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Wahhabi claim: Belief in Rububiyya (lordship) of Allah: Muslims = Pagans

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  • Originally posted by aboosait View Post
    I have quoted a verse from the Quran and you people are quoting the belief of this website and that.
    Why do you presume that you're entitled to the correct understanding & interpretation of the Quran above us ? why ignore that we also cite the Quran more so than you but somehow we should believe that you're only correct when you quote from the Quran.

    Are you not the one who was quoting from islamweb to prove that the pagans had tawheed rububiyyah ? how come you made the exception for yourself ? I used the websites to highlight the contradiction of affirming both tawheed & shirk to the pagans, a point that you continue refuse to accept despite being very explicit. I can understand your reaction as it's a result of simply being taken in by the salafi dawah without questioning it or researching for yourself.

    I would suggest that you go through the evidences brought forward and evaluate them sincerely without any bias.

    May Allah keep us steadfast and forgive us for our shortcomings

    Ameen

    Comment


    • Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post

      May Allah keep us steadfast and forgive us for our shortcomings

      Ameen
      Ameen.
      Worship only the CREATOR, HE is One and HE is the SUSTAINER of the Universe. Do not worship any of HIS creations nor through HIS creations

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

        Indeed, but it's worse than that. He calls the Christians - who regards Jesus (peace be upon him) to be God - as "monotheist in Lordship". And he calls the Makkan pagans as such and this while they claimed that angels are daughters of God. What kind of monotheism is this?



        Do you still have the source for it brother ? let me know when you find it inshallah

        Comment


        • Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post



          Do you still have the source for it brother ? let me know when you find it inshallah

          Wa 'alaykum al-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh akhil karim,

          Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) - may Allah ta'ala give him what he deserves - has a short treatise regarding the meaning of "La ilaha illa Allah" (which proves that he has no idea of real Tawhid in reality) and it contains the following sections:

          - The meaning of the statement "La ilaha illa Allah"
          - The disbelievers testify the monotheism of Lordship for Allah
          - The polytheists whom the Messenger faught against were calling the Righteous, so they disbelieved because of this while affirming the monotheism of Lordship
          - The disbelief of the polytheists of our time is greater than that of those whom the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - faught against


          โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹With "the polytheists of our time" he intends the Muslims (!) of the Arabian peninsula.
          Note that this man was arguing that the belief of the disbelievers and polytheists regarding Allah ta'ala is the same as the Islamic one l and was adding to this his claim that the Muslims of his time were worse than the polytheists. These two claims together are obvious rejection of what is established in the Qur`an al-karim and the Sunna and therefore disbelief.


          He stated in exposition of his ignorance the following:

          ุฃู†ู‘ ุงู„ู…ุดุฑูƒูŠู† ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู‚ุงุชู„ู‡ู… ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุขู„ู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ูƒุงู†ูˆุง ูŠุฏุนูˆู† ุงู„ุตุงู„ุญูŠู† ู…ุซู„ ุงู„ู…ู„ุงุฆูƒุฉ ูˆุนูŠุณู‰ ูˆุนูุฒูŠุฑ ูˆุบูŠุฑู‡ู… ู…ู† ุงู„ุฃูˆู„ูŠุงุกุŒ ููƒูุฑูˆุง ุจู‡ุฐุง ู…ุน ุฅู‚ุฑุงุฑู‡ู… ุจุฃู†ู‘ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุฎุงู„ู‚ ุงู„ุฑุงุฒู‚ ุงู„ู…ุฏุจู‘ุฑ

          The polytheists whom the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam - faught against would call the Righteous like the angels, 'Isa, 'Uzayr and other than them from among the Awliya`, so they became disbelievers because of this while affirming that Allah is the Creator, the Sustainer and the Disposer...
          - end of quote -

          โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹Note that he tries to act as if the simple calling of the Anbiya` and Awliya` is what makes one a polytheist and that the polytheists and disbelievers had the same creed as the Muslims regarding Allah ta'ala, while in reality we know that those who worship our Master 'Isa (peace and blessings be upon him) do so due to their belief that he is Allah ta'ala and His son and as for the polytheists, then their beliefs are even worse than that of the Christians and no one will deny this except the one who was no mind and understanding.

          He then went on in this vain until he states that the disbelievers would affirm the monotheism of Lordship for Allah ta'ala and brings up the issue of intercession (while having no idea of the difference between the Islamic concept of intercession and the polytheist one) and then he even specifies the Christians from among them and says that they worship Allah day and night and are still disbelievers (due to calling the Anbiya` and Awliya` and what is similar to that):

          ูุฅุฐุง ุชุฃู…ู‘ู„ุช ู‡ุฐุง ุชุฃู…ู„ุง ุฌูŠุฏู‹ุงุŒ ุนุฑูุช ุฃู†ู‘ ุงู„ูƒูุงุฑ ูŠุดู‡ุฏูˆู† ู„ู„ู‡ ุจุชูˆุญูŠุฏ ุงู„ุฑุจูˆุจูŠุฉุŒ ูˆู‡ูˆ ุชูุฑู‘ุฏ ุจุงู„ุฎู„ู‚ ูˆุงู„ุฑุฒู‚ ูˆุงู„ุชุฏุจูŠุฑุŒ ูˆู‡ู… ูŠู†ุฎูˆู† ุนูŠุณู‰ ูˆุงู„ู…ู„ุงุฆูƒุฉ ูˆุงู„ุฃูˆู„ูŠุงุก ูŠู‚ุตุฏูˆู† ุฃู†ู‡ู… ูŠู‚ุฑู‘ุจูˆู†ู‡ู… ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ูˆูŠุดูุนูˆู† ุนู†ุฏู‡.

          ูˆุนุฑูุช ุฃู†ู‘ ู…ู† ุงู„ูƒูุงุฑ ุฎุตูˆุตุง ุงู„ู†ุตุงุฑู‰ ู…ู†ู‡ู…ุŒ ู…ู† ูŠุนุจุฏ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุงู„ู„ูŠู„ ูˆุงู„ู†ู‡ุงุฑุŒ ูˆูŠุฒู‡ุฏ ููŠ ุงู„ุฏู†ูŠุงุŒ ูˆูŠุชุตุฏู‚ ุจู…ุง ุฏุฎู„ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ู…ู†ู‡ุงุŒ ู…ุนุชุฒู„ ููŠ ุตูˆู…ุนุฉ ุนู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณุŒ ูˆู…ุน ู‡ุฐุง: ูƒุงูุฑ ุนุฏูˆ ู„ู„ู‡

          -end of quote -


          โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹Comment: So believing that a Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) is Allah ta'ala Himself is still regarded as "believing in Allah ta'ala and His Lordship" according to this man and such people are "only" disbelievers due to their statment "O Jesus!", wallahul musta'an.
          Wallahi, it's a shame that such a person could find followers from among the Muslims!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

            Wa 'alaykum al-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh akhil karim,

            Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) - may Allah ta'ala give him what he deserves - has a short treatise regarding the meaning of "La ilaha illa Allah" (which proves that he has no idea of real Tawhid in reality) and it contains the following sections:

            - The meaning of the statement "La ilaha illa Allah"
            - The disbelievers testify the monotheism of Lordship for Allah
            - The polytheists whom the Messenger faught against were calling the Righteous, so they disbelieved because of this while affirming the monotheism of Lordship
            - The disbelief of the polytheists of our time is greater than that of those whom the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - faught against


            โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹With "the polytheists of our time" he intends the Muslims (!) of the Arabian peninsula.
            Note that this man was arguing that the belief of the disbelievers and polytheists regarding Allah ta'ala is the same as the Islamic one l and was adding to this his claim that the Muslims of his time were worse than the polytheists. These two claims together are obvious rejection of what is established in the Qur`an al-karim and the Sunna and therefore disbelief.


            He stated in exposition of his ignorance the following:

            ุฃู†ู‘ ุงู„ู…ุดุฑูƒูŠู† ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู‚ุงุชู„ู‡ู… ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุขู„ู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ูƒุงู†ูˆุง ูŠุฏุนูˆู† ุงู„ุตุงู„ุญูŠู† ู…ุซู„ ุงู„ู…ู„ุงุฆูƒุฉ ูˆุนูŠุณู‰ ูˆุนูุฒูŠุฑ ูˆุบูŠุฑู‡ู… ู…ู† ุงู„ุฃูˆู„ูŠุงุกุŒ ููƒูุฑูˆุง ุจู‡ุฐุง ู…ุน ุฅู‚ุฑุงุฑู‡ู… ุจุฃู†ู‘ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุฎุงู„ู‚ ุงู„ุฑุงุฒู‚ ุงู„ู…ุฏุจู‘ุฑ

            The polytheists whom the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam - faught against would call the Righteous like the angels, 'Isa, 'Uzayr and other than them from among the Awliya`, so they became disbelievers because of this while affirming that Allah is the Creator, the Sustainer and the Disposer...
            - end of quote -

            โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹Note that he tries to act as if the simple calling of the Anbiya` and Awliya` is what makes one a polytheist and that the polytheists and disbelievers had the same creed as the Muslims regarding Allah ta'ala, while in reality we know that those who worship our Master 'Isa (peace and blessings be upon him) do so due to their belief that he is Allah ta'ala and His son and as for the polytheists, then their beliefs are even worse than that of the Christians and no one will deny this except the one who was no mind and understanding.

            He then went on in this vain until he states that the disbelievers would affirm the monotheism of Lordship for Allah ta'ala and brings up the issue of intercession (while having no idea of the difference between the Islamic concept of intercession and the polytheist one) and then he even specifies the Christians from among them and says that they worship Allah day and night and are still disbelievers (due to calling the Anbiya` and Awliya` and what is similar to that):

            ูุฅุฐุง ุชุฃู…ู‘ู„ุช ู‡ุฐุง ุชุฃู…ู„ุง ุฌูŠุฏู‹ุงุŒ ุนุฑูุช ุฃู†ู‘ ุงู„ูƒูุงุฑ ูŠุดู‡ุฏูˆู† ู„ู„ู‡ ุจุชูˆุญูŠุฏ ุงู„ุฑุจูˆุจูŠุฉุŒ ูˆู‡ูˆ ุชูุฑู‘ุฏ ุจุงู„ุฎู„ู‚ ูˆุงู„ุฑุฒู‚ ูˆุงู„ุชุฏุจูŠุฑุŒ ูˆู‡ู… ูŠู†ุฎูˆู† ุนูŠุณู‰ ูˆุงู„ู…ู„ุงุฆูƒุฉ ูˆุงู„ุฃูˆู„ูŠุงุก ูŠู‚ุตุฏูˆู† ุฃู†ู‡ู… ูŠู‚ุฑู‘ุจูˆู†ู‡ู… ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ูˆูŠุดูุนูˆู† ุนู†ุฏู‡.

            ูˆุนุฑูุช ุฃู†ู‘ ู…ู† ุงู„ูƒูุงุฑ ุฎุตูˆุตุง ุงู„ู†ุตุงุฑู‰ ู…ู†ู‡ู…ุŒ ู…ู† ูŠุนุจุฏ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุงู„ู„ูŠู„ ูˆุงู„ู†ู‡ุงุฑุŒ ูˆูŠุฒู‡ุฏ ููŠ ุงู„ุฏู†ูŠุงุŒ ูˆูŠุชุตุฏู‚ ุจู…ุง ุฏุฎู„ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ู…ู†ู‡ุงุŒ ู…ุนุชุฒู„ ููŠ ุตูˆู…ุนุฉ ุนู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณุŒ ูˆู…ุน ู‡ุฐุง: ูƒุงูุฑ ุนุฏูˆ ู„ู„ู‡

            -end of quote -


            โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹Comment: So believing that a Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) is Allah ta'ala Himself is still regarded as "believing in Allah ta'ala and His Lordship" according to this man and such people are "only" disbelievers due to their statment "O Jesus!", wallahul musta'an.
            Wallahi, it's a shame that such a person could find followers from among the Muslims!
            Jazakallah khayr brother


            I was noticing that some salafi would claim that christians had tawheed rububiyyah, figured there had to be a connection to the statements of IAW. What's even astonishing is that. they say uluhiyyah contains rububiyyah meaning shirk in uluhiyyah implies shirk rububiyyah as well. Yet after affirming this they still go on ahead to claim tawheed rububiyyah to the polytheist etc even after committing shirk in uluhiyyah.

            Not only is their understanding of tawheed against the revealed text but it also contradicts their own classification of tawheed. After all shirk negates tawheed so how can any individual still retain tawheed after committing shirk ?










            Comment


            • Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post

              Jazakallah khayr brother


              I was noticing that some salafi would claim that christians had tawheed rububiyyah, figured there had to be a connection to the statements of IAW. What's even astonishing is that. they say uluhiyyah contains rububiyyah meaning shirk in uluhiyyah implies shirk rububiyyah as well. Yet after affirming this they still go on ahead to claim tawheed rububiyyah to the polytheist etc even after committing shirk in uluhiyyah.

              Not only is their understanding of tawheed against the revealed text but it also contradicts their own classification of tawheed. After all shirk negates tawheed so how can any individual still retain tawheed after committing shirk ?
              It makes no sense at all once you actually look into it, they just black mail you by saying that if you doubt their version of Tawheed then you are becoming a deviant or Mushrik yourself.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                It makes no sense at all once you actually look into it, they just black mail you by saying that if you doubt their version of Tawheed then you are becoming a deviant or Mushrik yourself.
                What's your version of tawheed?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                  It makes no sense at all once you actually look into it, they just black mail you by saying that if you doubt their version of Tawheed then you are becoming a deviant or Mushrik yourself.

                  Absolutely, just imagine their founder iaw who they claim revived tawheed believes that christians,jews,pagans etc who ascribed partners to Allah in His Lordship have tawheed rububiyyah ?



                  Comment: So believing that a Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) is Allah ta'ala Himself is still regarded as "believing in Allah ta'ala and His Lordship" according to this man and such people are "only" disbelievers due to their statment "O Jesus!", wallahul musta'an. Wallahi, it's a shame that such a person could find followers from among the Muslims!
                  The above statement by brother Abu Sulayman puts everything into perspective, it details the deviancy of iaw's false creed very explicitly in a simple manner. How can christians who believe that Isa (peace be upon him) is Allah and His son have tawheed in Allah's Lordship ?

                  How is it that pagans who commit shirk in uluhiyyah still retain tawheed in rububiyyah when we know that shirk negates tawheed in it's entirety? I always ask this question to salafis so as to make them understand the problem with their understanding and classification of tawheed into categories.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                    What's your version of tawheed?
                    I follow the traditional view that actually makes sense, if you read the earliest books regarding shirk and tawheed, you will find none of this Najdi innovated stuff in there.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                      I follow the traditional view that actually makes sense, if you read the earliest books regarding shirk and tawheed, you will find none of this Najdi innovated stuff in there.
                      Do you consider anyone who doubts your version of tawheed to be a deviant? You already implied it by saying 'innovated stuff' but I just want you to be clear.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                        Do you consider anyone who doubts your version of tawheed to be a deviant? You already implied it by saying 'innovated stuff' but I just want you to be clear.
                        I believe anyone who believes that the Sahaba and the jahilyyah Arabs were equal in their Belief in tawhid of Lordship to be a deviantโ€ฆ
                        My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                          Do you consider anyone who doubts your version of tawheed to be a deviant? You already implied it by saying 'innovated stuff' but I just want you to be clear.
                          Personally, I stay away from labelling others, like I do not consider "Salafis" as a whole to be a "misguided sect" but their Tawhid is definitely an evil innovation.

                          I believe the concept of tabdee' and takfeer and tadleel for the most part itself is an evil innovation that I would not like to fall in.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                            Personally, I stay away from labelling others, like I do not consider "Salafis" as a whole to be a "misguided sect" but their Tawhid is definitely an evil innovation.

                            I believe the concept of tabdee' and takfeer and tadleel for the most part itself is an evil innovation that I would not like to fall in.
                            I didn't expect a clear answer and you didn't disappoint.

                            This is the result of sectarianism through soundbites.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                              I didn't expect a clear answer and you didn't disappoint.

                              This is the result of sectarianism through soundbites.
                              You are expecting a wrong answer from him.

                              He doesn't operate under the 'deviant' framework to begin with.
                              You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                              You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                                You are expecting a wrong answer from him.

                                He doesn't operate under the 'deviant' framework to begin with.
                                My point was that calling someone a deviant for deviating away from tawheed isn't controversial at all. I think he realised that from my questions which is why he couldn't be clear.

                                I mean, imagine saying that someone's core beliefs are an "evil innovation" but not considering that person to be deviated or misguided. In other words, you can be a 'Sunni' despite your evil innovations in tawheed!

                                Comment

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