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Wahhabi claim: Belief in Rububiyya (lordship) of Allah: Muslims = Pagans

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  • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

    Yes, by going against the Ijmaa of the learned Sahabah who learned directly from the prophet, they were going against Islam

    They are rightly labelled ahlul bidah.
    So you think the khawarij knew they were wrong but still continued as opposed to believing they were correct.

    This is a new one for me.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

      The issue that is discussed in this thread is really very clear and straightforward and it is not allowed for two Muslims to differ regrading it, so any so called "refutations" are not needed.

      There is a great difference between the creed of the people of Islam regarding Allah ta'ala and between the creed of the disbelievers and polytheists regarding Him subhanahu wa ta'ala.

      To give some examples:

      - The Christians believe that 'Isa ('alayhil salam) is God Almighty and the Lord, so they clearly are NOT monotheists regarding the Lordship of Allah ta'ala, but rather regard a Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) as Allah ta'ala Himself.
      ​​​​
      - The Greek pagans believed in the existence of many different gods with Zeus being one of their major gods in status and power, so they did also NOT believe in the Lordship of Allah ta'ala.

      - The ancient Egyptians pagans also believed in the existence of many different gods with Amun-Ra being one of the very powerful gods among them, so they also did NOT believe in Allah ta'ala.

      - The north European pagans believed also in the existence of different gods with Odin being one of the very powerful among them, so they also did NOT believe in Allah ta'ala.

      - The Arab pagans likewise believed in the existence of different gods and they were ready to curse Allah ta'ala if their so called gods were to be cursed and they doubted Allah ta'ala, His knowledge, His power to resurrect them and even disputed regarding Him (all of this established by clear Ayat!), so they were also NOT believers in Allah ta'ala NOR monotheists regarding His Lordship.

      - etc.

      The above is all established beyond doubt. Now compare this with the claim of that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH):

      فإذا تأمّلت هذا تأملا جيدًا، عرفت أنّ الكفار يشهدون لله بتوحيد الربوبية، وهو تفرّد بالخلق والرزق والتدبير

      So if you think about this well, you will know that the disbelievers testify the monotheism of Lordship for Allah and that is Him being exclusive in creating, sustaining and disposing [the universe].
      - end of quote -

      ​​​​​​This heretic also claimed that "the disbelievers testified lordship (Rububiyya) completely for Allah" ("الكفار يشهدون بالربوبية كلها لله").

      Now the ignorant people who follow this man will come up with some Ayat where it stated that if one where to ask the [Arab] pagans who created them they would answer Allah. This is no different to many people in our time who claim to believe in God and are in reality nothing but disbelievers in Him.
      The problem here is that they have thereby followed the footsteps of the Jews and have believed in some of the Book and disbelieved in some of it, while Allah ta'ala has commanded us to believe in ALL of it!

      Allah ta'ala also informs us that they were not certain regardind Him and that they disputed regarding Him and doubted His power to resurrect them and so on. He jalla jalaluhu also informed us how they took the angels, the jinn and some non-existent beings as gods besides Him.

      Additionally I would advice to read the following:
      Salam alaykum,

      Just to support what you wrote about Mushrikeen committing Shirk in Rububiyyah:


      https://www.islamimehfil.com/topic/2...comment-104085

      https://www.islamimehfil.com/topic/2...comment-104089

      https://www.islamimehfil.com/topic/2...#comment-95650

      https://www.islamimehfil.com/topic/2...#comment-95792

      https://www.islamimehfil.com/topic/2...comment-107052

      https://www.islamimehfil.com/topic/2...comment-110173

      https://www.islamimehfil.com/topic/2...comment-108785

      There is 8th article some where as well but I cant find link of it. Keep up the good work brother Abu Sulayman. May Allah reward you for all the good you're doing. Ameen.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

        I've watched many videos and read many articles trying to refute the Awni argument....none of them make sense....
        most of those videos by western duaat are terrible the only decent one is by bassam zawadi byt it is quite short and he only summarises parts of shaykh sultan al umayris work in refutation of awni

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
          So you think the khawarij knew they were wrong but still continued as opposed to believing they were correct.

          This is a new one for me.
          I never said they knew they were wrong.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

            most of those videos by western duaat are terrible the only decent one is by bassam zawadi byt it is quite short and he only summarises parts of shaykh sultan al umayris work in refutation of awni
            All I'm saying is that the opposing side has no consistent argument, I'll ask you here.

            What makes an action turn into ibaadah? let's say standing, or sujood or asking, or speaking, these are just acts, what makes them Ibaadah?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

              What?!

              Do you think people innovate or follow innovations believing they are against Islam?
              Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

              In a sense, yes.

              Take the Khawarij as an example, they went against all of the sahabi scholars (who at the time were the only knowledgeable ones of Islam) intentionally. Later, you also had philosophers and thinkers who went against the consensus of the line of scholars with their own thoughts and ideas.
              Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
              So you think the khawarij knew they were wrong but still continued as opposed to believing they were correct.

              This is a new one for me.
              Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

              I never said they knew they were wrong.
              Ignorance, trolling, or mental health?

              Sometimes it's difficult to tell.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                All I'm saying is that the opposing side has no consistent argument, I'll ask you here.

                What makes an action turn into ibaadah? let's say standing, or sujood or asking, or speaking, these are just acts, what makes them Ibaadah?
                yh i heard your arguments before your waiting for me to say intention

                but hadith says duaa is ibaadah

                Comment


                • Dear brothers and sisters,
                  Assalamu a’laikum,


                  Please note: Quotes/opinions from their (known/unknown) scholars, or from any respected scholars who (at some point in their lives) have been known to be ‘influenced’ by twisted ideology/philosophy/Kalaam (Jahmiyyah, Mu’tazilah, and even Ash’ariyyah...etc) will/must be ignored (Rahimahumullah, all of them)


                  First, what is the difference betyween Tawheedul-Uluhiyyah and Tawheedul-Rububiyyah… and why have the scholars of AhlusSunnah Wal Jamaah felt it was necessary to establish this distinction in Tawheed.


                  The meaning ofTawhid-ul-Rububiyyah (Oneness of Allah's Lordship) is the ascription of all Acts of Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) to none but Him Alone, such as: creation, bringing into being, providing sustenance, giving life, and causing death… and this is the Tawheed that is meant in those ‘clear’ Aayaat (verses), e.g.


                  [43:87] And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, "Allah." So how are they deluded?
                  [43:9] And if you should ask them, "Who has created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, "They were created by the Exalted in Might, the Knowing."
                  [39:38] And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, "Allah." Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah? If Allah intended me harm, are they removers of His harm; or if He intended me mercy, are they withholders of His mercy?" Say, "Sufficient for me is Allah; upon Him [alone] rely the [wise] reliers."
                  [10:31] Say, "Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Or who controls hearing and sight and who brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and who arranges [every] matter?" They will say, "Allah," so say, "Then will you not fear Him?"
                  [31:25] And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and earth?" they would surely say, "Allah." Say, "[All] praise is [due] to Allah "; but most of them do not know.


                  The meaning of Tawhid-ul-Uluhiyyah (think of it as Oneness of Worship) is the dedication of all acts of the servants to none but Allah Alone, such as: Du`a' (supplication), asking help, seeking refuge, fear, hope, reliance and all other forms of `Ibadah (worship).


                  So (just for the sake of) putting this notion simply, if you were to ask the kuffar of Quraish:


                  Question: Who created? Who provides sustenance?...etc ( Rububiyyah)
                  Kuffar’s answer: Allah (All the relevant verses confirm this response)


                  Question: Then will you dedicate all your acts of worship to Allah Alone? ( Uluhiyyah)
                  Kuffar’s answer: No (or Not without Medium Partners)


                  The Qur’anic verses illustrate this notion very clearly for all to see, however Abu Sulayman and his ancestors/scholars (lets just call them Ahlul Kalaam for now… to be polite… and to keep things civil) rejected it (the notion), and therefore it is they who rejected these verses (as we shall see), and got themselves and their followers in a twist and very confused… they then found themselves having to do Ta’weel (interpretation) of the verse in any way that will prove that they are right!! ...as you will see when his posts are looked at closely.


                  This (unwanted) confusion is what prompted the scholars of AhlusSunnah Wal Jama’ah (not for the first time, nor last unfortunately) to come to the rescue (Rahimahumullah, wa Jazahum ‘Anna Kulla Khair), and establish a clear distinction of what those Aayaat (verses) meant exactly… for the benefit of the confused layman.




                  Sorry this (introduction) was a bit long, but you need to understand the context and background… in order to see the endless loopholes/falsehood in these people’s way of thinking.



                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  ...

                  Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) said in his Tafsir regarding the Aya 38:5:

                  وقوله: { أجَعَلَ الآلِهَةَ إِلهاً وَاحِداً } يقول: وقال هؤلاء الكافرون الذين قالوا: مـحمد ساحر كذّاب: أجعل مـحمد الـمعبودات كلها واحداً، يسمع دعاءنا جميعنا، ويعلـم عبـادة كل عابد عبدَه منا { إنَّ هَذَا لَشَيْءٌ عُجابٌ }

                  With His [mentioning of their] statement { “Has he made all the Gods into One God?” } [Allah] is saying: These disbelievers - who claimed that "Muhammad is a magician, a liar" - said:
                  Has Muhammad turned all worshipped beings / things into One [God], who hears all our supplications and knows the worship of all his worshippers? { This is really something very strange! }.

                  - end of the quote -...
                  Here, you've shot yourself in the foot!... you've just proven that At-Tabari (Rahimahullah) confirms that the polytheists shirk/issue was with Uluhiyyah (as explained above, i.e acts of the servants,worship)...!!


                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  ... Based upon this they could not accept that one God alone without any partners would be deserving of all worship...
                  Another shot in the foot!... Correct! their problem is Uluhiyyah .

                  Comment


                  • Post No3


                    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                    The pagans of Makka had no conviction regarding Allah and whether He created everything


                    { رَبِّ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَآ إِن كُنتُم مُّوقِنِينَ }
                    { لاَ إِلَـٰهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ يُحْيِـي وَيُمِيتُ رَبُّكُمْ وَرَبُّ آبَآئِكُمُ ٱلأَوَّلِينَ }
                    { بَلْ هُمْ فِي شَكٍّ يَلْعَبُونَ }

                    { The Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; if you people believe. }
                    { There is no worship except for Him - He gives life and causes death; your Lord and the Lord of your forefathers. }
                    { Rather they are in doubt, playing. }

                    [44:7-9]

                    { أَمْ خُلِقُواْ مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ ٱلْخَالِقُونَ }
                    { أَمْ خَلَقُواْ ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَٱلأَرْضَ بَل لاَّ يُوقِنُونَ }

                    { Have they not been created from some source, or are they themselves the creators? }
                    { Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather they are not certain. }

                    [52:35-36]...
                    Wrong!!... Their uncewrtainty was not with the creation (Rububiyyah)... but with Resurrection/Day of Judgement... this is what At-Tabari says here:

                    ( أَمْ خَلَقُوا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأرْضَ ) يقول: أخلقوا السماوات والأرض فيكونوا هم الخالقين, وإنما معنى ذلك: لم يخلقوا السماوات والأرض,( بَل لا يُوقِنُونَ ) يقول: لم يتركوا أن يأتمروا لأمر ربهم, وينتهوا إلى طاعته فيما أمر ونهى, لأنهم خلقوا السموات والأرض, فكانوا بذلك أربابا, ولكنهم فعلوا, لأنهم لا يوقنون بوعيد الله وما أعدّ لأهل الكفر به من العذاب في الآخرة.

                    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                    ...The pagans of Makka were ready to curse Allah if someone cursed their false gods


                    { وَلاَ تَسُبُّواْ ٱلَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ فَيَسُبُّواْ ٱللَّهَ عَدْواً بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ كَذَلِكَ زَيَّنَّا لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ عَمَلَهُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّهِمْ مَّرْجِعُهُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُهُمْ بِمَا كَانُواْ يَعْمَلُونَ }

                    { Do not abuse those whom they worship besides Allah lest they become disrespectful towards Allah’s Majesty, through injustice and ignorance; likewise, in the eyes of every nation, We have made their deeds appear good - then towards their Lord they have to return and He will inform them of what they used to do. }

                    [6:108]...
                    Correct!!... you've just proven again that their problem is with the oneness of worship (Uluhiyyah, as explained in the previous post)... When are you gonna get to the point where they actually reject Rububiyyah (i.e. that Allah SWT is the One who created everything? and that He Provides Sustenance?)... I can't wait!


                    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                    ...The Makkan pagans disbelieved in the resurrection, because they doubted the power of Allah...
                    Deliberate false translation of Imam At-Tabari's comment!... As you can see below, the Imam was specific in saying: "...rejecting the ability / power of Allah to revive them...", thus you are suggesting that they reject all power of Allah swt, including that of Creation and Provision of Sustenance, which goes against the verses that I mentioned in my previous post.



                    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                    Imam al-Tabari said in his Tafsir regarding the above Ayat:

                    فـيقول: مَنْ يحيـي هذه العظام وهي رميـم؟ إنكاراً منه لقُدرة الله علـى إحيائها

                    So [man] said: “Who is such that can revive the bones when they have completely rotted away?”; thereby [this type of man is] rejecting the ability / power of Allah to revive them.
                    - end of quote -...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Passer_By View Post
                      Post No3




                      Wrong!!... Their uncertainty was not with the creation (Rububiyyah)... but with Resurrection/Day of Judgement... this is what At-Tabari says here:

                      ( أَمْ خَلَقُوا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأرْضَ ) يقول: أخلقوا السماوات والأرض فيكونوا هم الخالقين, وإنما معنى ذلك: لم يخلقوا السماوات والأرض,( بَل لا يُوقِنُونَ ) يقول: لم يتركوا أن يأتمروا لأمر ربهم, وينتهوا إلى طاعته فيما أمر ونهى, لأنهم خلقوا السموات والأرض, فكانوا بذلك أربابا, ولكنهم فعلوا, لأنهم لا يوقنون بوعيد الله وما أعدّ لأهل الكفر به من العذاب في الآخرة.



                      Correct!!... you've just proven again that their problem is with the oneness of worship (Uluhiyyah, as explained in the previous post)... When are you gonna get to the point where they actually reject Rububiyyah (i.e. that Allah SWT is the One who created everything? and that He Provides Sustenance?)... I can't wait!




                      Deliberate false translation of Imam At-Tabari's comment!... As you can see below, the Imam was specific in saying: "...rejecting the ability / power of Allah to revive them...", thus you are suggesting that they reject all power of Allah swt, including that of Creation and Provision of Sustenance, which goes against the verses that I mentioned in my previous post.

                      :P

                      Comment


                      • How do you:

                        1) Edit a post after you've posted it?
                        2) Delete a post after you've posted it?

                        Anyone? Please?

                        Comment


                        • My comments on Post 4 and Post 5

                          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                          The Makkan pagans doubted the knowledge of Allah and that He's All-hearing

                          ...
                          ...

                          The Makkan pagans believed that Allah needs help to preserve and control the universe
                          ...
                          ...
                          All these are 'Red Herrings' just to increase the volume of your posts... irrelevant!

                          Here's a reminder of what I said above:

                          The meaning ofTawhid-ul-Rububiyyah (Oneness of Allah's Lordship) is the ascription of all Acts of Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) to none but Him Alone, such as: creation, bringing into being, providing sustenance, giving life, and causing death… and this is the Tawheed that is meant in those ‘clear’ Aayaat (verses), e.g.


                          [43:87] And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, "Allah." So how are they deluded?
                          [43:9] And if you should ask them, "Who has created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, "They were created by the Exalted in Might, the Knowing."
                          [39:38] And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, "Allah." Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah? If Allah intended me harm, are they removers of His harm; or if He intended me mercy, are they withholders of His mercy?" Say, "Sufficient for me is Allah; upon Him [alone] rely the [wise] reliers."
                          [10:31] Say, "Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Or who controls hearing and sight and who brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and who arranges [every] matter?" They will say, "Allah," so say, "Then will you not fear Him?"
                          [31:25] And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and earth?" they would surely say, "Allah." Say, "[All] praise is [due] to Allah "; but most of them do not know.


                          The meaning of Tawhid-ul-Uluhiyyah (think of it as Oneness of Worship) is the dedication of all acts of the servants to none but Allah Alone, such as: Du`a' (supplication), asking help, seeking refuge, fear, hope, reliance and all other forms of `Ibadah (worship).


                          So (just for the sake of) putting this notion simply, if you were to ask the kuffar of Quraish:


                          Question: Who created? Who provides sustenance?...etc ( Rububiyyah)
                          Kuffar’s answer: Allah (All the relevant verses confirm this response)


                          Question: Then will you dedicate all your acts of worship to Allah Alone? ( Uluhiyyah)
                          Kuffar’s answer: No (or Not without Medium Partners)

                          So let me remind you in a simple way... of what exactly you are trying to prove:

                          We agree that Kuffar Quraysh associate partners to Allah SWT when it comes to worshipping Him (Uluhiyyah)

                          Could you please show me where exactly in the Qur'an does it say that they associate partners to Allah SWT when it comes to Creating and Providing sustenance? (Rububiyyah)


                          if you can show me this, then you will have proven that:

                          1) Tawheed should not have been divided into categories
                          2) Qur'an contains contradictions (Astaghfirullah) (because of the clear verses above)


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Passer_By View Post
                            Dear brothers and sisters,
                            Assalamu a’laikum,


                            Please note: Quotes/opinions from their (known/unknown) scholars, or from any respected scholars who (at some point in their lives) have been known to be ‘influenced’ by twisted ideology/philosophy/Kalaam (Jahmiyyah, Mu’tazilah, and even Ash’ariyyah...etc) will/must be ignored (Rahimahumullah, all of them)


                            First, what is the difference betyween Tawheedul-Uluhiyyah and Tawheedul-Rububiyyah… and why have the scholars of AhlusSunnah Wal Jamaah felt it was necessary to establish this distinction in Tawheed.


                            The meaning ofTawhid-ul-Rububiyyah (Oneness of Allah's Lordship) is the ascription of all Acts of Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) to none but Him Alone, such as: creation, bringing into being, providing sustenance, giving life, and causing death… and this is the Tawheed that is meant in those ‘clear’ Aayaat (verses), e.g.

                            ...

                            The meaning of Tawhid-ul-Uluhiyyah (think of it as Oneness of Worship) is the dedication of all acts of the servants to none but Allah Alone, such as: Du`a' (supplication), asking help, seeking refuge, fear, hope, reliance and all other forms of `Ibadah (worship).

                            Wa 'alaykum al-salam,

                            ​​​​​​I would like you to have an open mind and not try to make Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) a judge in this discussion, especially considering that this man was refuted by the scholars of his time (especially by Hanabila!) and that this man had not even studied a basic science like the science of rhetoric ('Ilm al-Balagha) properly.

                            We should both make the revelation of Allah ta'ala a judge upon us and we also should refer to the classical scholars if we find difficulty in understanding the Qur`an al-karim and the Sunna of our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

                            Here I would like to note that you have NO right whatsoever to exclude referring to the Sada al-Asha'ira, because almost all Islamic sciences goes through them (whether the laymen in their compound ignorance today like it or not!) and even the so called "Salafis" today are forced to learn from their works!
                            This with the knowledge that the issue discussed here is not even connected to 'Ilm al-Kalam (so be aware and don't blindly mention things!) and that the Hanabila and the Asha'ira (who are both real Sunnis unlike the Najdis) do not even differ regrading it, rather the first ones to cause problems because of this issue (to be more precise: they were SLAUGHTERING Muslims because of it!) were the Najdi movement and this based upon what they understood - or better say MISunderstood - from the works of Imam Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH).


                            Now let's get into the issue:

                            As for the definitions you gave (and it is in accordance with the Najdi understanding):

                            - Being a real monotheist regarding the Lordship (Rububiyya) of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not just entail to believe that He is exclusice in acts like creating, sustaining and disposing the universe, but it also entails to believe in Him being described with absolute perfection and being necessary or essential in existence and being free of need / flaws / similarity and so on.
                            So your definition is actually lacking and more is needed to be regarded a monotheist in this.

                            - As for Divinity (Uluhiyya), then your definition is a CATASTROPHE and the reason is the following: You're making the Divinity of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala DEPENDENT on the actions of His servants and this is is wrong, rather the Divinity of Allah ta'ala is due to Him being exclusive in having the characteristics of Lordship without any partners whatsoever!

                            ​​​​​​
                            If you have understood the above, you will also understand that Lordship and Divinity are connected to each other and necessitate each other and can NOT be seperated from each other and for this reason the Muslims have always believed that there is ONE Tawhid!

                            Where do we find this ONE Tawhid? It's in Surat al-Ikhlas, which according to our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is equal to one-third of Qur`an al-karim!

                            Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala - the Lord of the Worlds - is described with ALL characteristics of Lordship WITHOUT any partners whatsoever and that's why there is none worthy of worship except Him subhanahu wa ta'ala!
                            This means that worship is based upon beliefs and is NOT simply an act without a belief behind it! Acting otherwise opens the doors to attacking what Allah ta'ala allowed to the nations before us and even to us!


                            So what was the problem of the polytheists and disbelievers? Their problem was that they did NOT affirm ALL characteristics of Lordship for Allah ta'ala without any partners, rather they seperated these attributes from each other and attributed it to different existent and non-existent beings (which is why we're calling them POLYtheists). Some of these people ascribed some of these attributes to Allah ta'ala (like many Arab polytheists, especially those who were nearer to the time of Isma'il ('alayhil salam)), while others (like the Greek pagans and their likes) did not believe in Allah ta'ala at all.
                            Based upon the above beliefs, the polytheists thaught that "more than one being deserves worship, because more than one being has divine attributes".



                            ​​​​​I know that you will now most likely claim my statements to be wrong, but please consider this important point: The Christians - who are Ahl al-Kitab and better in beliefs than pagans and live in our time (such that we can observe their beliefs first hand!) and make up a great part of humanity - believe that 'Isa ('alayhil salam) is God almighty, so these people are not and were not monotheists regarding the Lordship of Allah ta'ala by any definition!
                            So how can you people claim that the disbelievers and the polytheists were all accepting the Lordship of Allah ta'ala without any partners, while we're seeing that not even the Ahl al-Kitab among the Kuffar are monotheists regarding the Lordship of Allah ta'ala?


                            How can you lie to yourself and to other people while you're seeing these people around you!?





                            Comment


                            • Post 7

                              Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                              The Makkan pagans believed in the existance of gods besides Allah and explicitly stated this with their tongues


                              { وَجَعَلُواْ للَّهِ مِمَّا ذَرَأَ مِنَ ٱلْحَرْثِ وَٱلأَنْعَٰمِ نَصِيباً فَقَالُواْ هَـٰذَا للَّهِ بِزَعْمِهِمْ وَهَـٰذَا لِشُرَكَآئِنَا فَمَا كَانَ لِشُرَكَآئِهِمْ فَلاَ يَصِلُ إِلَىٰ ٱللَّهِ وَمَا كَانَ للَّهِ فَهُوَ يَصِلُ إِلَىٰ شُرَكَآئِهِمْ سَآءَ مَا يَحْكُمُونَ }

                              { And among the crops and animals that Allah has created, they assigned (only) a portion to Him and therefore said “This is for Allah” - in their opinion - “and this is for our partners (false deities)”; so the portion for their partners does not reach Allah; and the portion for Allah reaches their partners; what an evil judgement they impose! }

                              [6:136]...
                              Again... all you are showing here is that the Makkan Pagans associated partners to Allah SWT in matters of worship (presenting sacrifices to Deities...etc), i.e. Uluhiyyah.

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                              • Post 7

                                Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                                The Makkan pagans believed in a type of intercession which happens without the permission of Allah...
                                LOL ...

                                So you thought that you would RANDOMLY slip a post in here about Intercession!... even though it's very irrelevant... in an attempt to justify your own 'practices!

                                Hmmm... Moving on... swiftly

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