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  • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

    From my point of view I have no problem accepting these statements from the Hanabila. I also believe that Allah is literally Above the Throne by His Essence, without being in a place (outside of the creation is not a "place"), without being confined by anything (there's nothing to confine him), and His Essence is not limited.

    ...
    Not a scholar, and this discussion is way out of my league, but I just wanted to get your thoughts on the following hadith. Am not a native Arabic speaker and am struggling to learn the basics of Arabic currently. Please could you translate the following hadith and comment on whether it changes your view on this or not:

    حَدَّثَنِي زُهَيْرُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ، حَدَّثَنَا جَرِيرٌ، عَنْ سُهَيْلٍ، قَالَ كَانَ أَبُو صَالِحٍ يَأْمُرُنَا إِذَا أَرَادَ أَحَدُنَا أَنْ يَنَامَ أَنْ يَضْطَجِعَ عَلَى شِقِّهِ الأَيْمَنِ ثُمَّ يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ اللَّهُمَّ رَبَّ السَّمَوَاتِ وَرَبَّ الأَرْضِ وَرَبَّ الْعَرْشِ الْعَظِيمِ رَبَّنَا وَرَبَّ كُلِّ شَىْءٍ فَالِقَ الْحَبِّ وَالنَّوَى وَمُنْزِلَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَالإِنْجِيلِ وَالْفُرْقَانِ أَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ شَرِّ كُلِّ شَىْءٍ أَنْتَ آخِذٌ بِنَاصِيَتِهِ اللَّهُمَّ أَنْتَ الأَوَّلُ فَلَيْسَ قَبْلَكَ شَىْءٌ وَأَنْتَ الآخِرُ فَلَيْسَ بَعْدَكَ شَىْءٌ وَأَنْتَ الظَّاهِرُ فَلَيْسَ فَوْقَكَ شَىْءٌ وَأَنْتَ الْبَاطِنُ فَلَيْسَ دُونَكَ شَىْءٌ اقْضِ عَنَّا الدَّيْنَ وَأَغْنِنَا مِنَ الْفَقْرِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَكَانَ يَرْوِي ذَلِكَ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏.‏

    - Sahih Muslim 2713 a (باب مَا يَقُولُ عِنْدَ النَّوْمِ وَأَخْذِ الْمَضْجَعِ
    )
    (Hadith is also found in Sunan Abi Dawud, Adab al-Mufrad and in Tirmidhi).

    In addition, to help you translate, here is a famous saying (not a hadith of Rasulallah alayhis salam):
    إِذَا ظَلَمْتَ مَنْ دَوْنَكَ فَلَا تَأْمَنْ عِقَابَ مَنْ فَوْقَكَ
    If you struggle translating a particular word, you can try using Aratools, or an online dictionary.
    Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 10-02-20, 02:07 AM. Reason: Added mention of Aratools.
    Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
    "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
    Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

    Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
    1/116

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

      Not a scholar, and this discussion is way out of my league, but I just wanted to get your thoughts on the following hadith. Am not a native Arabic speaker and am struggling to learn the basics of Arabic currently. Please could you translate the following hadith and comment on whether it changes your view on this or not:



      (Hadith is also found in Sunan Abi Dawud, Adab al-Mufrad and in Tirmidhi).

      In addition, to help you translate, here is a famous saying (not a hadith of Rasulallah alayhis salam):


      If you struggle translating a particular word, you can try using Aratools, or an online dictionary.
      Kind of slimy, but nice.

      I'm familiar with the Dhahir/Batin Hadith and follow the view of the scholars that interpret it as "You are the Hidden; there is nothing more nearer than you (in knowledge). This is more consistent with the Quran/Sunnah and the Ijma of the Salaf concerning Allah's Elevation and Nearness.

      Comment


      • Interesting blog on Ibn Qudama and Tafwid:

        https://aqeedah.wordpress.com/2006/0...ama-on-tafwid/

        Comment


        • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
          Interesting blog on Ibn Qudama and Tafwid:

          https://aqeedah.wordpress.com/2006/0...ama-on-tafwid/
          It's not like anything will be solved by posting random links otherwise your opponent can also easily post links like this one:

          http://www.darultahqiq.com/imam-ibn-...awwi%E1%B8%8D/

          And: There are statements made by scholars which one may understand differently and then there are statements which do not leave any room for misunderstandings.
          In order to understand this issue correctly one should refer to clear statementw which do not leave any room for misunderstandings and this was already done here!:

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          Imam Ibn Qudama says in the section regarding the Muhkam and the Mutashabih in the Qur`an al-karim in his famous Rawdhat al-Nadhir:

          وفي كتاب الله -سبحانه- محكم ومتشابه، كما قال تعالى: {هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ

          The book of Allah - praise be to Him - contains the Muhkam (verses with clear meanings) and the Mutashabih (verses with indistinct meanings) as He ta'ala says:
          { It is He Who has sent down to you this Book (the Qur’an) containing the verses that have a clear meaning - they are the core of the Book - and other verses the meanings of which are indistinct; ... } [3:7]

          - end of quote -

          Thereafter he mentions different scholarly statements until he says:

          والصحيح: أن المتشابه: ما ورد في صفات الله -سبحانه- مما يجب الإيمان به، ويحرم التعرض لتأويله، كقوله -تعالى-: {الرَّحْمَنُ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَى} ، {بَلْ يَدَاهُ مَبْسُوطَتَان} ، {لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَي} ، {وَيَبْقَى وَجْهُ رَبِّك} ، {تَجْرِي بِأَعْيُنِنَا} ، ونحوه. فهذا اتفق السلف -رحمهم الله- على الإقرار به، وإمراره على وجهه وترك تأويله. فإن الله -سبحانه- ذم المبتغين لتأويله، وقرنهم -في الذم- بالذين يبتغون الفتنة، وسماهم أهل زيغ

          The correct position is that the Mutashabih (verses with indistinct meanings) is that which is revealed regarding the attributes of Allah - praise be to Him -, which is obligatory to have faith in and prohibited to seek its interpretation; like His ta'ala statement:
          { The Most Gracious Who (befitting His Majesty) established Himself upon the Throne (of control) } [20:5], { In fact, both His hands are free } [5:64], { before one whom I have created with My hands? } [38:75], { And eternal is the Entity of your Lord } [55:27], { Sailing in front of Our sight } [54:14] and whatever is similar to it.
          Regarding these [verses and narrations] the Salaf - may Allah have mercy upon them - have agreed upon affirming them and passing them as they have come and abstaining from their interpretation, for indeed Allah - praise be to Him - has rebuked those seeking its interpretation and has included them - in censure - with those are seeking turmoil and has named them as people of deviation.

          - end of quote -

          Thereafter he explains the Aya 3:7 and that only Allah ta'ala knows the correct interpretation and that the correct stop is after { and only Allah knows its proper interpretation } until he says:

          فلأنه ذم مبتغي التأويل، ولو كان ذلك للراسخين معلومًا: لكان مبتغيه ممدوحًا لا مذمومًا. ولأن قولهم {آمَنَّا بِهِ} يدل على نوع تفويض وتسليم لشيء لم يقفوا على معناه. سيما إذا اتبعوه بقولهم: {كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا} فذكرهم ربهم -ههنا- يعطي الثقة به، والتسليم لأمره، وأنه صدر منه، وجاء من عنده كما جاء من عنده المحكم

          Since He has rebuked those seeking interpretation: If this [proper] interpretation would be known to those sound in knowledge, then the one seeking [the interpretation] would have been praised and not censured and because their statement { We believe in it } indicates a type of consignment (!) (Tafwidh) and submission (Taslim) of something regarding which they have not come across its meaning (Ma'na), especially when they followed it with their statement { all of it is from our Lord }, so their mentioning of their Lord here shows their trust in Him and their submission to His command and that it emanated from Him and that it came from Him just like the Muhkam (verses with clear meanings) came from Him.
          - end of quote -

          So here we see that he explicitly mentioned the consignment (Tafwidh) of the meaning (Ma'na)!

          He kept on explaining until he said:

          فإن قيل: فكيف يخاطب الله الخلق بما لا يعقلونه، أم كيف ينزل على رسوله ما لا يطلع على تأويله؟ قلنا: يجوز أن يكلفهم الإيمان بما لا يطلعون على تأويله؛ ليختبر طاعتهم، كما قال -تعالي-: {وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُمْ حَتَّى نَعْلَمَ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ مِنْكُمْ وَالصَّابِرِين} ، {وَمَا جَعَلْنَا الْقِبْلَةَ الَّتِي كُنْتَ عَلَيْهَا إِلَّا لِنَعْلَم ... } الآية، {وَمَا جَعَلْنَا الرُّؤْيا الَّتِي أَرَيْنَاكَ إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِلنَّاس} . وكما اختبرهم بالإيمان بالحروف المقطعة مع أنه لا يعلم معناها. والله أعلم

          If it is said: "How then does Allah address the creation with something that they do not comprehend or how does He sent down something on his Messenger regarding which the interpretation is not disclosed?"
          We say: It is possible that He tasks them with having faith in something regarding which they do not know its interpretation in order to test their obediance as [Allah] ta'ala says:
          { And We shall indeed test you until We make known the warriors and the steadfast among you } [47:31], { We had appointed the qiblah which you formerly observed only to see (test) ... } [2:143] until the end of the Aya, { and We did not create the spectacle which We showed you except to try mankind } [17:60].
          Just like He has tested them with having faith in the disconnected letters (!) (al-Huruf al-Muqatta'a) even though their meaning is not known. And Allah knows best.

          - end of quote -

          I guess the above answer is more than clear [in defending Tafwidh] and a good response to the "Salafis" who repeat the same question today and attack the people of the Sunna by saying "How is it possible that Allah reveals something while the meaning is not known?". Know that other Hanbali A`imma have also answered this question.

          Comment


          • Note that the above quotes are taken from Rawdhat al-Nadhir, which means that the author is not arguing with anyone or refuting anyone, but rather stating the issues as they are in his understanding.

            In the above we see several points clearly established:

            - That the Ayat regarding the [divine] attributes are from the Mutashabihat and that the correct interpretation of these Ayat are only known to Allah ta'ala as per the Aya 3:7 and that the correct stop in wording and meaning is after { and only Allah knows its proper interpretation }.
            - That the statement { We believe in it } of those having sound knowledge indicates a type of consignment (!) (Tafwidh) and submission (Taslim) of something regarding which they have not come across its meaning (Ma'na).
            - That having faith in these Ayat without knowing their true meaning or interpretation is correct and that Allah ta'ala tasked us with this to test our obedience and what is similar to that is that He ta'ala has tested us with believing in the Huruf al-Muqatta`a (like "Alif Lam Mim", "Ya Sin", etc.) while we don't know its meaning.

            Note that "Salafis" reject all three points mentioned by the author (Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH))!
            And comparing our belief in these Ayat and Ahadith with that of the Huruf al-Muqatta'a DESTROYS the claim of the rejectors of Tafwidh.

            So if one wants to establish a point, then let him refer to clear-cut statements (as done above!) and not statement that can be understood in several ways!

            Then: The Hanabila do NOT consist of one or two persons and have relied upon books in beliefs, where they explain their beliefs. Referring to the works is mandatory to understand them correctly.

            But we know with CERTAINTY that the "Salafis" do not teach these books (with the exception of very few books and then only with their own explanations!) and we KNOW that they only print these books by adding hundreds of footnotes, which reject the statements made by the [classical Hanbali] authors on almost every page.
            From this it is safe to conclude that they're not upon the same beliefs!

            This much should be enough regarding the beliefs of the Hanabila in comparison to the "Salafis".


            And: The Sunni scholarship does not consist of the Hanabila only! What about the Ash'aris and Maturidis? What about the beliefs of the founders of the first three Madhahib? What about books like Fiqh al-Akbar, Fiqh al-Absat or al-Wasiyya (all by the founder of the Hanafi Madhhab), which are all clearly in contradiction to "Salafis" beliefs? What about the great and leading scholars of this Umma, who have transmitted this religion and are known for their uprightness? What happened to them? Are they all thrown away based upon the lies of the worthless revisionists?
            Or do you say that only you and what you understood from the Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya is correct? And why are you only referring to those Athar from the Salaf al-salih (and sometimes those you're referring to are not from the blessed generations or the statements are taken from incorrect sources or their are more precise versions of these Athar!) which you think supports your views without even referring to the rest of their statements!? What kind of attitude is that?


            Now only the issue that you called as the "Ash'ari concept of Tajsim" remains: After clarifying this also, there will not remain any further points for discussion.
            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 10-02-20, 05:46 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
              Now only the issue that you called as the "Ash'ari concept of Tajsim" remains: After clarifying this also, there will not remain any further points for discussion.
              I don't need you to gather an article on what the Asharis consider to be a Jism or Tashbih.

              1. Do you believe that Allah has an Essence?
              2. Where is Allah's Essence?

              Comment


              • Let‘s make the issue of Tajsim easy understandable (unlike what "Salafi“ Mashayikh do by mentioning different unclear definitions without even mentioning the common understanding in order to hide their Tajsim from the people!):

                Tajsim = The belief that God is a Jism (body)

                Body = Something that has the three 3 dimensions of space = Something that has height / length , breadth / width and depth

                So anything where you‘re able to differentiate between a front / right / up side and a back / left / down side in a sensory manner is a body!

                It does not make any difference after this whether one believes that God has a finite or infinite height, breadth and depth, because it‘s both Tajsim!

                The above belief is what ALL Sunnis (Ash’aris, Maturidis and Hanbalis) called as Tajsim and disbelief!


                Now the next issue is that of a Madhhab (way) or Qawl (statement) and what it necessitates (Lawazim).
                According to the Muhaqiqin the ruling that applies to that which a statement necessitates is not necessarily like the ruling of the statement itself.

                To make the issue clear I‘ll give three example (while the first statement does not actually necessitate anything wrong!):

                1) Someone says that God is above the throne and above the creation in an absolute way while at the same time believing that this Highness is befitting His Greatness and not a sensory one.
                This statement in itself does necessitate anything wrong.

                2) Someone believes in a sensory Highness of God, while rejecting that which it necessitates from the belief in Tajsim and limitation.
                This persons statement is wrong, but the ruling of Tajsim does not apply to him in reality.

                3) Someone believes in a sensory Highness and at the same time that God is limited and / or that the common meaning of a body (mentioned above) applies to Him.
                This person is a Mujassim!

                (The third is what the "Salafi" Mashayikh believe in their books, while the second is usually believed by their laymen.)


                Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

                I don't need you to gather an article on what the Asharis consider to be a Jism or Tashbih.

                1. Do you believe that Allah has an Essence?
                2. Where is Allah's Essence?
                1) Allah ta‘ala has an essence and His reality is beyond our imagination and comprehension.

                2) If "where" is a question regarding place, then location / place / space does not apply to Allah ta'ala, because Allah ta'ala existed and there was no place, then after creating place He did not change and He is now as He was before creating place.

                If however you’re intending his status and greatness and what is similar to that, then He‘s obviously above everything!
                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 11-02-20, 06:03 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  1) Allah ta‘ala has an essence and His reality is beyond our imagination and comprehension.

                  2) If "where" is a question regarding place, then location / place / space does not apply to Allah ta'ala, because Allah ta'ala existed and there was no place, then after creating place He did not change and He is now as He was before creating place.

                  If however you’re intending his status and greatness and what is similar to that, then He‘s obviously above everything!
                  I would love to continue poking holes in what you're preaching and exposing your intellectual dishonesty, but I've realized this serves little benefit for you or anyone else who might be reading.

                  The matter is clear as day for me. Thank you for increasing my Imaan and conviction in Salafi/Athari Islam. I'll try my best to avoid quoting you for a little while, despite how juicy and easy your posts are to respond to.

                  May Allah free us from hypocrisy.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                    1. Do you believe that Allah has an Essence?
                    2. Where is Allah's Essence?
                    1. Yes
                    2. Above the Heavens; Over His Throne; with all His Names & Attributes; and His Knowledge and Power is everywhere

                    http://www.as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=119&lang=en

                    Comment


                    • Note: If the Asharis only consider it "false/contradictory" to believe that Allah is Above the Throne by His Essence without it "limiting" Him, and not necessarily "Tajsim", then this still proves that they were theologically inconsistent with the Salaf and the Hanabila. That is what matters most for someone seeking the true path.

                      This still "contradicts" Tajsim (Kalam), even if you don't necessarily fall into it.
                      Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 13-02-20, 02:42 PM.

                      Comment


                      • "Yet the belief that He exists in a place is what yesterday's and today's anthropomorphists pass as the opinion of the Salaf. However, just because someone lived in the first three centuries, it does not mean that he represented the doctrine of the Salaf. It will be clear from the forthcoming opinions of the Salaf and Khalaf that the correct position of Ahl al-Sunna never adds "in person" or "literally" -- which is to specify a modality -- to the mention of Allah's establishment on the Throne, and that to suggest space in the slightest manner is to leave Islam."

                        http://www.sunnah.org/anthro/anthro7.html

                        Comment


                        • Here's an interesting article on an early Ashari scholar, Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani (d. 386), who affirmed Allah's Uluw bi-Dhatihi:

                          http://www.abovethethrone.com/arsh/a...-bil-dhaat.cfm

                          Comment


                          • Notes from Yasir Qadhi's Ilm al-Kalam lecture:

                            https://m2w4k5m5.stackpathcdn.com/wp...erspective.pdf

                            The Theological Implications of Ibrahim and the Story of the Stars (Ibn Taymiyyah vs the Mutakalimin) -- Yasir Qadhi:

                            https://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27...n-yasir-qadhi/

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

                              I would love to continue poking holes in what you're preaching and exposing your intellectual dishonesty, but I've realized this serves little benefit for you or anyone else who might be reading.

                              The matter is clear as day for me. Thank you for increasing my Imaan and conviction in Salafi/Athari Islam. I'll try my best to avoid quoting you for a little while, despite how juicy and easy your posts are to respond to.

                              May Allah free us from hypocrisy.
                              Let me remind you that you‘re the one who's running away from clarifying his creed, while I said clearly and openly what I believe.

                              Let me also remind you that you mentioned that Tashbih only happens if one attributes likeness or similarity to the Creator, while it was shown to you that Ibn 'Uthaymin - an authority in creed for ""Salafis"! - explicitly claimed that there is some similarity between the Creator and the creation (High Exalted is Allah ta'ala above these statements of disbelief!), but you ignored that and did not even dare to mention it.

                              Let me also remind you that you mentioned that "Salafis“ do not believe that God is a body, while it was shown to you that someone like Haitham Hamdan - whom the English speaking "Salafis" regard as very knowledgeable regarding these issues! - explicitly ascribed a size to Allah ta'ala (which is pure anthropomorphism and disbelief!) and you again ignored that and did not even dare to say anything regarding that!

                              This is what should be called as dishonesty!


                              Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                              Here's an interesting article on an early Ashari scholar, Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani (d. 386), who affirmed Allah's Uluw bi-Dhatihi:

                              http://www.abovethethrone.com/arsh/a...-bil-dhaat.cfm
                              It‘s indeed interesting how low the level of understanding of these "Salafis“ is to the degree that they quote what goes against their way without even realizing it and thinking it supports them!

                              Did you see how in the very link you posted the Qadhi 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 422 AH) explained the issue and said (translation taken from your link; it's correct):

                              واعلم أن الوصف له تعالى بالاستواء إتباع للنص، وتسليم للشرع، وتصديق لما وصف نفسه تعالى به، ولا يجوز أن نثبت له كيفية، لأن الشرع لم يرد بذلك، ولا أخبر النبي – صلى الله عليه وسلم – فيه بشيء، ولا سألته الصحابة عنه، ولأن ذلك يرجع إلى التنقل والنحول واشغال الحيز والافتقار إلى الأماكن، وذلك يؤول إلى التجسيم، وإلى قدم الأجسام، وهذا كفر عند كافة أهل الإسلام، وقد أجمل مالك رحمه الله الجواب عن سؤال من سأله: (الرَّحْمَنُ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَى) كيف استوى؟ فقال: الاستواء منه غير مجهول، والكيف منه غير معقول، والسؤال عن هذا بدعة، ثم أمر بإخراج السائل

                              Know that the description for Allaah with al-Istiwaa is (out of) following the text, submission to the Shariah, and believing in what Allaah described Himself with. It is not permissible for kaifiyyah to be established for it, because the Shariah has not related that, and nor did the Prophet (alayhis salaam) inform of anything about it, and nor did the Companions ask about it.
                              And because that (kaifiyyah) returns back to transportation (tanaqqul), change (tahawwul), occupation (ishghaal) of a void (hayyiz) and need for places (amaakin), and this then leads to tajseem and to the eternity of bodies, and this is disbelief to all the people of Islaam.
                              And Imaam Maalik (rahimahullaah) gave a beautiful response to the question of the one who asked him, "The Most Merciful made istiwaa over the Throne, how did He ascend?", so he said, "Al-Istiwaa from Him is not unknown, the kayf (how) is not fathomable, asking about it is an innovation," then he ordered the man to be expelled.

                              - end of quote -

                              So he‘s rejecting modality regarding Allah ta'ala (unlike "Salafis") and he‘s clearly not intending sensory Highness and explicitly denying Tahayyuz (spatial confinement)!
                              But to the whom am I saying this. You people have no understanding anyways! We ask Allah ta'ala for well-being.
                              Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 13-02-20, 01:52 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Concerning the Affirmation and Negation of al-Hadd and the doubts of the Jahmites:

                                "From the talbīs of the Jahmiyyah is their deceiving of the people regarding the words ḥadd, and taḥdīd, and the manner in which they have been used by the Imams of the Salaf in various contexts and situations - all in order to support their Jahmite creed of negating their is a Lord above the Throne."

                                http://www.asharis.com/creed/article...he-jahmite.cfm

                                Download link:

                                http://www.asharis.com/creed/dld.cfm...add-tahdid.pdf

                                Comment

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