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Wahhabi claim: Belief in Rububiyya (lordship) of Allah: Muslims = Pagans

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  • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

    It goes beyond that. In any case, how you you understand the narrations about innovations being in the hellfire?
    It's a strong deterrent from innovations that go against the Deen (a person who knows his innovation is against Islam).....that's quite different to someone who follows an innovation believing that it itself is the Deen.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

      Too vague.
      Why does it matter though? Allah will not ask us about individuals.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

        It's a strong deterrent from innovations that go against the Deen (a person who knows his innovation is against Islam).....that's quite different to someone who follows an innovation believing that it itself is the Deen.
        What?!

        Do you think people innovate or follow innovations believing they are against Islam?

        Comment


        • oO
          Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

          Why does it matter though? Allah will not ask us about individuals.
          What?!

          It matters because it could factor in laws around marriage, inheritance, funerals, etc. Do you give salaam to apostates and treat them as Muslim saying,"Only Allah can judge them?"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
            oO

            What?!

            It matters because it could factor in laws around marriage, inheritance, funerals, etc. Do you give salaam to apostates and treat them as Muslim saying,"Only Allah can judge them?"
            Sure, but who says that will matter on the DoJ anyway? If I marry someone thinking they are muslim, but a Najdi thinks they are a apostate, am I supposed to care?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

              What?!

              Do you think people innovate or follow innovations believing they are against Islam?
              In a sense, yes.

              Take the Khawarij as an example, they went against all of the sahabi scholars (who at the time were the only knowledgeable ones of Islam) intentionally. Later, you also had philosophers and thinkers who went against the consensus of the line of scholars with their own thoughts and ideas.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                Sure, but who says that will matter on the DoJ anyway? If I marry someone thinking they are muslim, but a Najdi thinks they are a apostate, am I supposed to care?
                What on earth does that mean? The question is whether you would treat an apostate the same as a Muslim... meaning they have left Islam according to your principles, not the 'Najdi' straw man you just created. Unless you believe there is no such thing as apostasy?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                  In a sense, yes.

                  Take the Khawarij as an example, they went against all of the sahabi scholars (who at the time were the only knowledgeable ones of Islam) intentionally. Later, you also had philosophers and thinkers who went against the consensus of the line of scholars with their own thoughts and ideas.
                  What on earth does that mean?

                  Do you think the khawarij believed they were going against Islam but continued to do so anyway, or do you think they believed they were following 'true' Islam?

                  Comment


                  • before saying najdi this or that

                    read the works of shaykh sultan al umayri on refutation of doctor haatim al awni

                    Comment


                    • and lets not act like asharis were innocent and never went on a rampage of killing

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
                        before saying najdi this or that

                        read the works of shaykh sultan al umayri on refutation of doctor haatim al awni
                        The issue that is discussed in this thread is really very clear and straightforward and it is not allowed for two Muslims to differ regrading it, so any so called "refutations" are not needed.

                        There is a great difference between the creed of the people of Islam regarding Allah ta'ala and between the creed of the disbelievers and polytheists regarding Him subhanahu wa ta'ala.

                        To give some examples:

                        - The Christians believe that 'Isa ('alayhil salam) is God Almighty and the Lord, so they clearly are NOT monotheists regarding the Lordship of Allah ta'ala, but rather regard a Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) as Allah ta'ala Himself.
                        ​​​​
                        - The Greek pagans believed in the existence of many different gods with Zeus being one of their major gods in status and power, so they did also NOT believe in the Lordship of Allah ta'ala.

                        - The ancient Egyptians pagans also believed in the existence of many different gods with Amun-Ra being one of the very powerful gods among them, so they also did NOT believe in Allah ta'ala.

                        - The north European pagans believed also in the existence of different gods with Odin being one of the very powerful among them, so they also did NOT believe in Allah ta'ala.

                        - The Arab pagans likewise believed in the existence of different gods and they were ready to curse Allah ta'ala if their so called gods were to be cursed and they doubted Allah ta'ala, His knowledge, His power to resurrect them and even disputed regarding Him (all of this established by clear Ayat!), so they were also NOT believers in Allah ta'ala NOR monotheists regarding His Lordship.

                        - etc.


                        The above is all established beyond doubt. Now compare this with the claim of that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH):

                        فإذا تأمّلت هذا تأملا جيدًا، عرفت أنّ الكفار يشهدون لله بتوحيد الربوبية، وهو تفرّد بالخلق والرزق والتدبير

                        So if you think about this well, you will know that the disbelievers testify the monotheism of Lordship for Allah and that is Him being exclusive in creating, sustaining and disposing [the universe].
                        - end of quote -

                        ​​​​​​This heretic also claimed that "the disbelievers testified lordship (Rububiyya) completely for Allah" ("الكفار يشهدون بالربوبية كلها لله").


                        Now the ignorant people who follow this man will come up with some Ayat where it stated that if one where to ask the [Arab] pagans who created them they would answer Allah. This is no different to many people in our time who claim to believe in God and are in reality nothing but disbelievers in Him.
                        The problem here is that they have thereby followed the footsteps of the Jews and have believed in some of the Book and disbelieved in some of it, while Allah ta'ala has commanded us to believe in ALL of it!

                        Allah ta'ala also informs us that they were not certain regardind Him and that they disputed regarding Him and doubted His power to resurrect them and so on. He jalla jalaluhu also informed us how they took the angels, the jinn and some non-existent beings as gods besides Him.


                        Additionally I would advice to read the following:

                        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                        The reason is as already mentioned above: The pagans did have no real conviction in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala in the first place and were in doubt regarding him.


                        Allah ta'ala says:

                        { هُوَ ٱلَّذِي خَلَقَكُمْ مِّن طِينٍ ثُمَّ قَضَىۤ أَجَلاً وَأَجَلٌ مُّسَمًّى عِندَهُ ثُمَّ أَنتُمْ تَمْتَرُونَ }

                        { It is He Who has created you from clay, and then decreed a term for you; and it is a fixed promise before Him, yet you still doubt! }

                        [6:2]

                        Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) said in the Tafsir of the above Aya:

                        ثُمَّ أنْتُمْ تَمْتُرُونَ }. يقول تعالى ذكره: ثم أنتم تشكون في قدرة من قدر على خلق السموات والأرض، وإظلام الليل وإنارة النهار، وخلقكم من طين حتى صيركم بالهيئة التي أنتم بها على إنشائه إياكم من بعد مماتكم وفنائكم، وإيجاده إياكم بعد عدمكم

                        { yet you still doubt! } [with this statement Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says: Then you are still doubting the power / ability of the One, who was able to create the heavens and the earth, and to bring forth night and day, and to create you from clay upon the form that you're upon and to recreate you after your death and annihilation and your non-existance.
                        - end of quote -


                        These Ayat were already quoted:

                        { أَمْ خُلِقُواْ مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ ٱلْخَالِقُونَ }
                        { أَمْ خَلَقُواْ ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَٱلأَرْضَ بَل لاَّ يُوقِنُونَ }

                        { Have they not been created from some source, or are they themselves the creators? }
                        { Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather they are not certain. }

                        [52:35-36]

                        Imam al-Tabarani (d. 360 AH) said:

                        بَل لاَّ يُوقِنُونَ }؛ بالحقِّ وهو توحيدُ اللهِ وقدرتهُ على البعثِ

                        { Rather they are not certain. } [meaning] in the truth, and that is the oneness (Tawhid) of Allah and his power / ability (Qudra) to resurrect [the dead].
                        - end of quote -

                        Imam Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597 AH) said:

                        قوله تعالى: { بَلْ لا يوقِنون } بالحق، وهو توحيدُ الله وقدرته على البعث

                        His statement: { Rather they are not certain. } [meaning] in the truth, and that is the oneness (Tawhid) of Allah and his power / ability (Qudra) to resurrect [the dead].
                        - end of quote -

                        Imam al-Nasafi (d. 710 AH) said:

                        أَمْ خَلَقُواْ ٱلسَّمَـٰوٰتِ وَٱلأَرْضِ } فلا يعبدون خالقهما { بَل لاَّ يُوقِنُونَ } أي لا يتدبرون في الآيات فيعلموا خالقهم وخالق السماوات والأرض

                        { Or did they create the heavens and the earth? }, so that they do not worship the one who created them, { rather they are not certain } meaning: they do not ponder upon the signs so that they know their creator and the creator of the heavens and the earth.
                        - end of quote -


                        Imam al-Khazin (d. 725 AH) said:

                        بل لا يوقنون } أي بالحق وهو توحيد الله تعالى وقدرته على البعث وأن الله تعالى هو خالقهم وخالق السموات والأرض فليؤمنوا به وليوقنوا أنه ربهم وخالقهم

                        { rather they are not certain } meaning: In the truth and that is the oneness (Tawhid) of Allah ta'ala and his power to resurrect and that Allah ta'ala is their Creator and the Creator of the heavens and the earth, so they should believe in Him and have conviction that He's their Lord and their Creator.
                        - end of quote -

                        Imam al-Naysaburi (d. 728 AH) said:

                        قال { بل لا يوقنون } وذلك أنه حكى عنهم{ ولئن سألتهم من خلق السموات والأرض ليقولن الله } [لقمان: 25] فتبين أنهم في هذا الاعتراف شاكون إذ لو عرفوه حق معرفته لم يثبتوا له نداً ولم يحسدوا من اختاره للرسالة كما وبخهم عليه بقوله { أم عندهم خزائن ربك } حتى يختاروا للنبوة من أرادوه

                        [Allah ta'ala] says { rather they are not certain. } and He has narrated about them { and if you ask them, “Who created the heavens and the earth?” - they will surely answer, “Allah” } [31:25], so it has become clear that they're in doubt regarding what they admitted, because if they had known Him in reality they would have not attested a rival to Him and would have not envied the one whom He has chosen for messengership as He has scolded them for this with His statement { or do they have the treasures of your Lord? } [52:37] so that they can choose for prophethood whom they want.
                        - end of quote -

                        Imam Abu Hayyan (d. 754 AH) said:

                        بل لا يوقنون }: أي إذا سئلوا: من خلقكم وخلق السموات والأرض؟ قالوا: الله، وهم شاكون فيما يقولون لا يوقنون

                        { rather they are not certain. } meaning: If they would be asked: Who created them and who created the heavens and earth? They would say: "Allah"; while they are in doubt regarding what they said and not certain regarding it.
                        - end of quote -

                        Imam Abul Su'ud (d. 951 AH) said:

                        أَمْ خَلَقُواْ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَاتِ وَٱلأَرْضَ بَل لاَّ يُوقِنُونَ } أي إذا سئلوا منْ خلقكم وخلق السمواتِ والأرضَ قالوا الله وهم غيرُ موقنينَ بما قالُوا وإلا لما أعرضُوا عن عبادتِه

                        {
                        Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather they are not certain. } meaning: If they would be asked who created them and the heavens and the earth, they would respond "Allah", but they were not certain regarding what they said otherwise they would have not turned away from His worship.
                        - end of quote -


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                          The issue that is discussed in this thread is really very clear and straightforward and it is not allowed for two Muslims to differ regrading it, so any so called "refutations" are not needed.

                          There is a great difference between the creed of the people of Islam regarding Allah ta'ala and between the creed of the disbelievers and polytheists regarding Him subhanahu wa ta'ala.

                          To give some examples:

                          - The Christians believe that 'Isa ('alayhil salam) is God Almighty and the Lord, so they clearly are NOT monotheists regarding the Lordship of Allah ta'ala, but rather regard a Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) as Allah ta'ala Himself.
                          ​​​​
                          - The Greek pagans believed in the existence of many different gods with Zeus being one of their major gods in status and power, so they did also NOT believe in the Lordship of Allah ta'ala.

                          - The ancient Egyptians pagans also believed in the existence of many different gods with Amun-Ra being one of the very powerful gods among them, so they also did NOT believe in Allah ta'ala.

                          - The north European pagans believed also in the existence of different gods with Odin being one of the very powerful among them, so they also did NOT believe in Allah ta'ala.

                          - The Arab pagans likewise believed in the existence of different gods and they were ready to curse Allah ta'ala if their so called gods were to be cursed and they doubted Allah ta'ala, His knowledge, His power to resurrect them and even disputed regarding Him (all of this established by clear Ayat!), so they were also NOT believers in Allah ta'ala NOR monotheists regarding His Lordship.

                          - etc.


                          The above is all established beyond doubt. Now compare this with the claim of that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH):

                          فإذا تأمّلت هذا تأملا جيدًا، عرفت أنّ الكفار يشهدون لله بتوحيد الربوبية، وهو تفرّد بالخلق والرزق والتدبير

                          So if you think about this well, you will know that the disbelievers testify the monotheism of Lordship for Allah and that is Him being exclusive in creating, sustaining and disposing [the universe].
                          - end of quote -

                          ​​​​​​This heretic also claimed that "the disbelievers testified lordship (Rububiyya) completely for Allah" ("الكفار يشهدون بالربوبية كلها لله").


                          Now the ignorant people who follow this man will come up with some Ayat where it stated that if one where to ask the [Arab] pagans who created them they would answer Allah. This is no different to many people in our time who claim to believe in God and are in reality nothing but disbelievers in Him.
                          The problem here is that they have thereby followed the footsteps of the Jews and have believed in some of the Book and disbelieved in some of it, while Allah ta'ala has commanded us to believe in ALL of it!

                          Allah ta'ala also informs us that they were not certain regardind Him and that they disputed regarding Him and doubted His power to resurrect them and so on. He jalla jalaluhu also informed us how they took the angels, the jinn and some non-existent beings as gods besides Him.


                          Additionally I would advice to read the following:




                          ive read enough of this thread and your other threads and this viewpoint of tawheed and shirk

                          how about reading what i recommended or are you afraid that it will destroy your creed and give you doubts

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

                            ive read enough of this thread and your other threads and this viewpoint of tawheed and shirk

                            how about reading what i recommended or are you afraid that it will destroy your creed and give you doubts
                            I know the arguments of the Najdis and their followers quite well. So tell me something new.


                            But let me ask you something very simple?

                            Do you regard the one who believes in let's say Amun-Ra and some other false deities as a monotheist in the Lordship of Allah ta'ala and this despite this person not believing in Allah ta'ala at all?

                            Or let's get to our time: The one who regards Jesus -(peace be upon him) as God almighty, do you regard him as a believer and monotheist in the Lordship of Allah ta'ala and this despite him regarding other than Allah ta'ala as Allah ta'ala?

                            The issue is as simple as that. No need to even refer to al-'Umayri or Shaykh Hatim or bring up the Sada al-Asha'ira (who have done more for Islam than any person today!), while the whole Umma differs with the Najdis regarding this issue.
                            And how could they not differ with them, while the Najdi position entails disbelieving in the Ayat of Allah ta'ala!?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                              What on earth does that mean?

                              Do you think the khawarij believed they were going against Islam but continued to do so anyway, or do you think they believed they were following 'true' Islam?
                              Yes, by going against the Ijmaa of the learned Sahabah who learned directly from the prophet, they were going against Islam

                              They are rightly labelled ahlul bidah.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

                                ive read enough of this thread and your other threads and this viewpoint of tawheed and shirk

                                how about reading what i recommended or are you afraid that it will destroy your creed and give you doubts
                                I've watched many videos and read many articles trying to refute the Awni argument....none of them make sense....

                                Comment

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