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  • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

    And who told you that the statement that Allah ta'ala is above the throne means that He's in a place?
    According to Imam Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi (d. 388 AH) this statement does not mean that Allah ta'ala is in contact to the throne or located there or occupied by one of its directions, rather it means that He's beyond or distinct (ba`in) from his creation! (See A'lam al-Hadith!)
    And this is what the Ash'aris also mentioned!
    And this is what is also understood by Imam al-Mar'is quote above!

    AND: Imam Ibn Hamdan al-Hanbali (d. 695 AH) stated in his Nihayat al-Mubtadi`in AFTER affirming the Istiwa` of Allah ta'ala without modality (bila kayf) that whoever says that the divine essence is in every place or in a place, then he is a DISBELIEVER. This is explicitly stated by him and in Qala`id al-'Iqyan and by other than them.
    By "in a place" I didn't mean that He was confined by anything or in His creation. However, if He's Above the Throne and not here on Earth, then "Where?" would apply to Him and He'd have a limit (as the Salaf have confirmed).

    He is Above His Throne. That's where Allah is. He's not here on Earth; He's up there Above the heavens (in a manner which Befits His Majesty).

    This belief conflicts with what modern Asharis believe. Do you disagree?
    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 06-02-20, 11:22 PM.

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    • Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 06-02-20, 11:51 PM.

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      • Abdullāh Ibn Al-Mubārak (d. 181H) said: “We know our Lord, the Mighty and Majestic, is above the Seven Heavens, over His Throne, separate (bā’in بائن) from the creation with a limit (bi-haddin بحد) – and we do not say as the Jahmiyyah say, that He is here” – and Ibn Al-Mubārak pointed to the earth.”

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        • https://www.as-salaf.com/index.php?lang=en

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          • Abu Sulayman Anyone who believes that Allah is actually Above the Throne like the Quran/Hadith mention has contradicted Tafwid al-Ma'na/Kayf.

            Comment


            • There is a problem in your methodology. The statement of the Hanabila is to be understood AS EXPLAINED BY THEMSELVES in their books and not as explained by anyone else! Please refer to explanation of the the Hanbalis.

              As for the statement of Imam Ibn Mubarak (d. 181 AH), then it's a response to those who believe that Allah is in every place and the intention here is to clarify that Allah ta'ala is beyond his creation and NOT to establish a physical direction from the other side.

              Anyways let's get back to what the Hanbalis have explicitly stated in their books (and the Ash'aris agree with them regarding this!):

              First: It's the throne and the creation that is finite and limited and NOT Allah ta'ala.

              Second: Place (Makan) [or time] and occupying space (Tahayyuz or Hayz) does not apply to Allah ta'ala.

              Third: The creation can not comprehend the reality of Allah's essence, because He's beyond our imagination.

              Now if someone is imagining that after the creation ends a 3-dimensional being or thing (i.e. body!) is physically facing it and above it and that this is God (we seek refuge from believing this!), then this is exactly what the Hanbalis [and Ash'aris] have regarded as Tajsim. And this would at the same make God imaginable and this is not befitting His essence, whereas the Hanbalis have stressed that Allah ta'ala is beyond imagination.
              Don't let the "Salafis" or the "asharis"-website fool you and confuse you regarding the meaning of Jism (body) by mentioning different definitions without telling you that there is actually a common understanding, which everyone would call as Tajsim and that is to regard God as something with a length, breadth and depth.
              The thing here is that our imagination is bound to time and place and we're not able to imagine something without these two concepts and since Allah ta'ala is beyond these concepts, the scholars have said that one should ponder about the creation of Allah and not about the essence of Allah, because that will lead inevitability to Tashbih and Tajsim!
              AND: When the creation ends it's wrong to think that the concepts of time and place exist beyond them and start imagining the existance of Allah ta'ala with these concept, because this will inevitably lead to think about Allah in the manner of bodies!


              Let's now refer to a book which has been accepted by the Sada al-Hanabila (as mentioned by the Imam Ibn Balban al-Hanbali (d. 1083 AH)) and that was specifically written for students of knowledge as a summary of the Sunni Hanbali 'Aqida (as mentioned by the author in the beginning of the book itself) and that is the book Nihayat al-Mubtadi`in fi Usul al-Din by Imam Ibn Hamdan (d. 695 AH). Imam al-Dhahabi (d. 748 AH) introduced him in his Siyar A'lam al-Nubala` by calling him "the Shaykh, the Imam, the 'Allama, the Qadhi (judge) and the Shaykh of the Hanabila".

              Imam Ibn Hamdan said in Nihayat al-Mubtadi`in (see page 30-31):

              Allah ta'ala is not a particle (Jawhar) or an accident ('Aradh) or a body (Jism) and temporality (Hawadith) does not indwell in Him and He does not indwell in what is emergent (Hadith) nor is He confined by it, rather He is beyond [and distinct from] (ba`in) his creation. Allah is upon the throne ('ala al-'Arsh) not with a limitation [that limits him], rather the limitation is that of the throne and of that which is besides it [from the creation]; and Allah is above (fawq) that without place (Makan) or limit (Hadd), because He existed and there was no place (Makan), then He created place and He is as He was before creating place.
              He is not known through the senses (Hawas) and He can not be compared to humans and there is no entry for analogy [or comparing] (Qiyas) regarding His essence and attributes. He has not taken a wife or a child [for Himself], rather He's free of any needs. He's not similar to anything and nothing is similar to Him. Whosoever attributes similarity to Him with His creation has disbelieved. This is what [Imam] Ahmad stated; and the same goes regarding the one who regards him a body. Or if someone says "He's a body unlike [other] bodies" (Jism la kal Ajsam). This was mentioned by al-Qadhi [Abu Ya'la].
              Imagination does not reach Him and comprehension does not grasp Him. He's not similar to the creation and no examples can be given in behalf of Him. He's not known by the sayings [of the people].
              Whatever comes to the mind or [can] be conveived by the imagination, then He is different from that, the Lord of Majesty and Bounty.

              Section

              We're certain that Allah is in the heaven (fil Sama`) and that He's established above the throne (Istawa 'ala al-Arsh) without modality (bila kayf), and all that in the manner befitting him. We do not interpret that nor do we explain it or ascribe modality or imagine it or specify it or reject it or deny it, rather we relegate its knowledge to Allah ta'ala.
              We're certain in denying attributing similarity (Tashbih) or attributing corporeality (Tajsim) or any flaw and that is the ruling [to be followed] for all verses (Ayat) concerning the [divine] attributes and the authentic and explicit narrations.
              [Imam] Ahmad said : "We believe that Allah is above the throne ('ala al-'Arsh) as He intends without modality (bila kayf) or a description that a describer can reach or a limit (Hadd) that limits him."
              So whoever says that He's - with His essence - in every place or in [some] place, then he's a disbeliever (Kafir), because this [belief] necessitates place (Makan) to be eternal and that [Allah] is occupying filthy places and other than them; High Exalted is Allah above that. And this does not negate Him being in the heaven (fil Sama`) and above the throne ('ala al-'Arsh) in the manner befitting him, as clarified. And the same statement applies regarding the narration of descent (Nuzul) and other than it which has an authentic chain and explicit in wording, so that it's impossible to understand it literally.

              - end of quote -
              Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 07-02-20, 04:04 PM.

              Comment


              • Imam Ibn Hamdan (d. 695 AH) then said on page 32:

                Al-Tamimi (d. 410 AH) said in I'tiqad [al-Imam] Ahmad regarding the narration of descent: "Change in place (Intiqal) is not possible regarding Him nor occupying places".
                ...
                Abu Nasr al-Sijzi said (d. 444 AH): "In the statement that Allah is above the throne ('ala al-'Arsh) there is no limitation [to Him], rather it's a limitation of the throne and of that which is besides it [from the creation]; and Allah is above (fawq) that such that [He's] not in a place (Makan) and [has] no limit (Hadd), because He existed and there was no place (Makan), then He created place and He is as He was before creating place."

                - end of quote -
                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 07-02-20, 04:14 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  There is a problem in your methodology. The statement of the Hanabila is to be understood AS EXPLAINED BY THEMSELVES in their books and not as explained by anyone else! Please refer to explanation of the the Hanbalis.

                  As for the statement of Imam Ibn Mubarak (d. 181 AH), then it's a response to those who believe that Allah is in every place and the intention here is to clarify that Allah ta'ala is beyond his creation and NOT to establish a physical direction from the other side.

                  Anyways let's get back to what the Hanbalis have explicitly stated in their books (and the Ash'aris agree with them regarding this!):

                  First: It's the throne and the creation that is finite and limited and NOT Allah ta'ala.

                  Second: Place (Makan) [or time] and occupying space (Tahayyuz or Hayz) does not apply to Allah ta'ala.

                  Third: The creation can not comprehend the reality of Allah's essence, because He's beyond our imagination.

                  Now if someone is imagining that after the creation ends a 3-dimensional being or thing (i.e. body!) is physically facing it and above it and that this is God (we seek refuge from believing this!), then this is exactly what the Hanbalis [and Ash'aris] have regarded as Tajsim. And this would at the same make God imaginable and this is not befitting His essence, whereas the Hanbalis have stressed that Allah ta'ala is beyond imagination.
                  Don't let the "Salafis" or the "asharis"-website fool you and confuse you regarding the meaning of Jism (body) by mentioning different definitions without telling you that there is actually a common understanding, which everyone would call as Tajsim and that is to regard God as something with a length, breadth and depth.
                  The thing here is that our imagination is bound to time and place and we're not able to imagine something without these two concepts and since Allah ta'ala is beyond these concepts, the scholars have said that one should ponder about the creation of Allah and not about the essence of Allah, because that will lead inevitability to Tashbih and Tajsim!
                  AND: When the creation ends it's wrong to think that the concepts of time and place exist beyond them and start imagining the existance of Allah ta'ala with these concept, because this will inevitably lead to think about Allah in the manner of bodies!


                  Let's now refer to a book which has been accepted by the Sada al-Hanabila (as mentioned by the Imam Ibn Balban al-Hanbali (d. 1083 AH)) and that was specifically written for students of knowledge as a summary of the Sunni Hanbali 'Aqida (as mentioned by the author in the beginning of the book itself) and that is the book Nihayat al-Mubtadi`in fi Usul al-Din by Imam Ibn Hamdan (d. 695 AH). Imam al-Dhahabi (d. 748 AH) introduced him in his Siyar A'lam al-Nubala` by calling him "the Shaykh, the Imam, the 'Allama, the Qadhi (judge) and the Shaykh of the Hanabila".

                  Imam Ibn Hamdan said in Nihayat al-Mubtadi`in (see page 30-31):

                  Allah ta'ala is not a particle (Jawhar) or an accident ('Aradh) or a body (Jism) and temporality (Hawadith) does not indwell in Him and He does not indwell in what is emergent (Hadith) nor is He confined by it, rather He is beyond [and distinct from] (ba`in) his creation. Allah is upon the throne ('ala al-'Arsh) not with a limitation [that limits him], rather the limitation is that of the throne and of that which is besides it [from the creation]; and Allah is above (fawq) that without place (Makan) or limit (Hadd), because He existed and there was no place (Makan), then He created place and He is as He was before creating place.
                  He is not known through the senses (Hawas) and He can not be compared to humans and there is no entry for analogy [or comparing] (Qiyas) regarding His essence and attributes. He has not taken a wife or a child [for Himself], rather He's free of any needs. He's not similar to anything and nothing is similar to Him. Whosoever attributes similarity to Him with His creation has disbelieved. This is what [Imam] Ahmad stated; and the same goes regarding the one who regards him a body. Or if someone says "He's a body unlike [other] bodies" (Jism la kal Ajsam). This was mentioned by al-Qadhi [Abu Ya'la].
                  Imagination does not reach Him and comprehension does not grasp Him. He's not similar to the creation and no examples can be given in behalf of Him. He's not known by the sayings [of the people].
                  Whatever comes to the mind or [can] be conveived by the imagination, then He is different from that, the Lord of Majesty and Bounty.

                  Section

                  We're certain that Allah is in the heaven (fil Sama`) and that He's established above the throne (Istawa 'ala al-Arsh) without modality (bila kayf), and all that in the manner befitting him. We do not interpret that nor do we explain it or ascribe modality or imagine it or specify it or reject it or deny it, rather we relegate its knowledge to Allah ta'ala.
                  We're certain in denying attributing similarity (Tashbih) or attributing corporeality (Tajsim) or any flaw and that is the ruling [to be followed] for all verses (Ayat) concerning the [divine] attributes and the authentic and explicit narrations.
                  [Imam] Ahmad said : "We believe that Allah is above the throne ('ala al-'Arsh) as He intends without modality (bila kayf) or a description that a describer can reach or a limit (Hadd) that limits him."
                  So whoever says that He's - with His essence - in every place or in [some] place, then he's a disbeliever (Kafir), because this [belief] necessitates place (Makan) to be eternal and that [Allah] is occupying filthy places and other than them; High Exalted is Allah above that. And this does not negate Him being in the heaven (fil Sama`) and above the throne ('ala al-'Arsh) in the manner befitting him, as clarified. And the same statement applies regarding the narration of descent (Nuzul) and other than it which has an authentic chain and explicit in wording, so that it's impossible to understand it literally.

                  - end of quote -
                  I'm convinced with Ibn Taymiyyah's position that Allah is Above His Throne with a limit (Hadd) that is known to Him. This is the belief of Ibn al-Mubarak, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and the Ahul Hadeeth.

                  Anyone who believes that Allah is actually Above His Throne and not here on Earth, has effectively contradicted Tafwid, Hawadith, Tajsim and the KCA. It doesn't matter if you say "He's Above the Throne, but without a Jism or any modality". His mere being Above the Throne and not here constitutes "Where?" and contradicts Tafwid.

                  Allah is Fee Samaa/Fawq al Arshi Bi Dhatihi.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

                    I'm convinced with Ibn Taymiyyah's position that Allah is Above His Throne with a limit (Hadd) that is known to Him. This is the belief of Ibn al-Mubarak, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and the Ahul Hadeeth.

                    Anyone who believes that Allah is actually Above His Throne and not here on Earth, has effectively contradicted Tafwid, Hawadith, Tajsim and the KCA. It doesn't matter if you say "He's Above the Throne, but without a Jism or any modality". His mere being Above the Throne and not here constitutes "Where?" and contradicts Tafwid.

                    Allah is Fee Samaa/Fawq al Arshi Bi Dhatihi.
                    http://www.as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=119&lang=en
                    http://www.as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=93&lang=ar

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

                      I'm convinced with Ibn Taymiyyah's position that Allah is Above His Throne with a limit (Hadd) that is known to Him. This is the belief of Ibn al-Mubarak, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and the Ahul Hadeeth.

                      Anyone who believes that Allah is actually Above His Throne and not here on Earth, has effectively contradicted Tafwid, Hawadith, Tajsim and the KCA. It doesn't matter if you say "He's Above the Throne, but without a Jism or any modality". His mere being Above the Throne and not here constitutes "Where?" and contradicts Tafwid.

                      Allah is Fee Samaa/Fawq al Arshi Bi Dhatihi.
                      Whatever you say bro. I simply posted the explanation by the Hanabila themselves, who are explicit in supporting Tafwidh in meaning in their relied upon books.
                      You're free to throw all their statements away and instead rely upon what others understood or misunderstood from the Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH).
                      (By the way: Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya is not the official representative and spokesman of the Salaf al-salih. This fanatism towards his person should really stop! It's not like the rest of this Umma from the Ash'aris, Maturidis and Hanbalis were ALL ignorants and only one person understood everything.)

                      As for me: I believe in Allah ta'ala upon the meaning He intended and I do not add anything to the texts or take away anything from them, while admitting that the reality of Allah is beyond our imagination and comprehension and knowing that there is nothing like or similar to Him in any way.
                      This is more in line with following the Qur`an and Sunna than crossing ones boundaries and that of ones ability of comprehension as a created being and slave of Allah ta'ala.
                      That's it. Salam.
                      Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 07-02-20, 04:37 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Repost:

                        Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                        Hijrah - Time to Make Tracts | Bilal Philips



                        Hijrah - An Obligation | Bilal Philips:

                        http://islamiclectures.us/audio/BP/B...ion%20(IQ).mp3

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

                          I'm convinced with Ibn Taymiyyah's position that Allah is Above His Throne with a limit (Hadd) that is known to Him. This is the belief of Ibn al-Mubarak, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and the Ahul Hadeeth.

                          Anyone who believes that Allah is actually Above His Throne and not here on Earth, has effectively contradicted Tafwid, Hawadith, Tajsim and the KCA. It doesn't matter if you say "He's Above the Throne, but without a Jism or any modality". His mere being Above the Throne and not here constitutes "Where?" and contradicts Tafwid.

                          Allah is Fee Samaa/Fawq al Arshi Bi Dhatihi.
                          Just to reiterate: I never claimed that Allah was limited Himself. The limit is the separation between Him and His creation. However, His being Above the Throne and not here on Earth constitutes "Where?" and contradicts Asharism.

                          Asharis believe that "Where?" does not apply to Allah(swt) and He is not literally Above the Throne. Ask any modern Ashari "Where is Allah?" and figure out whether he's being literal or metaphorical when (if) he says He's Above His Throne. Most of them reply by saying Allah is without a place.

                          Comment




                          • From 22:30 of this lecture the speaker makes it clear that his contention is with affirming Allah's Dhat (Essence) Above the Throne. He accepts the statement "Allah is Above the Throne without modality", but rejects Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibnal Qayyim for affirming Allah's Being/Essence Above the Throne because they would entail "limits".

                            So the modern day Asharis do not believe that Allah is Above His Throne (except metaphorically).

                            http://www.as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=119&lang=en
                            http://www.as-salaf.com/article.php?aid=93&lang=ar

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

                              I'm convinced with Ibn Taymiyyah's position that Allah is Above His Throne with a limit (Hadd) that is known to Him. This is the belief of Ibn al-Mubarak, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and the Ahul Hadeeth.

                              Anyone who believes that Allah is actually Above His Throne and not here on Earth, has effectively contradicted Tafwid, Hawadith, Tajsim and the KCA. It doesn't matter if you say "He's Above the Throne, but without a Jism or any modality". His mere being Above the Throne and not here constitutes "Where?" and contradicts Tafwid.

                              Allah is Fee Samaa/Fawq al Arshi Bi Dhatihi.
                              Abu Sulayman I don't want you to be left with the impression that I was claiming Allah Himself is limited. That's what the Asharis charge the Salafis of doing when we proclaim our belief in Uluw. Look at the lecture I quoted above. The Ustadh's contention is with Ibn Taymiyyah/Ibnal Qayyims view of Allah literally being Above the Arsh (Bi Dhatihi).

                              Anyone who believes that Allah is actually Above the Throne and not here on Earth has committed Tajsim by Ashari standards. So if Ibn Qudama - or anyone else for that matter - believe that Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is literally Above the Throne, then they could never be Muffawid despite whatever rhetorical devices they use in their writings. This would be like squaring a circle according to Ashari theology.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

                                Abu Sulayman I don't want you to be left with the impression that I was claiming Allah Himself is limited. That's what the Asharis charge the Salafis of doing when we proclaim our belief in Uluw. Look at the lecture I quoted above. The Ustadh's contention is with Ibn Taymiyyah/Ibnal Qayyims view of Allah literally being Above the Arsh (Bi Dhatihi).

                                Anyone who believes that Allah is actually Above the Throne and not here on Earth has committed Tajsim by Ashari standards. So if Ibn Qudama - or anyone else for that matter - believe that Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is literally Above the Throne, then they could never be Muffawid despite whatever rhetorical devices they use in their writings. This would be like squaring a circle according to Ashari theology.
                                Forget my impression bro, because you’re not a real "Salafi" anyways and are repeating some of their statements without fully realizing what their scholars actually intend by these statements.

                                As for the classical Hanabila, then they should really not be be mixed up with the "Salafis" because their statements in their own relied upon books clearly differ with that of "Salafis" and that‘s why "Salafi“ editors only print their books when they add hundreds of footnotes in order to say "the author is wrong... Shaykh al-Islam said...".
                                The classical Hanabila were real scholars and when they said something then they didn’t just say it without understanding or without intending what they explicitly stated. Saying otherwise is like accusing them of not knowing what they were saying or accusing them of lying and Nifaq, we seek refuge from accusing them any of the two.
                                So your claim is simply not acceptable. When we find statements regarding beliefs clearly and obviously stated throughout the centuries in their books then it‘s not allowed to reinterpret their words or accuse them of being contradictory as "Salafis“ do.

                                As for the issue of literally believing that God is upon the throne: I ask you: Where did you get this word "literally" from? And what does that mean? Are you establishing a physical direction or what do you intend?
                                Why are you not simply abiding by the statement of Allah ta‘ala without going beyond that and admitting that the reality of Allah‘s essence is beyond our comprehension and imagination?

                                As for the issue of limit: If you‘re saying that God is literally on the throne, then this actually leads to affirming a limit from at least one side otherwise your affirmation is actually not literally no matter what you claim thereafter.

                                And: "Salafi" scholars do actually believe that God is limited and they believe more (i.e. worse) than that! You‘ve simply not come across their words.
                                The administrator of the English "ahlalhdeeth"-website Haitham Hamdan for example even explicitly claimed that God has a size (which is DISBELIEF according to the Hanabila!):

                                https://www.google.de/amp/s/wahhabis...as-a-size/amp/


                                And this [disbelief] is not surprising from them when one knows that the likes of Ibn 'Uthaymin thought that God is actually similar to some degree to the creation, which shows that he didn’t actually know Allah ta'ala, but still dared to accuse a major Hanbali scholar of polytheism!
                                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 07-02-20, 09:48 PM.

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