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Wahhabi claim: Belief in Rububiyya (lordship) of Allah: Muslims = Pagans

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  • Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    You are expecting a wrong answer from him.

    He doesn't operate under the 'deviant' framework to begin with.
    Exactly, I clearly said I don't follow this Tabdee' culture.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

      My point was that calling someone a deviant for deviating away from tawheed isn't controversial at all. I think he realised that from my questions which is why he couldn't be clear.

      I mean, imagine saying that someone's core beliefs are an "evil innovation" but not considering that person to be deviated or misguided. In other words, you can be a 'Sunni' despite your evil innovations in tawheed!
      Labelling others as innovators so swiftly is itself an innovation.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

        Labelling others as innovators so swiftly is itself an innovation.
        This kind of word salad seems to be never ending.

        Apparently you can be a Muslim/Sunni despite evil innovations and even anthropomorphism. Takfeer is an innovation!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

          This kind of word salad seems to be never ending.

          Apparently you can be a Muslim/Sunni despite evil innovations and even anthropomorphism. Takfeer is an innovation!
          Son you're honestly not making any sense.

          What's your point?

          Where did takfeer come from?
          You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

          You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post

            Son you're honestly not making any sense.

            What's your point?

            Where did takfeer come from?
            The point is as already stated: the idea that people considered to have majorly deviated are called deviants is normal.

            "TheHaqq" says it's controversial because he doesn't consider people who have majorly deviated to be deviants. Just like those that accuse people of 'anthropomorphism' yet still consider them to be Muslim. It's all mumbo jumbo. Everyone is Muslim!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

              The point is as already stated: the idea that people considered to have majorly deviated are called deviants is normal.

              "TheHaqq" says it's controversial because he doesn't consider people who have majorly deviated to be deviants. Just like those that accuse people of 'anthropomorphism' yet still consider them to be Muslim. It's all mumbo jumbo. Everyone is Muslim!
              Deviant in a linguistic sense?

              Or do you mean 'deviant' an in an Islamic label?

              ""TheHaqq" says it's controversial because he doesn't consider people who have majorly deviated to be deviants."

              I don't think he said that anywhere.
              You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

              You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post

                Deviant in a linguistic sense?

                Or do you mean 'deviant' an in an Islamic label?...
                Either, it applies to both.

                ""TheHaqq" says it's controversial because he doesn't consider people who have majorly deviated to be deviants."

                I don't think he said that anywhere.
                He said he doesn't believe in calling anyone a deviant.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                  Either, it applies to both.
                  See, he doesn't really believe in the second, or even if he does his criteria don't have to match yours for acheiving 'deviancy'.

                  Because ultimately it is not something explicitly mentioned in Islam. It is something derived.

                  "He said he doesn't believe in calling anyone a deviant."

                  In the sense of being from 'Ahul Bid'ah' yes.

                  Linguistically that they are 'depart from an established course' is something he has no issue saying.

                  I think you need to stop trying to push your framework onto him.
                  You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                  You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                    See, he doesn't really believe in the second, or even if he does his criteria don't have to match yours for acheiving 'deviancy'.

                    Because ultimately it is not something explicitly mentioned in Islam. It is something derived.

                    "He said he doesn't believe in calling anyone a deviant."

                    In the sense of being from 'Ahul Bid'ah' yes.

                    Linguistically that they are 'depart from an established course' is something he has no issue saying.

                    I think you need to stop trying to push your framework onto him.
                    The framework of saying that an innovator is an innovator or a murtad is a murtad? He thinks this is a salafi innovation whereas it's normal across the board. He says it's blackmail.

                    It's ridiculous.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                      The framework of saying that an innovator is an innovator or a murtad is a murtad? He thinks this is a salafi innovation whereas it's normal across the board. He says it's blackmail.

                      It's ridiculous.
                      Normal across which board? Just because you're used to it or think it's normal doesn't mean everyone has to go on board with it.

                      And how can you compare a murtad to a Muslim?

                      A murtad is a well defined and established reality in Islamic texts. An 'innovator' isn't.

                      That's the difference.

                      A simple question for you:

                      Can you show through Islamic texts when a person is to be declared an 'innovator'?

                      A murtad is simple. Don't appeal to that. It's well known and defined.

                      I would appreciate a straightforward answer.
                      You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                      You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                        Normal across which board? Just because you're used to it or think it's normal doesn't mean everyone has to go on board with it.

                        And how can you compare a murtad to a Muslim?

                        A murtad is a well defined and established reality in Islamic texts. An 'innovator' isn't.

                        That's the difference.

                        A simple question for you:

                        Can you show through Islamic texts when a person is to be declared an 'innovator'?

                        A murtad is simple. Don't appeal to that. It's well known and defined.

                        I would appreciate a straightforward answer.
                        If murtad is defined and established then how is takfeer an innovation?

                        You want the name of an individual who has been declared an innovator or something more general where people have innovated?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                          If murtad is defined and established then how is takfeer an innovation?

                          You want the name of an individual who has been declared an innovator or something more general where people have innovated?
                          I said takfeer for the most part.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                            This kind of word salad seems to be never ending.

                            Apparently you can be a Muslim/Sunni despite evil innovations and even anthropomorphism. Takfeer is an innovation!
                            Ye, I don't believe you are going to hell just because you believe Allah has two physical hands (3D) that are unlike the creation, beyond imagination.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                              I said takfeer for the most part.
                              Too vague.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                                Ye, I don't believe you are going to hell just because you believe Allah has two physical hands (3D) that are unlike the creation, beyond imagination.
                                It goes beyond that. In any case, how you you understand the narrations about innovations being in the hellfire?

                                Comment

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