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Wahhabi claim: Belief in Rububiyya (lordship) of Allah: Muslims = Pagans

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  • #16
    salam to all.
    This is a genuine and an honest question and IMO very related to the topic.
    i found this comment "ask yourself why you are muslim before someone else does and you don't have the answer" from
    https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/eh79d6/this_brother_works_hard_refuting_people_who_lie/

    with this spirit in mind, can someone tell me, why the polytheists of makkah believed Allah created them into this world for the first time but denied Allah will resurrect them in akhirat, for the second time?
    TIA.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by LiAnG View Post
      salam to all.
      This is a genuine and an honest question and IMO very related to the topic.
      i found this comment "ask yourself why you are muslim before someone else does and you don't have the answer" from
      https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/eh79d6/this_brother_works_hard_refuting_people_who_lie/

      with this spirit in mind, can someone tell me, why the polytheists of makkah believed Allah created them into this world for the first time but denied Allah will resurrect them in akhirat, for the second time?
      TIA.
      They weren't even certain that it was him who created them into the world in the first place, much like the atheists of today. Perhaps (Allah knows), this is why the creation of man, and his forming in the womb are mentioned several times in the Quran, and how it is emphasised that Allah created them. Secondly, even if they did believe that, there are many people (e.g. deists) who believe in One God yet still deny resurrection. So Allah gave examples, e.g. the resurrection of the land with rain.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
        ...
        They (i.e. the Wahhabiyya and modern day "Salafiyya") have thrown hundreds of Ayat behind their backs with this claim (as shall be shown) and have put the words of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab above those of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and his Messenger, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam. They have put enemity towards other Muslims into the heart of many laymen and their state has reached such a low that whenever they hear the word "Shirk" / "Kufr" or "Mushrikun" / "Kuffar" they think of other Muslims first and foremost and completely forget about the real polytheists and disbelievers.

        Let's first see what the leaders of the Wahhabiyya and "Salafiyya" exactly claimed.
        Both Wahabi and Salafi aren't ideal terms for the group you mentioned. Who is Al-Wahhab? That is Allah. Who are the Salaf? They are the pious earliest generations of Muslim. Are you saying that this group are the true followers of Allah or are comparable to the Salaf?

        No group from the Khalaf should delude themselves into thinking they are comparable to the Salaf, not any orthodox group nor any sect.

        As for the term Wahabi - this is based off the man from Najd known as Muhammad bin Abd al-Wahhab. Regardless of what one thinks of that man, his father, Abd al-Wahhab rahimullah, was pious. Should we insult him by naming a group after him? Worse, should we label a group with a name of Allah?

        We should find a better term. The classical scholars referred to this group as the Hashwiyyah. Another term you could use is one related to their geographic origin.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by LiAnG View Post
          @Abu Sulayman

          No conviction could very well explain why they rejected resurrection, which is the second-half of my confusion.

          For argument sake, if with conviction, do you know the explanation given why they rejected resurrection? Our experience tells us that creating things the first time is more difficult than doing it the second time.
          The reason for your confusion is that you're projecting our views as monotheists upon those pagans. Don't forget that these people (i.e. Arab pagans) were polytheists, who would even curse Allah ta'ala if one were to curse their false deities. So don't think that they viewed Allah ta'ala in the way we as Muslims view Him.

          Add to that: It has been already established through Ayat like { Rather they are in doubt, playing. } [44:9] and { Rather they are not certain. } [52:36] that they were not certain regarding Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, His Oneness and Him being the Creator of the heavens and the earth. The statement of the scholars of Tafsir has also been quoted and if you want to you can look up other Tafasir and you'll see that they're all basically saying the same.

          Remember also the very first Ayat in the opening post where the astonishment of the pagans is mentioned when they were confronted with the call to pure monotheism (Tawhid):

          { وَعَجِبُوۤاْ أَن جَآءَهُم مٌّنذِرٌ مِّنْهُمْ وَقَالَ ٱلْكَافِرُونَ هَـٰذَا سَاحِرٌ كَذَّابٌ }
          { أَجَعَلَ ٱلآلِهَةَ إِلَـٰهاً وَاحِداً إِنَّ هَـٰذَا لَشَيْءٌ عُجَابٌ }

          { And they were surprised that a Herald of Warning came to them from among themselves; and the disbelievers said, “He is a magician, a great liar!” }
          { “Has he made all the Gods into One God? This is really something very strange!” }

          [38:4-5]


          The reason for their astonishment here has been explained by scholars like Imam al-Tabari and Imam al-Razi:
          They said that these pagans could not understand how one god alone could hear and know the worship of every single worshiper and have enough knowledge and power to preserve this great and diverse world [and to respond to all their worship based upon this].
          This means that the pagans believed that there exist many gods, who take care of a different kind of creation. In their belief one being alone can not have all attributes of lordship at the same time, rather these attributes are shared by different beings / things and therefore they viewed these beings / things as being all worthy of worship.


          Add another very important point (which should answer your question): The pagans were anthropomorphists in their beliefs regarding those whom they regarded as gods (this includes their "supreme gods"). (In fact anthropomorphism is the basis for committing Shirk (polytheism) in the first place.)

          I'll give you an example: If a human being were to build a house and this hourse were to catch fire and burn to ashes, would this human being be able to rebuild this house with those ashes? The answer is of course: No, he wouldn't. Now since the pagans were anthropomorphists they thought in the same way regarding those whom they regarded as gods.

          Allah ta'ala says:

          { وَضَرَبَ لَنَا مَثَلاً وَنَسِيَ خَلْقَهُ قَالَ مَن يُحيِي ٱلْعِظَامَ وَهِيَ رَمِيمٌ }

          { And he invents an example for Us, while forgetting his own creation, saying, “Who is such that can revive the bones when they have completely rotted away?” }

          [36:78]

          Ponder on their question and then you should understand that their anthropomorphism regarding the divine lead them to ask this question. They thought that the rules that apply to the creation apply to the divine also.
          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 31-12-19, 03:51 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

            Both Wahabi and Salafi aren't ideal terms for the group you mentioned. Who is Al-Wahhab? That is Allah. Who are the Salaf? They are the pious earliest generations of Muslim. Are you saying that this group are the true followers of Allah or are comparable to the Salaf?

            No group from the Khalaf should delude themselves into thinking they are comparable to the Salaf, not any orthodox group nor any sect.

            As for the term Wahabi - this is based off the man from Najd known as Muhammad bin Abd al-Wahhab. Regardless of what one thinks of that man, his father, Abd al-Wahhab rahimullah, was pious. Should we insult him by naming a group after him? Worse, should we label a group with a name of Allah?

            We should find a better term. The classical scholars referred to this group as the Hashwiyyah. Another term you could use is one related to their geographic origin.
            Brother, the term "Wahhabi" simply means that someone is following [some or all of] the ideas of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH). This term has been used by major scholars like Imam al-Sawi (d. 1241 AH) and other than him. You'll find this term in quite early refutations of this group.
            In fact even an evil person like Sulayman bin Sahman (d. 1349 AH) - whom this group regards as a great scholar! - used this term for their own group and he has even written a book with the name al-Hadiyya al-Sunniyya wal Tuhfa al-Wahhabiyya al-Najdiyya.
            The term in itself is neutral and it is like the term "Qadiriyya" in reference to the followers of the Tariqa of Shaykh 'Abd al-Qadir (d. 561 AH). The thing that gave the term "Wahhabi" a negative connotation is the fact that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his early followers committed all kinds of crimes against other Muslims. (So the negative connotation is their own fault!)

            And yes I know that his father was a pious man. The same is true is regarding his brother, who was a Hanbali scholar like his father and upon the classical way.

            This term does not indicate that they're followers of al-Wahhab - subhanahu wa ta'ala - just like the term "al-Batiniyya" does not indicate that the Batini sect are the followers of al-Batin, jalla jalalahu.
            The term "Wahhabi" also does not indicate that they're followers of his father Shaykh 'Abd al-Wahhab bin Sulayman (d. 1158 AH?), just like when we mention the term "Hanbali" we're intending the followers of Imam Ahmad [bin Muhammad] bin Hanbal (d. 241 AH) and not his grandfather.

            As for the term "Salafi": The modern-day followers of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab use this term for themselves and I also don't think that they're deserving of this term. Of course they have no connection to the Salaf al-salih in reality and cannot even come up with a single chain of knowledge in any Islamic science that goes back to the early generation of Muslims, let alone to our beloved Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.

            As for the term "Hashwiyya": Yes, they have Hashwi beliefs, but they're worse than those Hashwiyya of the past (who in the view of early Najdis would also be disbelievers and polytheists like the rest of the Muslims!) and have additional wrong beliefs.

            The last term, which may indeed be the best one to use regarding them is: "Najdis".
            The reason is that their leader was from Najd and that this term is not just used by their opponents, but also by their own leaders (those of the past and those of today) without any objection.
            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 31-12-19, 05:01 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Question

              Did the polytheists of Makkah believe in Allaah's Oneness of Lordship? I read the fatwa of Shaykh Ibn Baz as well as Muhammed Ibn Abdul Wahab's fatwa in which he claimed that the Polytheists of Makkah believed in Allaah's Oneness of Lordship but did not singled out Allaah, The Exalted, in worship. Is this statement correct? If it is, then what about these verses: {37:158}, {6:164}, {12:39}, {3:80}, {39:29}, {30:28}, {23:91}, {11:54}? In these verses, Allaah condemns the polytheists for disbelieving in Allaah's uniqueness.




              Answer

              All perfect praise be to Allah, The Lord of the worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.

              First of all, it is important to know the difference between affirming Tawheed Ar-Ruboobiyyah (Oneness of Lordship) and affirming Tawheed Al-Uloohiyyah (Oneness of Worship).

              Affirming the Oneness of Lordship means to affirm that Allah is the only Creator and the only Provider and that there is no other creator or provider but Him. Affirming the Oneness of Worship means to affirm that Allah alone deserves to be worshiped.

              A person who affirms the Oneness of Lordship must also affirm the Oneness of Worship; otherwise, he is contradicting himself because the Creator and Provider is the only One Who deserves to be worshiped. So if a person worships other than Allah while affirming that Allah is the Creator and Provider, he is contradicting himself.

              This is exactly what happened to the Mushriks (polytheists) of Makkah; they affirmed that Allah is the Creator and Provider, yet they worshiped other gods besides Allah and did not affirm that Allah is the only One Who deserves to be worshiped.

              Allah says (what means): {If you asked them, "Who created the heavens and earth and subjected the sun and the moon?" they would surely say, "Allah." Then how are they deluded?} [Quran 29:61]

              Allah further says (what means): {And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, “Allah.” So how are they deluded?} [Quran 43:87]

              Allah also says (what means): {Say, “Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Or who controls hearing and sight and who brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and who arranges [every] matter?” They will say, “Allah,” so say, “Then will you not fear Him?” ?} [Quran 10:31]

              Ash-Shinqeeti said in Adhwaa’ Al-Bayaan (his book of interpretation of the Quran) in regard to interpreting the above verse, “When they affirmed His Lordship, Allah rebuked them for associating others with Him, by His saying {Then will you not fear Him?}”

              Allah informed us about the Mushriks that while they acknowledge the Lordship of Allah, they associate others with Him in worship; Allah says (what means): {And most of them believe not in Allah except while they associate others with Him.} [Quran 12:106]

              Ash-Shinqeeti said while interpreting this verse, “Ibn Abbaas, Al-Hasan, Mujaahid, ‘Aamir Ash-Sha’bi, and most interpreters of the Quran said, ‘The meaning of this verse is that most people, meaning the disbelievers, did not believe in Allah as the only Lord except while associating others with Him in worship. In other words, they confess that Allah is their Lord, their Creator, and the One Who disposes of their affairs, but they worship others with Him…’”

              Because affirming the Oneness of Lordship necessarily requires affirming the Oneness of Worship, sometimes the Lordship is mentioned (the term Rabb) in the Quran while what is meant by it is the Oneness of Worship (the term Ilaah). For example, Allah says (what means): {Say: Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things?} [Quran 6:164]

              The meaning is: is it other than Allah that I should take as Ilaah (a worshiped deity)?

              The Tafseer (exegesis) entitled Zahrat At-Tafaaseer reads:
              “Allah used the word Lord (Rabb) and did not use the word ‘Ilaah’ although what is intended is worship (Uloohiyyah), as the meaning is: should I take other than Allah as a worshiped deity while He is the Lord of all things. This is a reference to the concomitance of Ruboobiyyah and Uloohiyyah. They affirmed Lordship but they differentiated it from Worship. They believed that Allah is the Lord and Creator of everything, but they worshiped idols, and they used to say: {We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position.} [Quran 39:3]”

              Similar to this is the saying of Allah (which means): {O [my] two companions of prison, are separate lords better or Allah, the One, the Prevailing?} [Quran 12:39] Allah used the term Lord here, while what is intended is Ilaah, because the Lord is the One Who is worthy of worship.

              Al-Baghawi said about the above verse in his Tafseer, “{…Are separate lords}; meaning various Ilaahs; one made from gold, one from silver, another from iron; one is superior, one is intermediate, and another is inferior; they are different and cause neither harm nor benefit. So are these {better or Allah, the One, the Prevailing}”
              It is the same thing with the saying of Allah (which means): {Nor could he order you to take the angels and Prophets as lords. Would he order you to disbelief after you had been Muslims?[Quran 3:80]; meaning that the Prophet does not command you to worship anyone other than Allah, whether it be a sent Messenger or an angel, as stated by Ibn Katheer .

              Allah knows best.

              https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/34...ar-ruboobiyyah

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                ...
                First of all, it is important to know the difference between affirming Tawheed Ar-Ruboobiyyah (Oneness of Lordship) and affirming Tawheed Al-Uloohiyyah (Oneness of Worship).

                Affirming the Oneness of Lordship means to affirm that Allah is the only Creator and the only Provider and that there is no other creator or provider but Him. Affirming the Oneness of Worship means to affirm that Allah alone deserves to be worshiped.

                A person who affirms the Oneness of Lordship must also affirm the Oneness of Worship; otherwise, he is contradicting himself because the Creator and Provider is the only One Who deserves to be worshiped. So if a person worships other than Allah while affirming that Allah is the Creator and Provider, he is contradicting himself.

                This is exactly what happened to the Mushriks (polytheists) of Makkah; they affirmed that Allah is the Creator and Provider, yet they worshiped other gods besides Allah and did not affirm that Allah is the only One Who deserves to be worshiped.

                Allah says (what means): {If you asked them, "Who created the heavens and earth and subjected the sun and the moon?" they would surely say, "Allah." Then how are they deluded?} [Quran 29:61]
                ....
                In the above answer it is claimed that the Makkan pagans accepted the Lordship of Allah ta'ala [without any partners] and this claim is wrong and in contradiction to the clear-cut Ayat of the Qur`an al-karim and the explanation of the classical scholars as shown in the first 8 posts of this thread.

                This strict distinction between lordship (Rububiyya) and divinity (Uluhiyya) is also wrong.
                The Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - called to ONE Tawhid and this includes both the belief in the lordship and divinity of Allah ta'ala alone without any partners.
                In the Qur`an al-karim "Rabb" and "Ilah" are used as synonyms and that proves my point and is against your claim.

                What is correct is to say that [some or many] pagans of Makka accepted SOME attributes of lordship for Allah. But does that turn them into "monotheists regarding the lordship of Allah"? No, because they believe that OTHER BEINGS / THINGS have also SOME attributes of lordship. Based upon this they believed that many beings / things are worthy of worship. This is the point that you people have not understood.


                Let's repeat some of the beliefs of the Makkan pagans as shown by the Ayat:

                - They had no conviction (Yaqin) regarding Allah ta'ala, his Oneness and Him being the Creator of the heavens and the earth (I have quoted quite many classical scholars of Tafsir to prove this point and I can quote even more and this is also quite clearly understood from the mentioned Ayat).
                - They doubted his knowledge and thought that He does not know all their deeds.
                - They doubted his power and rejected the resurrection because of it.
                - They doubted that one god alone could exist without any partners and were astonished to hear the call to pure monotheism.
                - At the same time they were ready to curse Allah if one were to curse their false deities and they would ascribe a bigger portion to their false deities and in general give more respect to their false deities than to Allah.
                - They believed that their false deities could intercede without the permission of Allah or that Allah is obliged to accept their intercession.
                - They believed that Allah ta'ala has children and that the angels are daughters of Him.
                - They believed that there are protectors, guardians, helpers and supporters besides Allah or alongside Allah and that Allah is in need of helpers to preserve the world. They believed that those so called protectors, guardians, helpers and supporters could bring benefit and harm and worshipped them based upon this belief.

                All of the above beliefs are mentioned in the Qur`an al-karim regarding the pagans in a clear-cut manner, so how will you be able to reject them? Rejecting what has been stated by Allah ta'ala is disbelief so beware!

                And remember: The pagans believed that many beings / things are worthy of worship, BECAUSE they believed that many beings / things have [at least] some attributes of lordship.

                Is there any way to deny that the pagans ascribed attributes of lordship to other than Allah ta'ala after all those Ayat?

                Let's repeat what Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) said:

                حدثني محمد بن الحسين، قال: ثنا أحمد بن المفضل، قال: ثنا أسباط، عن السديّ: { قُلْ أغَيْرُ اللَّهِ أتَّخِذُ وَلِيًّا } قال: أما الوليّ: فالذي يتولونه ويقرون له بالربوبية

                Muhammad bin al-Husayn reported to me and said: Ahmad bin al-Mufadhdhal narrated and said: Asbat narrated from al-Suddi:
                [Regarding the Ayah] { Say, “Shall I choose as a supporter / protector someone other than Allah } he said: As for [the meaning of] al-Wali (protector / supporter): He's the one whom they take [as such] and affirm lordship (Rububiyya) (!!!) for him.

                - end of quote -

                Imam al-Tabari has a lot more quotes like this and mentions again and again that the Qur`an al-karim and the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - called the pagans to accept the sole lordship of Allah [without any partners] and to worship Him alone.
                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 01-01-20, 11:30 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                  This is exactly what happened to the Mushriks (polytheists) of Makkah; they affirmed that Allah is the Creator and Provider, yet they worshiped other gods besides Allah and did not affirm that Allah is the only One Who deserves to be worshiped.

                  Allah says (what means): {If you asked them, "Who created the heavens and earth and subjected the sun and the moon?" they would surely say, "Allah." Then how are they deluded?} [Quran 29:61]

                  Allah further says (what means): {And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, “Allah.” So how are they deluded?} [Quran 43:87]

                  Allah also says (what means): {Say, “Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Or who controls hearing and sight and who brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and who arranges [every] matter?” They will say, “Allah,” so say, “Then will you not fear Him?” ?} [Quran 10:31]
                  You're distorting the meaning of these Ayat in such a way that they contradict other Ayat. This methodology is wrong. Allah's book is free from any contradiction or mistake.

                  See what Imam al-Naysaburi (d. 728 AH) said:

                  قال { بل لا يوقنون } وذلك أنه حكى عنهم{ ولئن سألتهم من خلق السموات والأرض ليقولن الله } [لقمان: 25] فتبين أنهم في هذا الاعتراف شاكون إذ لو عرفوه حق معرفته لم يثبتوا له نداً ولم يحسدوا من اختاره للرسالة كما وبخهم عليه بقوله { أم عندهم خزائن ربك } حتى يختاروا للنبوة من أرادوه

                  [Allah ta'ala] says { rather they are not certain. } and He has narrated about them { and if you ask them, “Who created the heavens and the earth?” - they will surely answer, “Allah” } [31:25], so it has become clear that they're in doubt regarding what they admitted, because if they had known Him in reality they would have not attested a rival to Him and would have not envied the one whom He has chosen for messengership as He has scolded them for this with His statement { or do they have the treasures of your Lord? } [52:37] so that they can choose for prophethood whom they want.
                  - end of quote -

                  I've also quoted Imam Abu Hayyan (d. 754 AH) and Imam Abul Su'ud (d. 951 AH) saying the same as above. If it is wanted even more classical scholars can be quoted. (We should refer to classical and known Tafsir books here and not some that are not even 100 years old as your link does!)
                  Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 31-12-19, 09:56 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I posted the article (not my words) as I came across it. Not interested in having a discussion with sectarian clowns that argue in bad faith.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                      They weren't even certain that it was him who created them into the world in the first place, much like the atheists of today. Perhaps (Allah knows), this is why the creation of man, and his forming in the womb are mentioned several times in the Quran, and how it is emphasised that Allah created them. Secondly, even if they did believe that, there are many people (e.g. deists) who believe in One God yet still deny resurrection. So Allah gave examples, e.g. the resurrection of the land with rain.
                      i’ve looked up the word deism and found

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- noun

                      belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism).
                      belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.
                      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      The keyword is remained indifferent, unlike the polytheist of makkah who actively fought the Rasul.
                      Thanks anyway.

                      Still waiting for an explanation from bros/sis who believe polytheist of makkah believed Allah is the Creator of all things including themselves and yet they disbelieved resurrection (second creation).





                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                        The reason for your confusion is that you're projecting our views as monotheists upon those pagans. Don't forget that these people (i.e. Arab pagans) were polytheists, who would even curse Allah ta'ala if one were to curse their false deities. So don't think that they viewed Allah ta'ala in the way we as Muslims view Him.

                        Add to that: It has been already established through Ayat like { Rather they are in doubt, playing. } [44:9] and { Rather they are not certain. } [52:36] that they were not certain regarding Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, His Oneness and Him being the Creator of the heavens and the earth. The statement of the scholars of Tafsir has also been quoted and if you want to you can look up other Tafasir and you'll see that they're all basically saying the same.

                        Remember also the very first Ayat in the opening post where the astonishment of the pagans is mentioned when they were confronted with the call to pure monotheism (Tawhid):

                        { وَعَجِبُوۤاْ أَن جَآءَهُم مٌّنذِرٌ مِّنْهُمْ وَقَالَ ٱلْكَافِرُونَ هَـٰذَا سَاحِرٌ كَذَّابٌ }
                        { أَجَعَلَ ٱلآلِهَةَ إِلَـٰهاً وَاحِداً إِنَّ هَـٰذَا لَشَيْءٌ عُجَابٌ }

                        { And they were surprised that a Herald of Warning came to them from among themselves; and the disbelievers said, “He is a magician, a great liar!” }
                        { “Has he made all the Gods into One God? This is really something very strange!” }

                        [38:4-5]


                        The reason for their astonishment here has been explained by scholars like Imam al-Tabari and Imam al-Razi:
                        They said that these pagans could not understand how one god alone could hear and know the worship of every single worshiper and have enough knowledge and power to preserve this great and diverse world [and to respond to all their worship based upon this].
                        This means that the pagans believed that there exist many gods, who take care of a different kind of creation. In their belief one being alone can not have all attributes of lordship at the same time, rather these attributes are shared by different beings / things and therefore they viewed these beings / things as being all worthy of worship.


                        Add another very important point (which should answer your question): The pagans were anthropomorphists in their beliefs regarding those whom they regarded as gods (this includes their "supreme gods"). (In fact anthropomorphism is the basis for committing Shirk (polytheism) in the first place.)

                        I'll give you an example: If a human being were to build a house and this hourse were to catch fire and burn to ashes, would this human being be able to rebuild this house with those ashes? The answer is of course: No, he wouldn't. Now since the pagans were anthropomorphists they thought in the same way regarding those whom they regarded as gods.

                        Allah ta'ala says:

                        { وَضَرَبَ لَنَا مَثَلاً وَنَسِيَ خَلْقَهُ قَالَ مَن يُحيِي ٱلْعِظَامَ وَهِيَ رَمِيمٌ }

                        { And he invents an example for Us, while forgetting his own creation, saying, “Who is such that can revive the bones when they have completely rotted away?” }

                        [36:78]

                        Ponder on their question and then you should understand that their anthropomorphism regarding the divine lead them to ask this question. They thought that the rules that apply to the creation apply to the divine also.
                        i have nothing more to say but have to agree, but not like the polytheist of makkah had to accept that Allah is the creator of all things when most probably their arguments had been exhausted. Thanks.
                        maybe bro @Abu Abdullah would like to explain, why the polytheist of makkah believed Allah created them into this world the first time and yet denied Allah will create them the second time in akhirat. Experience tells us that creating the second time is much easier than the first time.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                          I posted the article (not my words) as I came across it. Not interested in having a discussion with sectarian clowns that argue in bad faith.
                          Well, you posted an article because you most likely agree with it. And even if that is not the case, then take it as answer to the article and not to you.
                          And: Believing and accepting the word of Allah ta'ala is not sectarianism, rather it is obligatory upon everyone. This issue is a clear-cut issue established by hundreds upon hundreds of Ayat and Ahadith, so there is no place for claims by people who have come more than 1000 years after the Hijra and are trying to act as if the belief of the pagans of the past was the same as that of Muslims or claiming that those pagans were better than most Muslims [throughout history].

                          The article uses the following Aya as a proof that the Makkan pagans accepted the lordship of Allah ta'ala [completely and without any partners]:

                          { وَمَا يُؤْمِنُ أَكْثَرُهُمْ بِٱللَّهِ إِلاَّ وَهُمْ مُّشْرِكُونَ }

                          { And most of them are such that they do not believe in Allah except while ascribing partners (to Him)! }

                          [12:106]

                          The answer to their claim is: These pagans that are mentioned in the above Aya accepted SOME attributes of lordship for Allah ta'ala, but still believed that their false deities deserved worship and this based upon their belief that their false deities have also SOME attributes of lordship.


                          Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) said in the Tafsir of the above Aya:

                          يقول تعالـى ذكره: وما يقر أكثر هؤلاء الذين وصف عزّ وجلّ صفتهم بقوله:{ وكأيِّنْ مِنْ آيَةٍ فِـي السَّمَواتِ والأرْضِ يَـمْرُّونَ عَلَـيْها وَهُمْ عَنْها مُعْرِضُونَ } بـالله، أنه خالقه ورازقه وخالق كلّ شيء، إلا وهم به مشركون فـي عبـادتهم الأوثان والأصنام، واتـخاذهم من دونه أربـابـاً، وزعمهم أنه له ولداً، تعالـى الله عما يقولون

                          [Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says: Most of those - whom He 'azza wa jall described with His statement { And how many signs exist in the heavens and the earth, over which most people pass and remain unaware of them! } [12:105] - do not confirm that Allah is their Creator, Sustainer, and the Creator of everything except while ascribing partners to Him by worshiping idols and taking them as lords (Arbab) (!) besides Him and claiming that He has offspring, [high] exalted is Allah above what they claim!
                          - end of quote -

                          Imam Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597 AH) mentioned three position to whom this Aya refers (the pagans, the christians or the hypocrites) and then he said:

                          فان قيل: كيف وصف المشرك بالإِيمان؟ فالجواب: أنه ليس المراد به حقيقة الإِيمان، وإِنما المعنى: أن أكثرهم، مع إِظهارهم الإِيمان بألسنتهم مشركون

                          If it is said: How did [Allah] describe the polytheist with belief (Iman)?
                          Then the answer is: Real belief is not intended here, rather the meaning is: That most of them - while displaying belief with their tongues - are ascribing partners [to Him].

                          - end of quote -

                          Imam al-'Izz bin 'Abd al-Salam (d. 660 AH) said:

                          مُّشْرِكُونَ } يقولون: الله ربنا وآلهتنا ترزقنا

                          { ascribing partners (to Him)! } [the pagans] said: Allah is our lord and our gods are our sustainers.
                          - end of quote -


                          Conclusion: From the above explanations we understand that real belief is not intended and that these polytheists still ascribed partners to Allah ta'ala in his lordship (as explicitly stated by Imam al-Tabari) and worshiped other than Him based upon this.
                          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 01-01-20, 11:26 AM.

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                          • #28
                            When Muslims start off a conversation with the word, Wahhabi, they shoot themselves in the foot
                            .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                            نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                            دولة الإسلامية باقية





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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
                              When Muslims start off a conversation with the word, Wahhabi, they shoot themselves in the foot
                              This allergy with the term "Wahhabi" is something that the Wahhabiyya of today themselves created in order to be called "Salafi" instead and because of all the negative connotations that this term is associated with thanks to the actions of the early Wahhabiyya themselves.
                              If you say that al-Wahhab is the name of Allah ta'ala, then the answer is: And so is al-Batin, but the scholars still used the term Batiniyya and likewise is true regarding the term Wahhabiyya.
                              This term simply indicates that one is a follower of [at least some of] the ideas of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab.
                              This has been already clarified in post number 20.

                              Anyways if you want to you can call them Najdis or even "Salafis" or whatever you want instead.
                              What is important here is to accept the word of Allah ta'ala and not to make up claims that clearly go against the divine texts.
                              Claiming that the pagans accepted the lordship of Allah ta‘ala completely and without any partners and that their belief regarding Allah was like that of Muslims is not a little mistake, rather it constitutes rejecting hundreds of Ayat and Ahadith.

                              Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 01-01-20, 12:01 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
                                When Muslims start off a conversation with the word, Wahhabi, they shoot themselves in the foot
                                It's not even that. This clown is nothing but a sectarian propagandist (not sure who or what he represents) but he crumbles under pressure when challenged with basic questions. He is not open and honest...
                                Last edited by Abu 'Abdullaah; 01-01-20, 03:53 PM.

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