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Wahhabi claim: Belief in Rububiyya (lordship) of Allah: Muslims = Pagans

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  • #76
    Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post

    I've to say you lost me there as i don't believe in that distinction that you're utilising there. Tawheed is one it has no separate aspects like salafis believe, affirming the Oneness of Allah's Lordship also affirms the Oneness of Allah's Worship meaning the True Rabb is the True Ilah. None is deserving of worship or being assumed as divine except one who is the Lord. We do not worship except those who we believe to be a lord that benefits and harms and thus worship is but a result of lordship...
    This can only be true if you make no distinction between speech and action when it comes to beliefs and worship. Judging by what you have said so far, I assume you do make a distinction which is why your arguments are strange.

    ...So if one believes in an Ilah/god beside Allah then he/she cannot be free from Shirk ar-Rububiyyah, this fact is even acknowledged in the fatwa from islamqa. The moment shirk comes in it negates tawheed completely and a person's deeds, beliefs etc become worthless as Allah says in 39:65. How can you then ascribe "general tawheed" to such a person when Allah has already mentioned in His kitaab that they don't have any ?

    2 questions here;
    1. What do you mean by general tawheed stuff is academic ? do you mean that it has not relevance other than being purely theoretical or ?
    2. If shirk negates tawheed how is it possible to establish tawheed once it has been negated ie to say one has "general tawheed"
    When you affirm the negation effect that shirk has on tawheed, are you implying an incomplete negation ? i ask this as you continuously affirm that there's some parts of tawheed left enough to warrant the establishing of a "general tawheed" ...
    Academic in that the sense that end conclusion is the same - shirk.


    ...The point of contention is about the causes that lead a person to be classified as a mushrik. Salafi claim is that the mushrikeen were deemed so because they only committed shirk in tawheed uluhiyyah as they say that mushrikeen had tawheed in rububiyyah. We say they are mushriks because they had shirk in all aspects of tawheed. This is the major difference between salafis and the classical sunni position. How can people who commit shirk in the Oneness of Allah's Lordship be equal to those who don't do such a thing ?...
    Again, you would have a point if anyone claimed there was equality but you seem to be projecting again.

    ...According to the salafis it certainly does, they use this "general tawheed" of the mushriks as evidence to establish the claim that tawheed rububiyyah isn't sufficient for an individual to be called a muslim. They say this is why you need tawheed uluhiyyah...
    Explain, with sources, the classification of 'lesser shirk' with regards to the mushrik Arabs.

    ...How can people who commit shirk in the Oneness of Allah's Lordship be equal to us muslims who don't do this ? How can a christian who believes that Isa (peace be upon him) is a Lord with Allah be similar to us muslims ?...
    See above. Quotes sources where it says Muslims and Christians/mushriks are equal to Muslims.

    ...This belief of affirming "general tawheed" to mushriks and kafirs is indeed without a doubt an innovated belief introduced to the deen, it distorts the definition and meaning of tawheed as stated in the Quran and Sunnah. It's a bidah that eats away at the core of tawheed and erodes it...
    Completely disingenuous.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
      ...On a general note: There is really no point in discussing with AA. He's dishonest and not interested in the truth.
      Add to this: He's known to troll around - while being a mod! - and this is known to ALL people on this forum. Don't waste your time on him. I'm surprised that he hasn't insulted you yet, because he usually does this quite easily...
      What a plonker.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
        ...On a general note: There is really no point in discussing with AA. He's dishonest and not interested in the truth.
        Add to this: He's known to troll around - while being a mod! - and this is known to ALL people on this forum. Don't waste your time on him. I'm surprised that he hasn't insulted you yet, because he usually does this quite easily...
        Don't worry, he's not exactly a stranger on here.

        ;-)

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
          This can only be true if you make no distinction between speech and action when it comes to beliefs and worship. Judging by what you have said so far, I assume you do make a distinction which is why your arguments are strange.
          What you fail to understand is that Rabb & Ilah are inclusive of each other, when you affirm one you affirm the other as well. When a kafir takes the shahadah do they become a muslim after saying it or after praying salah etc ? When Allah took the covenant from all people by asking them ‘“Am I not your Lord?” and they replied “Yes”’ (7:172) ‘did it include the worship of Allah ? Yes, but did they perform any actions of worship at that time when bearing that testimony ? You're conflating a number of issues here

          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
          Academic in that the sense that end conclusion is the same - shirk.
          Why not call it shirk instead of calling " general tawheed" is shirk somehow synonymous with tawheed now ?


          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
          Again, you would have a point if anyone claimed there was equality but you seem to be projecting again.
          Projecting what exactly ? Don't salafis claim that the mushrikeen, jews, christians all had tawheed rububiyyah ? in fact miaw claims in his books that the muslims whom he declared to be mushriks only affirmed tawheed rububiyyah just like the mushrikeen. They only knew from tawheed what the mushrikeen knew etc

          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
          Explain, with sources, the classification of 'lesser shirk' with regards to the mushrik Arabs.
          Why should that when the shirk in discussion is major shirk ?


          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

          See above. Quotes sources where it says Muslims and Christians/mushriks are equal to Muslims.
          When salafis claim that muslims, jews, christians, mushrikeen of quraysh all have tawheed rububiyyah, they're claiming that we all have established the Oneness of Allah's Lordship. Meaning we're equal when it comes to this aspect.The claim is obviously false as it's only us muslims that have this tawheed, it's also the reason why you reacted to it, as you know for a fact that all the other groups have committed shirk in the aspect of tawheed.

          This similarity is then used as evidence to establish the need for tawheed uluhiyyah as according to them this aspect is what distinguishes the muslims from the rest. The evidence is there from the islamqa website and even on this thread

          This Tawheed – i.e., Tawheed al-Ruboobiyyah – is not denied by anyone of the sons of Adam. No one says that the world has two creators who are equal. No one argued with the idea of Tawheed al-Ruboobiyyah except Pharaoh, who denied it out of arrogance and stubbornness and even claimed – may Allaah curse him – to be the Lord

          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
          Completely disingenuous.
          It's not as you lot are affirming tawheed to people who commit shirk. is this not bidah and distortion of what tawheed stands for ?

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post

            What you fail to understand is that Rabb & Ilah are inclusive of each other, when you affirm one you affirm the other as well. When a kafir takes the shahadah do they become a muslim after saying it or after praying salah etc ? When Allah took the covenant from all people by asking them ‘“Am I not your Lord?” and they replied “Yes”’ (7:172) ‘did it include the worship of Allah ? Yes, but did they perform any actions of worship at that time when bearing that testimony ? You're conflating a number of issues here...
            Is someone who says the shahadah a Muslim if they don't pray salah at all but continue saying the shahadah? Hope you're not one of those 'Islam is in the heart' folk.



            ...Why not call it shirk instead of calling " general tawheed" is shirk somehow synonymous with tawheed now ?
            For the umpteenth time, it is called shirk. They are referred to as polytheists. This is silly and boring now.

            ...Projecting what exactly ? Don't salafis claim that the mushrikeen, jews, christians all had tawheed rububiyyah ? in fact miaw claims in his books that the muslims whom he declared to be mushriks only affirmed tawheed rububiyyah just like the mushrikeen. They only knew from tawheed what the mushrikeen knew etc...
            You are trying your best (but failing) to project the idea that Muslims believe mushrikeen are - or even can be - equal to Muslims. Nobody claims this but you are putting the idea out anyway in a dishonest way.

            ...Why should that when the shirk in discussion is major shirk ?...
            Comprehension problem? You said 'general tawheed' lessened the severity of shirk according to Salafis. Bring the quotes where they say that shirk is 'lesser' or that punishment is reduced due to 'general tawheed' etc.

            ...When salafis claim that muslims, jews, christians, mushrikeen of quraysh all have tawheed rububiyyah, they're claiming that we all have established the Oneness of Allah's Lordship. Meaning we're equal when it comes to this aspect.The claim is obviously false as it's only us muslims that have this tawheed, it's also the reason why you reacted to it, as you know for a fact that all the other groups have committed shirk in the aspect of tawheed...
            Just a moment ago you said there are no aspects to tawheed but now you're saying they have committed shirk in an aspect of tawheed. Comprehension issues again?

            ...It's not as you lot are affirming tawheed to people who commit shirk. is this not bidah and distortion of what tawheed stands for ?
            No, it's just you thinking you've done something.

            Comment


            • #81
              [QUOTE=Abu 'Abdullaah;n12729454]Is someone who says the shahadah a Muslim if they don't pray salah at all but continue saying the shahadah? Hope you're not one of those 'Islam is in the heart' folk.

              That part comes after the testimony of faith does it not ? When you responded to my initial statement it was dealing about classification of tawheed, where i specifically stated tawheed is one and that the True Rabb is the True Ilah ie Rabb & Ilah are inclusive of each other not separate as salafis believe. I don't know why you then started to talk about speech and action and assumed i was making a distinction or not etc.

              When people worship a god/ilah they do so on the basis of believing that the ilah they're worshipping has powers of divinity. If the worshippers believed that their god lacked the power and ability to grant and fulfil their needs etc they wouldn't worship them at all nor would they consider that deity/being/person to be a god. This is why Rabb and Ilah are inclusive of each not separate, so when a person takes and ilah besides Allah they take that ilah as their rabb as well. Meaning it's impossible for an individual to affirm the Oneness of Allah's Lordship and then worship another ilah besides Allah. Such a person has already an incorrect belief when it comes to Oneness of Allah's Lordship which is why they worship other besides Allah.




              Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

              For the umpteenth time, it is called shirk. They are referred to as polytheists. This is silly and boring now.
              Then refer to it as such instead of affirming that a person can have a " general tawheed"

              Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
              You are trying your best (but failing) to project the idea that Muslims believe mushrikeen are - or even can be - equal to Muslims. Nobody claims this but you are putting the idea out anyway in a dishonest way.
              I quoted from islamqa where they explicitly say none from the offspring of Adam denied or argued with the idea of tawheed rububiyyah except pharaoh. Is this not claiming that ( except for pharaoh and a few others ) the vast majority of people share the same belief when it comes to this aspect of tawheed ? where is the dishonesty ? if anything it's you who's refusing to acknowledge what they're affirming in the fatwa about this

              This Tawheed – i.e., Tawheed al-Ruboobiyyah – is not denied by anyone of the sons of Adam. No one says that the world has two creators who are equal. No one argued with the idea of Tawheed al-Ruboobiyyah except Pharaoh, who denied it out of arrogance and stubbornness and even claimed – may Allaah curse him – to be the Lord
              Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
              Comprehension problem? You said 'general tawheed' lessened the severity of shirk according to Salafis. Bring the quotes where they say that shirk is 'lesser' or that punishment is reduced due to 'general tawheed' etc.
              When mushrikeen who're commit shirk that negates any tawheed they have, are affirmed as having a "general tawheed" what's this ? are they not trying to downgrade their shirk by claiming that they still retain tawheed after committing shirk ? Allah tells us explicitly in His kitaab 39:65 that when people associate others with Him their actions & deeds are rendered null and void, how in the world can a muslim then affrim any tawheed to such people ?

              Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
              Just a moment ago you said there are no aspects to tawheed but now you're saying they have committed shirk in an aspect of tawheed. Comprehension issues again?
              Why would i affirm the salafi classification when i don't believe in it. I specifically state when "salafis claim" at the beginning of that quote, merely stating that they committed shirk in this aspect of tawheed is not an indication of support nor approval of the salafi classification. When i use the salafi classification it's to for the purpose of clarification and discussion only not that i believe in it. In fact i've used it consistently throughout our discussion yet you're only pointing it out now what changed ? why is it now an issue all of a sudden ?

              That was besides the point as what was important was disproving the salafis when they claim that muslims, mushrikeen etc shared similar beliefs when it came to the Oneness of Allah's Lordship. Just like the above quote from islamqa, salafis claim that the vast majority of bani adam believe in tawheed rububiyyah and we only differed when it came to tawheed uluhiyyah.

              I don't see any benefit in continuing any further so let's agree to end it here Inshallah





              Comment


              • #82
                Did the Prophets - peace be upon them - call to the Lordship of Allah ta'ala?:
                Salih al-Fawzan vs al-Qur`an al-karim

                Salih al-Fawzan - one of the modern leaders of the fake "Salafi" movement and a servant of the "Saudi" state - said regarding the statement "وهذا التوحيد هو معنى قوله: لا إله إلا الله" from the Kashf al-Shubuhat [of the heretic liar Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH)] the following:

                أي معنى لا إله إلا الله هو توحيد الألوهية لا توحيد الربوبية لأنه لو كان معناها توحيد الربوبية لما قال الرسول - صلى الله عليه وسلم - للمشركين قولوا لا إله إلا الله لأنهم يقولون إن الله هو الخالق الرازق المحيي المميت وإنه حينئذٍ يطلب منهم ما هو تحصيل حاصل ويقاتلهم على شيء يعترفون به ويقرون به؛ وهذا القول باطل

                So the meaning of "La ilaha illa Allah" ("There is no god but [one] God") is Tawhid al-Uluhiyya (monotheism of divinity) and NOT Tawhid al-Rububiyya (monotheism of lordship), because if the meaning would be Tawhid al-Rububiyya when the Messenger - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - said to the pagans "say: There is no god but [one] God." - while they were [already] saying that Allah is the Creator, the Sustainer, the Giver of Life and the Bringer of Death - and that he would ask them in this case for something that was already fulfilled and fight them for something that they were already accepting, then this statement is wrong.
                - end of quote -

                So the above creature claims that the Prophets - peace and blessings be upon them - did not call to the Lordship of Allah ta'ala. Let's see whether this claim is correct:



                This is what Yusuf (peace be upon him ) stated when he has in prison - as mentioned in the book of Allah ta'ala:

                { قَالَ لَا يَأْتِيكُمَا طَعَامٌ تُرْزَقَانِهِ إِلَّا نَبَّأْتُكُمَا بِتَأْوِيلِهِ قَبْلَ أَن يَأْتِيَكُمَا ۚ ذَ‌ٰلِكُمَا مِمَّا عَلَّمَنِي رَبِّي ۚ إِنِّي تَرَكْتُ مِلَّةَ قَوْمٍ لَّا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَهُم بِالْآخِرَةِ هُمْ كَافِرُونَ }
                { وَاتَّبَعْتُ مِلَّةَ آبَائِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ ۚ مَا كَانَ لَنَا أَن نُّشْرِكَ بِاللَّهِ مِن شَيْءٍ ۚ ذَ‌ٰلِكَ مِن فَضْلِ اللَّهِ عَلَيْنَا وَعَلَى النَّاسِ وَلَـٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَشْكُرُونَ }
                { يَا صَاحِبَيِ السِّجْنِ أَأَرْبَابٌ مُّتَفَرِّقُونَ خَيْرٌ أَمِ اللَّهُ الْوَاحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ }
                { مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِهِ إِلَّا أَسْمَاءً سَمَّيْتُمُوهَا أَنتُمْ وَآبَاؤُكُم مَّا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ بِهَا مِن سُلْطَانٍ ۚ إِنِ الْحُكْمُ إِلَّا لِلَّهِ ۚ أَمَرَ أَلَّا تَعْبُدُوا إِلَّا إِيَّاهُ ۚ ذَ‌ٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَـٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ }

                { He said: The food which ye are given (daily) shall not come unto you but I shall tell you the interpretation ere it cometh unto you. This is of that which my Lord hath taught me. Lo! I have forsaken the religion of folk who believe not in Allah and are disbelievers in the Hereafter. }
                { And I have followed the religion of my fathers, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. It never was for us to attribute aught as partner to Allah. This is of the bounty of Allah unto us (the seed of Abraham) and unto mankind; but most men give not thanks. }
                { O my fellow-prisoners! Are divers lords better, or Allah the One, Almighty? }
                { Those whom ye worship beside Him are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers. Allah hath revealed no sanction for them. The decision rests with Allah only, Who hath commanded you that ye worship none save Him. This is the right religion, but most men know not. }

                [12:37-40]


                Conclusion: What al-Fawzan claimed is an open and direct rejection of the Qur`an al-karim (the above is just one example out of many!) and therefore a type of disbelief!
                The Prophets - peace and blessings be upon them all - called to the Lordship and Divinity of Allah ta'ala at the same time, because Lordship and Divinity are connected to each other and necessitate each other and can not be separated from each other.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post
                  Anyone who went against him in any way was a mushrik, even those who were previous allies of him like the people of Huraymila.

                  Brother do you have a pdf where you've gathered everything together ?
                  Sorry for the late reply. I don't have a pdf, but I've a thread on this:
                  "Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's lack of qualifications and the disasters that resulted from it!"

                  I added the following comment now to the above thread, so that it becomes easier to find the posts that are important:

                  __________

                  Table of contents (3-10-2020):

                  - OP (includes examples of IAW's shocking level of ignorance): Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's (d.1206 AH) lack of qualifications and the disasters that resulted from it!
                  - The results of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's ignorance and extreme ideas on a theoretical level (includes Takfir against scholars, cities, whole regions and basically the whole Umma!):
                  Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
                  - The results of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's ignorance and extreme ideas on a practical level (includes terrorizing, robbing, burning down fields, cutting trees and mass-killing the Muslims of the Arabian peninsula and surrounding regions; Part 12 is specifically regarding what they did to the people of the Haramayn al-Sharifayn and their stopping of the Hajj!):
                  Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13
                  - Different examples of stealing, killing and destruction caused by Wahhabis according to 'Unwan al-Majd
                  - Translations of some of the examples given on the theoretical and practical results of MIAW's extremism and ignorance


                  - Proving that the scholars were truthful regarding Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and that IAW himself was the liar!
                  - Proving that "islamqa(.)info" are liars like their leader MIAW!
                  - Proving that the "Salafi" Mashayikh are liars just like their leader MIAW!


                  - The knowledge of the people of Washm regarding their Creator and the ignorance of IAW's followers regarding Him!
                  - MIAW usage of fabricated narrations in his so called Kitab al-Tawhid


                  - 'Allama Ibn Suhaym al-Hanbali (d. 1181 AH) regarding the extremism of IAW
                  - 'Allama al-Saffarini al-Hanbali (d. 1188 AH) regarding IAW being a Mujtahid in destroying the divine law!
                  - 'Allama Muhammad bin Sulayman al-Kurdi al-Shafi'i (d. 1194 AH) advising his student IAW to stop his Takfir against the Umma of Islam
                  - Shaykh Sulayman bin 'Abd al-Wahhab al-Hanbali (d. 1208 AH): Some of his statements in response to the ignorance of his brother IAW
                  - 'Allama 'Abdullah bin Dawud al-Hanbali (d. 1225 AH) regarded IAW a FALSE PROPHET in his "Lightnings and Thunders in Response to the Wretched Ibn Sa'ud"
                  - 'Allama Ibn Humayd al-Hanbali (d. 1295 AH): Praising the father and brother of IAW and criticizing IAW as "the founder of the mission whose evil had spread across the horizon" and mentioning his attempt to assassinate his brother
                  - Shaykh Mustafa bin Ahmad al-Shatti al-Hanbali (d. 1348): Idolatry and its forms (contains criticism of MIAW by the 'Allama Hassan al-Shatti (d. 1274 AH))


                  - Regarding the Hadith of Najd and the tribulations that will appear from the East and its connection to MIAW's "Najdi call":
                  Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4
                  - Al-Lajna al-Da`ima admitting that Najd is included in the narrations regarding the tribulations and the horn of satan that would appear and emerge from the east!!!
                  - Ibn Bishr (d. 1288 AH) - the Najdi Khariji! - AFFIRMS that Najd has always been a place for tribulations!


                  To be continued insha`Allah...

                  __________

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                    Sorry for the late reply. I don't have a pdf, but I've a thread on this:
                    "Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's lack of qualifications and the disasters that resulted from it!"

                    I added the following comment now to the above thread, so that it becomes easier to find the posts that are important:

                    __________

                    Table of contents (3-10-2020):

                    - OP (includes examples of IAW's shocking level of ignorance): Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's (d.1206 AH) lack of qualifications and the disasters that resulted from it!
                    - The results of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's ignorance and extreme ideas on a theoretical level (includes Takfir against scholars, cities, whole regions and basically the whole Umma!):
                    Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
                    - The results of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's ignorance and extreme ideas on a practical level (includes terrorizing, robbing, burning down fields, cutting trees and mass-killing the Muslims of the Arabian peninsula and surrounding regions; Part 12 is specifically regarding what they did to the people of the Haramayn al-Sharifayn and their stopping of the Hajj!):
                    Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13
                    - Different examples of stealing, killing and destruction caused by Wahhabis according to 'Unwan al-Majd
                    - Translations of some of the examples given on the theoretical and practical results of MIAW's extremism and ignorance


                    - Proving that the scholars were truthful regarding Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and that IAW himself was the liar!
                    - Proving that "islamqa(.)info" are liars like their leader MIAW!
                    - Proving that the "Salafi" Mashayikh are liars just like their leader MIAW!


                    - The knowledge of the people of Washm regarding their Creator and the ignorance of IAW's followers regarding Him!
                    - MIAW usage of fabricated narrations in his so called Kitab al-Tawhid


                    - 'Allama Ibn Suhaym al-Hanbali (d. 1181 AH) regarding the extremism of IAW
                    - 'Allama al-Saffarini al-Hanbali (d. 1188 AH) regarding IAW being a Mujtahid in destroying the divine law!
                    - 'Allama Muhammad bin Sulayman al-Kurdi al-Shafi'i (d. 1194 AH) advising his student IAW to stop his Takfir against the Umma of Islam
                    - Shaykh Sulayman bin 'Abd al-Wahhab al-Hanbali (d. 1208 AH): Some of his statements in response to the ignorance of his brother IAW
                    - 'Allama 'Abdullah bin Dawud al-Hanbali (d. 1225 AH) regarded IAW a FALSE PROPHET in his "Lightnings and Thunders in Response to the Wretched Ibn Sa'ud"
                    - 'Allama Ibn Humayd al-Hanbali (d. 1295 AH): Praising the father and brother of IAW and criticizing IAW as "the founder of the mission whose evil had spread across the horizon" and mentioning his attempt to assassinate his brother
                    - Shaykh Mustafa bin Ahmad al-Shatti al-Hanbali (d. 1348): Idolatry and its forms (contains criticism of MIAW by the 'Allama Hassan al-Shatti (d. 1274 AH))


                    - Regarding the Hadith of Najd and the tribulations that will appear from the East and its connection to MIAW's "Najdi call":
                    Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4
                    - Al-Lajna al-Da`ima admitting that Najd is included in the narrations regarding the tribulations and the horn of satan that would appear and emerge from the east!!!
                    - Ibn Bishr (d. 1288 AH) - the Najdi Khariji! - AFFIRMS that Najd has always been a place for tribulations!


                    To be continued insha`Allah...

                    __________



                    Comment


                    • #85
                      The claim made by MiaW is ridiculous, just shows that he did not understand tawheed since he thought that simply believing that Allah created everything and has control over everything is sufficient for Tawheed Ar-Ruboobiyyah.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post
                        The claim made by MiaW is ridiculous, just shows that he did not understand tawheed since he thought that simply believing that Allah created everything and has control over everything is sufficient for Tawheed Ar-Ruboobiyyah.
                        Indeed, but it's worse than that. He calls the Christians - who regards Jesus (peace be upon him) to be God - as "monotheist in Lordship". And he calls the Makkan pagans as such and this while they claimed that angels are daughters of God. What kind of monotheism is this?


                        Allah ta'ala states:

                        { وَيُسَبِّحُ ٱلرَّعْدُ بِحَمْدِهِ وَٱلْمَلاَئِكَةُ مِنْ خِيفَتِهِ وَيُرْسِلُ ٱلصَّوَاعِقَ فَيُصِيبُ بِهَا مَن يَشَآءُ وَهُمْ يُجَٰدِلُونَ فِي ٱللَّهِ وَهُوَ شَدِيدُ ٱلْمِحَالِ }

                        { And the thunder proclaims His praise and so too the angels in awe of Him. He unleashes the thunderbolts and smites with them whom He wills; yet they dispute about God though He is great in might. }

                        [Al-Qur`an al-karim 13:13 with English interpretation]


                        The following is stated in Tafsir al-Jalalayn (translation found HERE) in its interpretation:

                        وَيُسَبِّحُ ٱلرَّعْدُ } هو ملك موكل بالسحاب يسوقه متلبساً { بِحَمْدِهِ } أي يقول: سبحان الله وبحمده { وَ } تسبح { ٱلْمَلاَئِكَةُ مِن خِيفَتِهِ } أي الله { وَيُرْسِلُ ٱلصَّوٰعِقَ } وهي نار تخرج من السحاب { فَيُصِيبُ بِهَا مَن يَشَآءُ } فتحرقه: نزل في رجل بعث إليه النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم من يدعوه فقال: مَن رسول الله؟ وما الله؟ أَمِن ذهب هو؟ أم مِنْ فضة أم مِنْ نحاس؟ فنزلت به صاعقة فذهبت بِقِحْفِ رأسه { وَهُمْ } أي الكفار { يُجَٰدِلُونَ } يخاصمون النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم { فِى ٱللَّهِ وَهُوَ شَدِيدُ ٱلْمِحَالِ } القوّة أو الأخذ

                        { And the thunder } — this is an angel who is in charge of the clouds driving them while he constantly { proclaims His praise } that is he says ‘Glory be to God through His praise’ subhāna’Llāh wa-bi-hamdihi { and so too the angels } proclaim His praise { in awe of Him } that is of God. { He unleashes the thunderbolts } — these are a fire which issues forth from the clouds — { and smites with them whom He wills } such that it burns that person this was revealed regarding a man to whom the Prophet had sent someone to invite to Islam and who said Who is the Messenger of God? And what is God? Is He made of gold or of silver or of copper? whereupon a thunderbolt came down on him and blew off the top of his head; { yet they } that is the disbelievers { dispute } argue with the Prophet { about God though He is great in might } in power or in the severity of His retribution.
                        - end of quote -


                        Note that the above incident can be found mentioned in an authentic report and the person struck by the thunderbolt was one of the leaders of the disbelievers and polytheists. And these are the people whom MIAW (d. 1206 AH) calls as "monotheists in Lordship", wallahul musta'an!

                        Just look at this ugly pagan question: "Is He made of gold or of silver or of copper?"

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                          Sorry for the late reply. I don't have a pdf, but I've a thread on this:
                          "Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's lack of qualifications and the disasters that resulted from it!"

                          I added the following comment now to the above thread, so that it becomes easier to find the posts that are important:

                          __________

                          Table of contents (3-10-2020):

                          - OP (includes examples of IAW's shocking level of ignorance): Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's (d.1206 AH) lack of qualifications and the disasters that resulted from it!
                          - The results of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's ignorance and extreme ideas on a theoretical level (includes Takfir against scholars, cities, whole regions and basically the whole Umma!):
                          Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
                          - The results of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's ignorance and extreme ideas on a practical level (includes terrorizing, robbing, burning down fields, cutting trees and mass-killing the Muslims of the Arabian peninsula and surrounding regions; Part 12 is specifically regarding what they did to the people of the Haramayn al-Sharifayn and their stopping of the Hajj!):
                          Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13
                          - Different examples of stealing, killing and destruction caused by Wahhabis according to 'Unwan al-Majd
                          - Translations of some of the examples given on the theoretical and practical results of MIAW's extremism and ignorance


                          - Proving that the scholars were truthful regarding Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and that IAW himself was the liar!
                          - Proving that "islamqa(.)info" are liars like their leader MIAW!
                          - Proving that the "Salafi" Mashayikh are liars just like their leader MIAW!


                          - The knowledge of the people of Washm regarding their Creator and the ignorance of IAW's followers regarding Him!
                          - MIAW usage of fabricated narrations in his so called Kitab al-Tawhid


                          - 'Allama Ibn Suhaym al-Hanbali (d. 1181 AH) regarding the extremism of IAW
                          - 'Allama al-Saffarini al-Hanbali (d. 1188 AH) regarding IAW being a Mujtahid in destroying the divine law!
                          - 'Allama Muhammad bin Sulayman al-Kurdi al-Shafi'i (d. 1194 AH) advising his student IAW to stop his Takfir against the Umma of Islam
                          - Shaykh Sulayman bin 'Abd al-Wahhab al-Hanbali (d. 1208 AH): Some of his statements in response to the ignorance of his brother IAW
                          - 'Allama 'Abdullah bin Dawud al-Hanbali (d. 1225 AH) regarded IAW a FALSE PROPHET in his "Lightnings and Thunders in Response to the Wretched Ibn Sa'ud"
                          - 'Allama Ibn Humayd al-Hanbali (d. 1295 AH): Praising the father and brother of IAW and criticizing IAW as "the founder of the mission whose evil had spread across the horizon" and mentioning his attempt to assassinate his brother
                          - Shaykh Mustafa bin Ahmad al-Shatti al-Hanbali (d. 1348): Idolatry and its forms (contains criticism of MIAW by the 'Allama Hassan al-Shatti (d. 1274 AH))


                          - Regarding the Hadith of Najd and the tribulations that will appear from the East and its connection to MIAW's "Najdi call":
                          Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4
                          - Al-Lajna al-Da`ima admitting that Najd is included in the narrations regarding the tribulations and the horn of satan that would appear and emerge from the east!!!
                          - Ibn Bishr (d. 1288 AH) - the Najdi Khariji! - AFFIRMS that Najd has always been a place for tribulations!


                          To be continued insha`Allah...

                          __________
                          If it's not too much, you should really consider filing them all together and make a PDF inshaaAllaah. So we can save these invaluable information without needing to have access to the internet. I've been trying to write notes down but it's a lot اللهم بارك. It's the only reason I keep coming back on here actually. جزاكم الله خيرا

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                            Indeed, but it's worse than that. He calls the Christians - who regards Jesus (peace be upon him) to be God - as "monotheist in Lordship". And he calls the Makkan pagans as such and this while they claimed that angels are daughters of God. What kind of monotheism is this?


                            Allah ta'ala states:

                            { وَيُسَبِّحُ ٱلرَّعْدُ بِحَمْدِهِ وَٱلْمَلاَئِكَةُ مِنْ خِيفَتِهِ وَيُرْسِلُ ٱلصَّوَاعِقَ فَيُصِيبُ بِهَا مَن يَشَآءُ وَهُمْ يُجَٰدِلُونَ فِي ٱللَّهِ وَهُوَ شَدِيدُ ٱلْمِحَالِ }

                            { And the thunder proclaims His praise and so too the angels in awe of Him. He unleashes the thunderbolts and smites with them whom He wills; yet they dispute about God though He is great in might. }

                            [Al-Qur`an al-karim 13:13 with English interpretation]


                            The following is stated in Tafsir al-Jalalayn (translation found HERE) in its interpretation:

                            وَيُسَبِّحُ ٱلرَّعْدُ } هو ملك موكل بالسحاب يسوقه متلبساً { بِحَمْدِهِ } أي يقول: سبحان الله وبحمده { وَ } تسبح { ٱلْمَلاَئِكَةُ مِن خِيفَتِهِ } أي الله { وَيُرْسِلُ ٱلصَّوٰعِقَ } وهي نار تخرج من السحاب { فَيُصِيبُ بِهَا مَن يَشَآءُ } فتحرقه: نزل في رجل بعث إليه النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم من يدعوه فقال: مَن رسول الله؟ وما الله؟ أَمِن ذهب هو؟ أم مِنْ فضة أم مِنْ نحاس؟ فنزلت به صاعقة فذهبت بِقِحْفِ رأسه { وَهُمْ } أي الكفار { يُجَٰدِلُونَ } يخاصمون النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم { فِى ٱللَّهِ وَهُوَ شَدِيدُ ٱلْمِحَالِ } القوّة أو الأخذ

                            { And the thunder } — this is an angel who is in charge of the clouds driving them while he constantly { proclaims His praise } that is he says ‘Glory be to God through His praise’ subhāna’Llāh wa-bi-hamdihi { and so too the angels } proclaim His praise { in awe of Him } that is of God. { He unleashes the thunderbolts } — these are a fire which issues forth from the clouds — { and smites with them whom He wills } such that it burns that person this was revealed regarding a man to whom the Prophet had sent someone to invite to Islam and who said Who is the Messenger of God? And what is God? Is He made of gold or of silver or of copper? whereupon a thunderbolt came down on him and blew off the top of his head; { yet they } that is the disbelievers { dispute } argue with the Prophet { about God though He is great in might } in power or in the severity of His retribution.
                            - end of quote -


                            Note that the above incident can be found mentioned in an authentic report and the person struck by the thunderbolt was one of the leaders of the disbelievers and polytheists. And these are the people whom MIAW (d. 1206 AH) calls as "monotheists in Lordship", wallahul musta'an!

                            Just look at this ugly pagan question: "Is He made of gold or of silver or of copper?"
                            What's this narration from Ibn Taymiyyah that najdis kept putting in their books? I remember i read it in one of MiaW books (Mufeed Al Mustafeed?):

                            "Whoever calls Ali is a kafir, and whoever doubts in his disbelief is a kafir"

                            They say ibn Taymiyyah said it, but so far I've never found it (not that I read much), even if he did say it then they have completely misunderstood it because Ibn Taymiyyah never went around calling his opponents who believed in istaghatha (asking the dead for help) mushriks or kafirs, let alone chain takfeer on it.....he was strongly against it though, no doubt.

                            Do you know anything about it?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                              Indeed. Barakallahu fik for your contribution in this thread.

                              On a general note: There is really no point in discussing with AA. He's dishonest and not interested in the truth.
                              Add to this: He's known to troll around - while being a mod! - and this is known to ALL people on this forum. Don't waste your time on him. I'm surprised that he hasn't insulted you yet, because he usually does this quite easily.

                              Anyways I would like to remind everyone that the original Najdi position is that the Makkan pagans accepted the Lordship of Allah ta'ala COMPLETELY WITHOUT ANY PARTNERS and I've already quoted three of their leaders:
                              - Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) - the founder of this sect - stated that the pagans "testified lordship (Rububiyya) completely for Allah"
                              - Ibn Baz (d. 1420 AH) - one of their leaders in the 20th century - stated that these pagans accepted Allah ta'ala as "being the lord (Rabb) of all and the Creator of the creation and its Sustainer and that He's perfect in his essence (Dhat), names (Asma`), attributes (Sifat) and actions (Af'al) and that he has no likeness, no rival and no equal"
                              - Salih al-Fawzan - one of their contemporary leaders - "the meaning of "La ilaha illa Allah" ("There is no god but [one] God") is Tawhid al-Uluhiyya (monotheism of divinity) and not Tawhid al-Rububiyya (monotheism of lordship)"

                              Note that the above claims made by these Najdis is in DIRECT and OPEN opposition to the Qur`an al-karim! These people mentioned above have no excuse, because all of them have read the Qur`an!


                              It's established from the book of Allah ta'ala that..:
                              - the pagans couldn't imagine how one God alone could exist (because they couldn't imagine how one God alone could be aware of the worship of all of His worshippers - as stated by Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) in his Tafsir - and preserve this big world - as stated by Imam al-Razi (d. 606 AH) in his Tafsir - and I've quoted the Aya with both explanations in the OP)
                              - the pagans had no conviction regarding Allah and whether He created everything and were ready to curse Allah if someone cursed their false gods and assigned a bigger portion for their false gods than for Allah and ascribed to Allah what they did not accept for themselves (i.e. daughters) and disbelieved in the resurrection, because they doubted the power of Allah
                              - the pagans doubted the knowledge of Allah and that He's All-hearing
                              - the pagans believed that Allah needs help to preserve and control the universe
                              - the pagans believed in the existence of gods besides Allah and explicitly stated this with their tongues
                              - the pagans ascribed daughters to Allah (and thereby them having a share in His lordship and divinity)
                              - the pagans believed in a type of intercession which happens without the permission of Allah
                              - the pagans believed that their "gods" could bring benefit and harm independently from Allah or alongside Allah
                              - etc.

                              As for the position of "islamqa":
                              It's a [failed] attempt to update and modify the original Najdi position - which entailed disbelieving in what is stated in the Qur`an al-karim regarding the pagans - by claiming that these pagans where "general monotheists regarding God's Lordship". Note that there is no such thing as "general monotheists in Lordship", because the moment someone ascribes characteristics of Lordship to other than Allah ta'ala - which according to the Qur`an these pagans were doing! - then such a person simply is polytheist and that's it!

                              Note that the reason why "islamqa" tries to make such a contradicting statement is to defend the Kufri Najdi position, because they want to be able to keep on justifying the Takfir and accusation of "Shirk akbar" against other Muslims. So this issue is clearly not a simple "academic division", but rather one based upon which they invent rulings and apply it to the people of Islam!

                              Note that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab - who is the source of all this evil - would address the scholars in his region and tell them basically that they're only accepting "Tawhid al-Rububiyya" and not "Uluhiyya" and are therefore upon the same Shirk as that of 'Amr bin Luhayy! So which "academic division" is this?!

                              Here an example:



                              This man was literally killing (!) Muslims based upon this Kufri (!) principle that he invented and established as a new religion (!) in order to kill the people of Islam!
                              Ye, what we have today is a third or even 4th wave watered down version of the najdi dawah.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Quran 9:31

                                They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

                                Allah says they took them as Lords then says worship right after it, thry go hand in hand.

                                Comment

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