of Makkah lamented that Islam puts them on the same social footing as freed slaves and the low people of society, they thought buryng their daughters was normal, they thought doing tawaf naked was holy...

                        If you were in that society and you based your judgements of something meant to be objective truth for all society off of what you were taught in that society, you might end up being no better than them.

                        The Wisdom of this Particular Hadith
                        In most modern societies, medical malpractice is seen as blameworthy. Manslaughter is a crime in most societies (where you accidentally kill someone). What is quite surprising here for me is that Rasulallah Alayhis Salatu was-Salam does not take any action against them apart from saying (translation/interpretation) "May Allah Kill them". Everyone will die, Allah will kill all of us for he is the bringer of Death, Rab al-Maut (this is not a nullification of asbab).

                        An Analogy:

                        If someone comes to you and asks should he take the red pill or the blue pill, and you are a layperson who knows a doctor is nearbye, yet instead of asking that authority you give them the judgement that you should take the blue pill as (generally) red is a bad color. Now sed person dies. Are you not blameworthy? Why didn't you consult the doctor?

                        Rasulallah Alayhis Salam in our case is the doctor.

                        If I personally had known that you had given this advice to my relative I would be furious, I would likely sue you for basically killing my relative. But does Rasulallah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam enact Qisas or ask for the Diyah to be given?

                        [Perhaps he did but it is not found in this hadith.]

                        He showed mercy on them. But mercy does not mean allowing this sort of ignorant behavior to continue (lest the later generations fall into this too). So he taught them a lesson, and his teaching matched the gravity of what they had done.

                        This hadith is telling us to always consult those people of knowledge and authority and to ask them in order to ward of ignorance. When your boiler breaks down, if you do not know how to fix it you call the technician - you do not try to fix it yourself. If it then breaks down (due to your incompetance), whose fault is it?

                        Questioning Allah
                        Subhannallah there is a beautiful Surah of the Quran known as Surah al-Kahf. I recommend you listen to some tafsir of it. In it is the true story of Musa Alayhis Salam and Khidr Alayhis Salam, a story which teaches us about divine wisdom and how we may fail to understand his wisdom due to our being human. Because we as beings are limited is pointless to question our lord whose wisdom is limitless - and this is demonstrated in the story.

                        Insha'Allah I hope Allah increases both me and you in knowledge and yaqeen (certainty).

                        -Ma'as Salama

                        (I apologise for spelling/grammatical errors, just eaten Sehri and am quite tired)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Regarding the rating of the hadith I was talking about above, the next hadith 337 is the same with minor omission and al-Albani rates it Hasan with no further comment. According to the website you are citing, it is "Sahih Hadith" - so even if the hadith you quoted was Da'if (and that website does not state who is authenticating the ahadith), it would only be that matn/isnad variation (336).

                          If you want to know for sure the rating of those two hadith I would recommend this website.

                          But as a general rule of thumb if al-Albani (who is understood to be excessively strict) rates it hasan then my understanding would be that it is authentic. We should be careful of labelling authentic hadith as Da'if (and vice versa of course).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                            OK, the hadeeth seems straightforward to me.

                            They gave a ruling out of ignorance which caused the man to die. One of the lessons we learn is the danger of speaking without knowledge.

                            Ghusl (bath).
                            Only if there's discharge though, but I'll assume it was a wet dream and maybe the meaning was lost in translation.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                              Rating of the Hadith
                              To my knowledge (and my knowledge is little), Abu Dawud Rahimullah doesn't really rate his own Hadith, as Imam Tirmidhi Rahimullah does, so any rating you read next to the hadith is given by a certain Muhaddith (of earlier times e.g. al-Hakim al-Nishapuri Rahimullah, ad-Dhahabi Rahimullah or of later times e.g. Nuruddin Itr Rahimullah, Al Albani etc.) who is not the author of the collection. There may be differences in grading between the Muhaditheen.

                              Could you provide a reference for who is rating this Hadith Da'if (weak)?

                              The only reason I say this is that it caught my eye that apparently al-Albani says it is "Hasan" and al-Albani is typically said to be overly harsh in rating hadith (some accuse him of weaking sahih hadith found in sihah sittah) - so for him to rate it "Hasan" and the rating you have shown to be "Da'if" seems like a strange contradiction to me. Perhaps I have misunderstood the terminology of al-Albani? Could someone correct me on this?



                              Problematic Hadith
                              I use to feel the same as you did not long ago, I would question hadith based on my own idea of right and wrong.

                              We cannot rely on our understanding of right and wrong as it is subjective and influenced by the society and age we are raised in. To critique the objective with the subjective is a logical fallacy. Breaking the barrier and foregoing the social conditioning you undergone in childhood is a difficult process, but once you do this you can see things for how they truly are and you can analyse and critique your own subjective understanding and the understanding your society has. If we cannot do this we will be unable to know the wrongs of our society.

                              E.g.

                              Imagine a society which incourages Xenomelia - a mental disorder where the patient wishes to remove a limb. Such a society views this as a natural urge that some people will have a devolop (and they are not wrong - but does that mean we should incourage them to dismember their limbs?)

                              Now you are a Muslim in such a society and your body is inviolable - how do you deal with the fact that you have been taught from a young age that this is completely normal, natural and above all moral, but you find e.g. the Muslim scholars stating that it is immoral to cut off your hand (you would feel your scholars are immoral and in the wrong) and the conversely, the Prophet Alayhis Salam allowed the dismembering of the hand of the thief as punishment. "How unfair and unjust" such a person from such a society might think - that Rasulallah Salallahu Alayhi Was-Salam's teachings do not allow one to consentially take his limb when he is born with a desire to do so, but allows the taking of the limb of someone as a punishment for a crime (the one who wants it doesn't get it and the one who does not want it gets it).

                              So we realise that if we base our judgements of the objective (the Quran, the Shariah, the statements and the Sunnah) by the subjective we may never come to true guidance, we will only be capable of agreeing where our societal upbringing is congruent with the teachings of Islam and, unless you are born in an Islamic society during Khilafah, this is never the case. The Mushriks of Makkah lamented that Islam puts them on the same social footing as freed slaves and the low people of society, they thought buryng their daughters was normal, they thought doing tawaf naked was holy...

                              If you were in that society and you based your judgements of something meant to be objective truth for all society off of what you were taught in that society, you might end up being no better than them.

                              The Wisdom of this Particular Hadith
                              In most modern societies, medical malpractice is seen as blameworthy. Manslaughter is a crime in most societies (where you accidentally kill someone). What is quite surprising here for me is that Rasulallah Alayhis Salatu was-Salam does not take any action against them apart from saying (translation/interpretation) "May Allah Kill them". Everyone will die, Allah will kill all of us for he is the bringer of Death, Rab al-Maut (this is not a nullification of asbab).

                              An Analogy:

                              If someone comes to you and asks should he take the red pill or the blue pill, and you are a layperson who knows a doctor is nearbye, yet instead of asking that authority you give them the judgement that you should take the blue pill as (generally) red is a bad color. Now sed person dies. Are you not blameworthy? Why didn't you consult the doctor?

                              Rasulallah Alayhis Salam in our case is the doctor.

                              If I personally had known that you had given this advice to my relative I would be furious, I would likely sue you for basically killing my relative. But does Rasulallah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam enact Qisas or ask for the Diyah to be given?

                              [Perhaps he did but it is not found in this hadith.]

                              He showed mercy on them. But mercy does not mean allowing this sort of ignorant behavior to continue (lest the later generations fall into this too). So he taught them a lesson, and his teaching matched the gravity of what they had done.

                              This hadith is telling us to always consult those people of knowledge and authority and to ask them in order to ward of ignorance. When your boiler breaks down, if you do not know how to fix it you call the technician - you do not try to fix it yourself. If it then breaks down (due to your incompetance), whose fault is it?

                              Questioning Allah
                              Subhannallah there is a beautiful Surah of the Quran known as Surah al-Kahf. I recommend you listen to some tafsir of it. In it is the true story of Musa Alayhis Salam and Khidr Alayhis Salam, a story which teaches us about divine wisdom and how we may fail to understand his wisdom due to our being human. Because we as beings are limited is pointless to question our lord whose wisdom is limitless - and this is demonstrated in the story.

                              Insha'Allah I hope Allah increases both me and you in knowledge and yaqeen (certainty).

                              -Ma'as Salama

                              (I apologise for spelling/grammatical errors, just eaten Sehri and am quite tired)
                              Wow, you've really put in a lot of effort into both of your posts, so thanks a lot. I'll reread these and think about it. Just adds to knowledge in case of others questioning things, as well as improving my own sincerity.

                              Comment

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