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Wahhabi claim: Belief in Rububiyya (lordship) of Allah: Muslims = Pagans

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  • Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post


    Allah has never affirmed tawheed to the pagans, this is a distorted view propagated by salafis.

    How can Allah affirm tawheed rububiyyah to people who commit shirk is his Rububiyyah ?

    You just read fatwas from islamqa & islamweb stating that the pagans committed shirk in rububiyyah ?
    And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, "Allah." So how are they deluded?} [Quran 43:87]:

    "In this verse, Allah, the Exalted, emphasizes the fact that none is worthy of worship save Him, because the polytheists who associated partners with Him in worship admitted that He is the Sole Creator of the heavens, earth, sun, moon, day, and night, and that He is the Sole Sustainer of all Creation, Who grants all beings provisions, and Who has predetermined their destinies and decreed that they should be granted dissimilar amounts of provision in this worldly life, making some rich and some poor. Verily, Allah is the All-Knowing of His slaves, their situations, and what suits them best. The verse underlines that Allah is the Creator of all things and solely manages their affairs.

    You are negating the above verse and looking for fatwas in websites to prove your agenda?
    Worship only the CREATOR, HE is One and HE is the SUSTAINER of the Universe. Do not worship any of HIS creations nor through HIS creations

    Comment


    • Originally posted by aboosait View Post

      And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, "Allah." So how are they deluded?} [Quran 43:87]:

      "In this verse, Allah, the Exalted, emphasizes the fact that none is worthy of worship save Him, because the polytheists who associated partners with Him in worship admitted that He is the Sole Creator of the heavens, earth, sun, moon, day, and night, and that He is the Sole Sustainer of all Creation, Who grants all beings provisions, and Who has predetermined their destinies and decreed that they should be granted dissimilar amounts of provision in this worldly life, making some rich and some poor. Verily, Allah is the All-Knowing of His slaves, their situations, and what suits them best. The verse underlines that Allah is the Creator of all things and solely manages their affairs.

      You are negating the above verse and looking for fatwas in websites to prove your agenda?
      Please read the posts made in this thread where many Ayat and scholarly statements are quoted clearly showing that the polytheists were not monotheists regarding the Lordship of Allah ta'ala.

      By the way: Polytheists by definition believe in the existence of more than one god and this is why they are called "polytheists".

      Please read this here for example:

      ​​
      Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
      The pagans of Makka had no conviction regarding Allah and whether He created everything


      { رَبِّ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَآ إِن كُنتُم مُّوقِنِينَ }
      { لاَ إِلَـٰهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ يُحْيِـي وَيُمِيتُ رَبُّكُمْ وَرَبُّ آبَآئِكُمُ ٱلأَوَّلِينَ }
      { بَلْ هُمْ فِي شَكٍّ يَلْعَبُونَ }

      { The Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; if you people believe. }
      { There is no worship except for Him - He gives life and causes death; your Lord and the Lord of your forefathers. }
      { Rather they are in doubt, playing. }

      [44:7-9]

      { أَمْ خُلِقُواْ مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ ٱلْخَالِقُونَ }
      { أَمْ خَلَقُواْ ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَٱلأَرْضَ بَل لاَّ يُوقِنُونَ }

      { Have they not been created from some source, or are they themselves the creators? }
      { Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather they are not certain. }

      [52:35-36]
      Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

      The reason is as already mentioned above: The pagans did have no real conviction in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala in the first place and were in doubt regarding him.


      Allah ta'ala says:

      { هُوَ ٱلَّذِي خَلَقَكُمْ مِّن طِينٍ ثُمَّ قَضَىۤ أَجَلاً وَأَجَلٌ مُّسَمًّى عِندَهُ ثُمَّ أَنتُمْ تَمْتَرُونَ }

      { It is He Who has created you from clay, and then decreed a term for you; and it is a fixed promise before Him, yet you still doubt! }

      [6:2]

      Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) said in the Tafsir of the above Aya:

      ثُمَّ أنْتُمْ تَمْتُرُونَ }. يقول تعالى ذكره: ثم أنتم تشكون في قدرة من قدر على خلق السموات والأرض، وإظلام الليل وإنارة النهار، وخلقكم من طين حتى صيركم بالهيئة التي أنتم بها على إنشائه إياكم من بعد مماتكم وفنائكم، وإيجاده إياكم بعد عدمكم

      { yet you still doubt! } [with this statement Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says: Then you are still doubting the power / ability of the One, who was able to create the heavens and the earth, and to bring forth night and day, and to create you from clay upon the form that you're upon and to recreate you after your death and annihilation and your non-existance.
      - end of quote -


      These Ayat were already quoted:

      { أَمْ خُلِقُواْ مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ ٱلْخَالِقُونَ }
      { أَمْ خَلَقُواْ ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَٱلأَرْضَ بَل لاَّ يُوقِنُونَ }

      { Have they not been created from some source, or are they themselves the creators? }
      { Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather they are not certain. }

      [52:35-36]

      Imam al-Tabarani (d. 360 AH) said:

      بَل لاَّ يُوقِنُونَ }؛ بالحقِّ وهو توحيدُ اللهِ وقدرتهُ على البعثِ

      { Rather they are not certain. } [meaning] in the truth, and that is the oneness (Tawhid) of Allah and his power / ability (Qudra) to resurrect [the dead].
      - end of quote -

      Imam Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597 AH) said:

      قوله تعالى: { بَلْ لا يوقِنون } بالحق، وهو توحيدُ الله وقدرته على البعث

      His statement: { Rather they are not certain. } [meaning] in the truth, and that is the oneness (Tawhid) of Allah and his power / ability (Qudra) to resurrect [the dead].
      - end of quote -

      Imam al-Nasafi (d. 710 AH) said:

      أَمْ خَلَقُواْ ٱلسَّمَـٰوٰتِ وَٱلأَرْضِ } فلا يعبدون خالقهما { بَل لاَّ يُوقِنُونَ } أي لا يتدبرون في الآيات فيعلموا خالقهم وخالق السماوات والأرض

      { Or did they create the heavens and the earth? }, so that they do not worship the one who created them, { rather they are not certain } meaning: they do not ponder upon the signs so that they know their creator and the creator of the heavens and the earth.
      - end of quote -


      Imam al-Khazin (d. 725 AH) said:

      بل لا يوقنون } أي بالحق وهو توحيد الله تعالى وقدرته على البعث وأن الله تعالى هو خالقهم وخالق السموات والأرض فليؤمنوا به وليوقنوا أنه ربهم وخالقهم

      { rather they are not certain } meaning: In the truth and that is the oneness (Tawhid) of Allah ta'ala and his power to resurrect and that Allah ta'ala is their Creator and the Creator of the heavens and the earth, so they should believe in Him and have conviction that He's their Lord and their Creator.
      - end of quote -

      Imam al-Naysaburi (d. 728 AH) said:

      قال { بل لا يوقنون } وذلك أنه حكى عنهم{ ولئن سألتهم من خلق السموات والأرض ليقولن الله } [لقمان: 25] فتبين أنهم في هذا الاعتراف شاكون إذ لو عرفوه حق معرفته لم يثبتوا له نداً ولم يحسدوا من اختاره للرسالة كما وبخهم عليه بقوله { أم عندهم خزائن ربك } حتى يختاروا للنبوة من أرادوه

      [Allah ta'ala] says { rather they are not certain. } and He has narrated about them { and if you ask them, “Who created the heavens and the earth?” - they will surely answer, “Allah” } [31:25], so it has become clear that they're in doubt regarding what they admitted, because if they had known Him in reality they would have not attested a rival to Him and would have not envied the one whom He has chosen for messengership as He has scolded them for this with His statement { or do they have the treasures of your Lord? } [52:37] so that they can choose for prophethood whom they want.
      - end of quote -

      Imam Abu Hayyan (d. 754 AH) said:

      بل لا يوقنون }: أي إذا سئلوا: من خلقكم وخلق السموات والأرض؟ قالوا: الله، وهم شاكون فيما يقولون لا يوقنون

      { rather they are not certain. } meaning: If they would be asked: Who created them and who created the heavens and earth? They would say: "Allah"; while they are in doubt regarding what they said and not certain regarding it.
      - end of quote -

      Imam Abul Su'ud (d. 951 AH) said:

      أَمْ خَلَقُواْ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَاتِ وَٱلأَرْضَ بَل لاَّ يُوقِنُونَ } أي إذا سئلوا منْ خلقكم وخلق السمواتِ والأرضَ قالوا الله وهم غيرُ موقنينَ بما قالُوا وإلا لما أعرضُوا عن عبادتِه

      {
      Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather they are not certain. } meaning: If they would be asked who created them and the heavens and the earth, they would respond "Allah", but they were not certain regarding what they said otherwise they would have not turned away from His worship.
      - end of quote -

      Read specifically what Imam al-Naysaburi (d. 728 AH) stated.

      ​​​

      Comment


      • Read also this:

        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
        Note how Imam al-Tabari connects the meaning of "Ilah" with that of the attributes of lordship (i.e. not being in need of others and being alone in kingship and dominion), which makes clear that Uluhiyya and Rububiyya are connected to eachother and that the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - called to ONE Tawhid, which includes the meaning of Rububiyya and Uluhiyya at the same time.
        This means that the one dares to claims that the Qur`an al-karim and the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - did not call to the Rububiyya of Allah ta'ala is rejecting hundreds of Ayat and authentic Ahadith!
        Know - may Allah guide you and have mercy upon you - that when Allah ta'ala mentions for example that He's not in need of a supporter or when he says that He has no son or daughter and that He has no partner in his kingship and dominion, then this is because of the disbelievers and polytheists who believe the opposite.

        To further prove the above statement let's see what Imam al-Tabari says regarding the Aya 6:22:

        ثم نَقُولُ للَّذِينَ أشْرَكُوا أيْنَ شُرَكاؤُكُم } يقول: ثم نقول إذا حشرنا هؤلاء المفترين على الله الكذب بادّعائهم له في سلطانه شريكاً والمكذّبين بآياته ورسله، فجمعنا جميعهم يوم القيامة: { أيْنَ شُرَكاؤُكُمُ الَّذِينَ كُنْتُمْ تَزْعُمُونَ } أنهم لكم آلهة من دون الله، افتراء وكذباً، وتدعونهم من دونه أرباباً، فأتوا بهم إن كنتم صادقين

        { then [We] say to the polytheists, “Where are those partners (your false deities) } [with this] He's saying: Then after gathering these people, who lie about Allah with their claim that he has partners in his dominion (Sultan) [over the creation] and who disbelieve in His signs and messengers, so that all of them are gathered on the day of judgement, We'll say to them: { “Where are those partners (your false deities) whom you professed?” } , who in your claim and lie are gods for you besides Allah and whom you call as lords (Arbab) besides Him, so show them [to us] if you're truthful!
        - end of quote -

        Note how the Imam is clearly saying that the polytheists believed that Allah has partners in his dominion and they claimed that there are gods (Aliha) besides Allah and they called them as lords (!!) besides Allah ta'ala! Here we see again connecting the meaning of Rububiyya and Uluhiyya and this is the classical understanding and supported by the clear cut Ayat and Ahadith.

        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
        The article uses the following Aya as a proof that the Makkan pagans accepted the lordship of Allah ta'ala [completely and without any partners]:

        { وَمَا يُؤْمِنُ أَكْثَرُهُمْ بِٱللَّهِ إِلاَّ وَهُمْ مُّشْرِكُونَ }

        { And most of them are such that they do not believe in Allah except while ascribing partners (to Him)! }

        [12:106]

        The answer to their claim is: These pagans that are mentioned in the above Aya accepted SOME attributes of lordship for Allah ta'ala, but still believed that their false deities deserved worship and this based upon their belief that their false deities have also SOME attributes of lordship.


        Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) said in the Tafsir of the above Aya:

        يقول تعالـى ذكره: وما يقر أكثر هؤلاء الذين وصف عزّ وجلّ صفتهم بقوله:{ وكأيِّنْ مِنْ آيَةٍ فِـي السَّمَواتِ والأرْضِ يَـمْرُّونَ عَلَـيْها وَهُمْ عَنْها مُعْرِضُونَ } بـالله، أنه خالقه ورازقه وخالق كلّ شيء، إلا وهم به مشركون فـي عبـادتهم الأوثان والأصنام، واتـخاذهم من دونه أربـابـاً، وزعمهم أنه له ولداً، تعالـى الله عما يقولون

        [Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says: Most of those - whom He 'azza wa jall described with His statement { And how many signs exist in the heavens and the earth, over which most people pass and remain unaware of them! } [12:105] - do not confirm that Allah is their Creator, Sustainer, and the Creator of everything except while ascribing partners to Him by worshiping idols and taking them as lords (Arbab) (!) besides Him and claiming that He has offspring, [high] exalted is Allah above what they claim!
        - end of quote -

        Imam Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597 AH) mentioned three position to whom this Aya refers (the pagans, the christians or the hypocrites) and then he said:

        فان قيل: كيف وصف المشرك بالإِيمان؟ فالجواب: أنه ليس المراد به حقيقة الإِيمان، وإِنما المعنى: أن أكثرهم، مع إِظهارهم الإِيمان بألسنتهم مشركون

        If it is said: How did [Allah] describe the polytheist with belief (Iman)?
        Then the answer is: Real belief is not intended here, rather the meaning is: That most of them - while displaying belief with their tongues - are ascribing partners [to Him].

        - end of quote -

        Imam al-'Izz bin 'Abd al-Salam (d. 660 AH) said:

        مُّشْرِكُونَ } يقولون: الله ربنا وآلهتنا ترزقنا

        { ascribing partners (to Him)! } [the pagans] said: Allah is our lord and our gods are our sustainers.
        - end of quote -


        Conclusion: From the above explanations we understand that real belief is not intended and that these polytheists still ascribed partners to Allah ta'ala in his lordship (as explicitly stated by Imam al-Tabari) and worshiped other than Him based upon this.

        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
        { وَقَالُواْ مَا هِيَ إِلاَّ حَيَاتُنَا ٱلدُّنْيَا نَمُوتُ وَنَحْيَا وَمَا يُهْلِكُنَآ إِلاَّ ٱلدَّهْرُ وَمَا لَهُمْ بِذَلِكَ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَظُنُّونَ }

        { And they said, “There is nothing except our life of this world - we die and we live - and nothing destroys us except the passage of time”; and they do not have any knowledge of it; they only make guesses. }

        [45:24]

        Imam al-Tabari said in the Tafsir of the above Aya after mentioning that this is the statement of the Arab pagans:

        وقوله: { وَما يُهْلِكُنا إلاَّ الدَّهْرُ } يقول تعالى ذكره مخبراً عن هؤلاء المشركين أنهم قالوا: وما يهلكنا فيفنينا إلا مرّ الليالي والأيام وطول العمر، إنكاراً منهم أن يكون لهم ربّ يفنيهم ويهلكهم

        [With] His [mentioning of their] statement { and nothing destroys us except the passage of time } [Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - is informing us about these polytheists that they said: "Nothing destroys us so that we get annihilated except the passage of the nights and the days and the length of [our] lives"; thereby they rejected that they have a Lord (Rabb) who annihilates and destroys them.
        - end of quote -

        The above makes even clearer that they had no conviction regarding Allah ta'ala whatsoever.
        After all these Ayat and explanations of the classical scholars, is it possible for a Muslim to claim that these pagans confirmed the lordship of Allah ta'ala completely and without any partners? Is it possible to claim that the Allah ta'ala and His beloved Messenger - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - only called the pagans to accept the divinity of Allah without his lordship?

        See what Imam al-Tabari said in the Tafsir of Surat al-Fatiha:

        وتأويـل قوله: { إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ }: لك اللهم نـخشع، ونذلّ، ونستكين، إقراراً لك يا ربنا بـالربوبـية لا لغيرك

        The explanation of the statement { You alone we worship } is: For you, o Allah, we humble ourselves, surrender and submit, confirming your lordship (Rububiyya), o our Lord, and not for other than You.
        - end of quote -

        As you see divinity and lordship cannot be seperated from eachother in the understanding of classical scholars like Imam al-Tabari.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

          ..................The explanation of the statement { You alone we worship } is: For you, o Allah, we humble ourselves, surrender and submit, confirming your lordship (Rububiyya), o our Lord, and not for other than You...................
          - end of quote -
          The verse says "You alone we worship".

          Your quote
          "surrender and submit, confirming your lordship (Rububiyya), o our Lord" is not in the verse.

          Is fhis addition to the meaning of the verse another attempt to prove your agenda?

          Allah also says,
          And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, "Allah." So how are they deluded?} [Quran 43:87]:

          Worship only the CREATOR, HE is One and HE is the SUSTAINER of the Universe. Do not worship any of HIS creations nor through HIS creations

          Comment


          • Originally posted by aboosait View Post
            [I]The verse says "You alone we worship".
            Your quote
            "surrender and submit, confirming your lordship (Rububiyya), o our Lord"[B][U] [COLOR=#2980b9]is not in the verse.
            Is fhis addition to the meaning of the verse another attempt to prove your agenda?
            It's not an addition, but rather the explanation given by Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH), who was one of the greatest scholars of Tafsir. You having a problem with classic scholars and their explanations tell us a lot about you.

            Worship is not simply an act, but rather based upon the belief that the being or thing that one directs ones's worship towards has divine attributes (meaning: characteristics of Lordship).

            ​​​​​​Look what Allah ta'ala states:

            { قُلْ لَّوْ كَانَ مَعَهُ آلِهَةٌ كَمَا يَقُولُونَ إِذاً لاَّبْتَغَوْاْ إِلَىٰ ذِي ٱلْعَرْشِ سَبِيلاً }

            { Proclaim (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him), "If there were other Gods besides Him" - as they utter - "then they would have certainly found a way towards * the Owner of the Throne!". (* To fight against Him.) }

            [17:42]

            And Allah ta'ala also states:

            { لَوْ كَانَ فِيهِمَآ آلِهَةٌ إِلاَّ ٱللَّهُ لَفَسَدَتَا فَسُبْحَانَ ٱللَّهِ رَبِّ ٱلْعَرْشِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ }

            { If other than Allah, there were Gods * in the heavens and the earth **, they would be destroyed; therefore Purity is to Allah, Owner of the Throne, from the matters that they fabricate. (* Which is not possible. ** The heavens and the earth.) }

            Note how Aliha is mentioned and connected with characteristics of Lordship (in this case: having divine power)!

            Look also at the following Aya:

            { مَا ٱتَّخَذَ ٱللَّهُ مِن وَلَدٍ وَمَا كَانَ مَعَهُ مِنْ إِلَـهٍ إِذاً لَّذَهَبَ كُلُّ إِلَـٰهٍ بِمَا خَلَقَ وَلَعَلاَ بَعْضُهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ سُبْحَانَ ٱللَّهِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ }

            { Allah has not chosen any child, nor any other God (Ilah) along with Him – were it so, each God (Ilah) would have taken away its creation, and each one would certainly wish superiority over the other; Purity is to Allah above all the matters they fabricate. }

            [23:91]
            So here Ilah is again connected to characteristics of Lordship (in this case: that of creating) and this shows that Uluhiyya (Divinity) and Rububiyya (Lordship) are connected to each other and necessitate each other.

            For this reason the linguist Abu Mansur al-Azhari (d. 370 AH) said in his Tahdhib al-Lugha:

            وقال أبو الهيثم: فالله أصلُه إلاَه، قال الله جل وعز: ((ماَ اتَّخَذَ اللهُ مِنْ وَلَدٍ، وماَ كانَ مَعَهُ مِنْ إلهٍ إذًا لذَهَبَ كلُّ إلهٍ بما خَلَقَ)) . قال: ولا يكون إلها حتى يكون معبودا وحتى يكون لعابده خالقاً، ورازقاً، ومدبِّرا، وعليه مُقتدِرا، فَمن لم يكن كذلك، فليس بإله، وإن عُبِد ظُلماً، بل هو مخلوق ومُتعبد

            Abul Haytham said: The root of [the word] Allah is Ilah. Allah - 'azza wa jall - says: { Allah has not chosen any child, nor any other God (Ilah) along with Him – were it so, each God (Ilah) would have taken away its creation, ... } [23:91].
            He [further] said: [A being] can not be an Ilah except if he's [deserving to be] worshipped and the creator, sustainer and regulator of his worshippers and [he has to] to prevail over them. So whoever is not like that (i.e. has not the mentioned attributes of lordship) is not an Ilah even if he's worshiped unjustly, rather he's created and a slave himself.

            - end of quote -



            Comment


            • Originally posted by aboosait View Post

              Allah also says, [/COLOR][/U][/B][/I]And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, "Allah." So how are they deluded?} [Quran 43:87]:
              ​​​​​​We are commanded to believe in ALL Ayat and not to believe in some and disbelieve in others as the Jews did.

              Allah ta'ala also states:

              { هُوَ ٱلَّذِي خَلَقَكُمْ مِّن طِينٍ ثُمَّ قَضَىۤ أَجَلاً وَأَجَلٌ مُّسَمًّى عِندَهُ ثُمَّ أَنتُمْ تَمْتَرُونَ }

              { It is He Who has created you from clay, and then decreed a term for you; and it is a fixed promise before Him, yet you still doubt! }

              [6:2]

              So tell us: Are you doubting the statement of Allah ta'ala that these polytheists were in doubt regarding Him subhanahu wa ta'ala?

              Imam al-Naysaburi (d. 728 AH) said in his Tafsir:

              قال { بل لا يوقنون } وذلك أنه حكى عنهم{ ولئن سألتهم من خلق السموات والأرض ليقولن الله } [لقمان: 25] فتبين أنهم في هذا الاعتراف شاكون إذ لو عرفوه حق معرفته لم يثبتوا له نداً ولم يحسدوا من اختاره للرسالة كما وبخهم عليه بقوله { أم عندهم خزائن ربك } حتى يختاروا للنبوة من أرادوه

              [Allah ta'ala] says { rather they are not certain. } and He has narrated about them { and if you ask them, “Who created the heavens and the earth?” - they will surely answer, “Allah” } [31:25], so it has become clear that they're in doubt regarding what they admitted, because if they had known Him in reality they would have not attested a rival to Him and would have not envied the one whom He has chosen for messengership as He has scolded them for this with His statement { or do they have the treasures of your Lord? } [52:37] so that they can choose for prophethood whom they want.
              - end of quote -

              And the like of this explanation has been given by basically all scholars of Tafsir (I quoted some of them above).

              ​​​​​​
              ​​​​​​

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                ​​​​​​We are commanded to believe in ALL Ayat and not to believe in some and disbelieve in others as the Jews did.

                Allah ta'ala also states:

                { هُوَ ٱلَّذِي خَلَقَكُمْ مِّن طِينٍ ثُمَّ قَضَىۤ أَجَلاً وَأَجَلٌ مُّسَمًّى عِندَهُ ثُمَّ أَنتُمْ تَمْتَرُونَ }

                { It is He Who has created you from clay, and then decreed a term for you; and it is a fixed promise before Him, yet you still doubt! }

                [6:2]

                So tell us: Are you doubting the statement of Allah ta'ala that these polytheists were in doubt regarding Him subhanahu wa ta'ala?
                I was actually intending to mention the follow Ayat (even if the above Aya also establishes the point mentioned):

                { أَمْ خُلِقُواْ مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ ٱلْخَالِقُونَ }
                { أَمْ خَلَقُواْ ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَٱلأَرْضَ بَل لاَّ يُوقِنُونَ }

                { Have they not been created from some source, or are they themselves the creators? }
                { Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather they are not certain. }

                [52:35-36]



                In addition to the above we find the following Aya:

                { وَلاَ تَسُبُّواْ ٱلَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ فَيَسُبُّواْ ٱللَّهَ عَدْواً بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ كَذَلِكَ زَيَّنَّا لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ عَمَلَهُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّهِمْ مَّرْجِعُهُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُهُمْ بِمَا كَانُواْ يَعْمَلُونَ }

                { Do not abuse those whom they worship besides Allah lest they become disrespectful towards Allah’s Majesty, through injustice and ignorance; likewise, in the eyes of every nation, We have made their deeds appear good - then towards their Lord they have to return and He will inform them of what they used to do. }

                [6:108]

                So these people that you regard as your "brothers in the monotheism of Lordship", were ready to curse Allah ta'ala! So what kind of belief in Allah ta'ala is this!?


                Read also the following post:

                Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                Indeed, but it's worse than that. He calls the Christians - who regards Jesus (peace be upon him) to be God - as "monotheist in Lordship". And he calls the Makkan pagans as such and this while they claimed that angels are daughters of God. What kind of monotheism is this?


                Allah ta'ala states:

                { وَيُسَبِّحُ ٱلرَّعْدُ بِحَمْدِهِ وَٱلْمَلاَئِكَةُ مِنْ خِيفَتِهِ وَيُرْسِلُ ٱلصَّوَاعِقَ فَيُصِيبُ بِهَا مَن يَشَآءُ وَهُمْ يُجَٰدِلُونَ فِي ٱللَّهِ وَهُوَ شَدِيدُ ٱلْمِحَالِ }

                { And the thunder proclaims His praise and so too the angels in awe of Him. He unleashes the thunderbolts and smites with them whom He wills; yet they dispute about God though He is great in might. }

                [Al-Qur`an al-karim 13:13 with English interpretation]


                The following is stated in Tafsir al-Jalalayn (translation found HERE) in its interpretation:

                وَيُسَبِّحُ ٱلرَّعْدُ } هو ملك موكل بالسحاب يسوقه متلبساً { بِحَمْدِهِ } أي يقول: سبحان الله وبحمده { وَ } تسبح { ٱلْمَلاَئِكَةُ مِن خِيفَتِهِ } أي الله { وَيُرْسِلُ ٱلصَّوٰعِقَ } وهي نار تخرج من السحاب { فَيُصِيبُ بِهَا مَن يَشَآءُ } فتحرقه: نزل في رجل بعث إليه النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم من يدعوه فقال: مَن رسول الله؟ وما الله؟ أَمِن ذهب هو؟ أم مِنْ فضة أم مِنْ نحاس؟ فنزلت به صاعقة فذهبت بِقِحْفِ رأسه { وَهُمْ } أي الكفار { يُجَٰدِلُونَ } يخاصمون النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم { فِى ٱللَّهِ وَهُوَ شَدِيدُ ٱلْمِحَالِ } القوّة أو الأخذ

                { And the thunder } — this is an angel who is in charge of the clouds driving them while he constantly { proclaims His praise } that is he says ‘Glory be to God through His praise’ subhāna’Llāh wa-bi-hamdihi { and so too the angels } proclaim His praise { in awe of Him } that is of God. { He unleashes the thunderbolts } — these are a fire which issues forth from the clouds — { and smites with them whom He wills } such that it burns that person this was revealed regarding a man to whom the Prophet had sent someone to invite to Islam and who said Who is the Messenger of God? And what is God? Is He made of gold or of silver or of copper? whereupon a thunderbolt came down on him and blew off the top of his head; { yet they } that is the disbelievers { dispute } argue with the Prophet { about God though He is great in might } in power or in the severity of His retribution.
                - end of quote -


                Note that the above incident can be found mentioned in an authentic report and the person struck by the thunderbolt was one of the leaders of the disbelievers and polytheists. And these are the people whom MIAW (d. 1206 AH) calls as "monotheists in Lordship", wallahul musta'an!

                Just look at this ugly pagan question: "Is He made of gold or of silver or of copper?"
                So are these the people you want us to accept as "monotheists in Lordship"? Look what one of their leaders were asking!!!!

                Comment


                • Instead of being theoretical, why we don't mention practical examples to see who is right?:

                  - ancient Egyptians
                  - ancient Greek
                  - Arabs of the time of ignorance
                  - Hindus
                  - etc.

                  Do you claim that these people were "monotheists in the Lordship of one God" and this while there are clear proofs for the opposite?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                    .............Do you claim that these people were "monotheists in the Lordship of one God" and this while there are clear proofs for the opposite?
                    What Allah says is final. I don't look for proof elsewhere. I have quoted Allah's words concerning the Arab polytheists regarding their belief in Allah's Lordship.

                    {And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, "Allah." So how are they deluded?} [Quran 43:87]:
                    Worship only the CREATOR, HE is One and HE is the SUSTAINER of the Universe. Do not worship any of HIS creations nor through HIS creations

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by aboosait View Post

                      What Allah says is final. I don't look for proof elsewhere. I have quoted Allah's words concerning the Arab polytheists regarding their belief in Allah's Lordship.

                      {And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, "Allah." So how are they deluded?} [Quran 43:87]:
                      And Allah ta'ala also stated that they were in doubt regarding Him and that they would dispute regarding Him! Are you disbelieving in these Ayat?

                      And again: A polytheist is someone, who believes in more than one God. So how is someone, who believes in the existence of several "gods" a monotheist in the Lordship of one God?

                      ​​​Then: Is the one, who asks whether Allah ta'ala is made of silver or something else really a "believer in the monotheism of Lordship" according to you?

                      Comment


                      • For those, who are new the thread:

                        The importance of this issue that some people - due to their ignorance and blindfollowing of the Najdis - claim that the people of Islam and the pagans / polytheists have both the same creed regarding Allah ta'ala.

                        Their leader Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) claimed that "the disbelievers testified lordship (Rububiyya) completely for Allah " and this implies his own disbelief in many Ayat.

                        The reason for these ugly claims is that they want to claim that the Muslims of the past on the Arabian peninsula and other than it were upon polytheism and that their belief in Allah ta'ala does not save them, because the polytheists also believed in Allah ta'ala in the same manner as the Muslims as they claim.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by aboosait View Post

                          And if you asked them who created them, they would surely say, "Allah." So how are they deluded?} [Quran 43:87]:

                          "In this verse, Allah, the Exalted, emphasizes the fact that none is worthy of worship save Him, because the polytheists who associated partners with Him in worship admitted that He is the Sole Creator of the heavens, earth, sun, moon, day, and night, and that He is the Sole Sustainer of all Creation, Who grants all beings provisions, and Who has predetermined their destinies and decreed that they should be granted dissimilar amounts of provision in this worldly life, making some rich and some poor. Verily, Allah is the All-Knowing of His slaves, their situations, and what suits them best. The verse underlines that Allah is the Creator of all things and solely manages their affairs.

                          You are negating the above verse and looking for fatwas in websites to prove your agenda?

                          You should follow the advice given by AmantuBillahi

                          Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab's issue was that he took certain verses in isolation to others and misconstrued the theology of the Pagan Arabs. The Quran and Hadith literature needs to be taken in totality in order to have a comprehensive view on any subject.

                          In Surah 13:5 Allah says the pagans have disbelieved in Him, in Surah 39:3 Allah says that the pagans took protectors besides Him. Now how can people who disbelieved in Allah, ascribed partners in His Rububiyyah have tawheed rububiyyah ? Please show us explicitly where Allah affirms that polytheists have tawheed rububiyah ?


                          Even in the ayah that you keep on citing why is Allah calling them deluded, do you understand ? The pagans are contradicting what they're saying with their tongues by their actions, if you believe that Allah is your only Rabb then you will worship Him alone but if you believe in multiple lords you'll worship multiple lords.

                          Originally posted by aboosait View Post

                          You are negating the above verse and looking for fatwas in websites to prove your agenda?
                          I'm not negating any ayah, if anything it's due to your own misinterpretation and reading ayat in isolation that is forcing you to have a different understanding.

                          You've copied & pasted from islamweb the passages that validated your own understanding yet accuse others of "shopping for fatwas". Why didn't you include the fatwa question


                          Assalaamu alaykum, Shaykh. I read your previous fatwas, and you claim that the polytheists of Makkah believed in Tawheed Ar-Ruboobiyyah (Oneness of Lordship)? We agree that believing that Allah has offspring amounts to Shirk (polytheism) in Ruboobiyyah, and the polytheists of Makkah believed angels to be the daughters of Allah, so why then do Wahabis/Salafis claim that the polytheists of Makkah believed in Tawheed Ar-Ruboobiyyah? We clearly know that the pagan Makkans believed that angels are the daughters of Allah.
                          "In this verse, Allah, the Exalted, emphasizes the fact that none is worthy of worship save Him, because the polytheists who associated partners with Him in worship admitted that He is the Sole Creator of the heavens, earth, sun, moon, day, and night, and that He is the Sole Sustainer of all Creation, Who grants all beings provisions, and Who has predetermined their destinies and decreed that they should be granted dissimilar amounts of provision in this worldly life, making some rich and some poor. Verily, Allah is the All-Knowing of His slaves, their situations, and what suits them best.

                          The verse underlines that Allah is the Creator of all things and solely manages their affairs. If this is the case, then why is other than Him worshipped? Why is other than Him relied upon? Just as He is One in His dominion, He should be One in worship. The polytheists used to admit His Ruboobiyyah, as in their Talbiyah during the pre-Islamic pilgrimage: 'Labbayka la shareeka laka, illa Shareekan huwa laka, Tamlikuhu wa-ma malak.' (At Your service! You have no associates save the one who is Yours. You have dominion over him and over what He possesses.)
                          " So this is not the claim of those you referred to as "Wahabis or Salafis".

                          This amount of Ruboobiyyah existed in those who believed that the angels are the daughters of Allah. They did not believe that the angels created them along with Allah or the like of the attributes of Ruboobiyyah mentioned above.


                          It is worth highlighting that the Muslim should beware of letting such titles (like Sufis, Wahabis, and the like) stop him from accepting the truth when it becomes clear to him. Verily, rejecting the truth is one of the key reasons for the disunity of Muslims. Allah, the Exalted, says (what means): {And from those who say, "We are Christians," We took their covenant, but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So, We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.} [Quran 5:14]

                          Islamweb: Pre-Islam Makkans believed in Tawheed Ar-Ruboobiyyah Fatwa No: 359086

                          Comment


                          • Abu Sulayman

                            This might be slightly off-topic but I'm not sure if you knew that brother Ismail Ibrahim (Harris Hammam) is now openly against Najdism/Wahhabism:



                            Although he might have been like this for quite some time now and maybe I just wasn't fully certain of it. I did know that he was rather close and supportive of Shaykh Yasir Qadhi, which perhaps in and of itself is a hint.

                            Comment


                            • This one is kind of funny:


                              Comment


                              • I have quoted a verse from the Quran and you people are quoting the belief of this website and that.
                                Worship only the CREATOR, HE is One and HE is the SUSTAINER of the Universe. Do not worship any of HIS creations nor through HIS creations

                                Comment

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