Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

[P3X-018]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

fact that different people have different numbers of bones and therefore different numbers of joints and (...) fact that the number of bones a person has changes over their lifetimes

Positive claim. Care to provide evidence?

[Sepulchrave]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

Positive claim. Care to provide evidence?

Google "HUMAN BODY" "BONES FUSE" for discussions. The complication is that many bones begin as cartilage in the uterus and only later become bones and bones fuse together- is a bone a bone when it's not yet made of bone? are two bones which have fused together one bone or two with a fixed joint? People are going to adopt the version that supports their views.

[P3X-018]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

Google "HUMAN BODY" "BONES FUSE" for discussions. The complication is that many bones begin as cartilage in the uterus and only later become bones and bones fuse together- is a bone a bone when it's not yet made of bone? are two bones which have fused together one bone or two with a fixed joint? People are going to adopt the version that supports their views.

Discussions?
This isn't my area of profession nor interest, so I don't know "where to look", maybe you could provide some sources? Can't seem to find "useful" stuff by searching like that.

[Sepulchrave]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

Discussions?
This isn't my area of profession nor interest, so I don't know "where to look", maybe you could provide some sources? Can't seem to find "useful" stuff by searching like that.

Well, as i don't know how much you know or whether if you find something you don't want to know if you'll dismiss it as "biased". any anatomy book would give info.
http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~pbrown3/skeleton.pdf has a good account of human bone development. The sacrum- the human tail-bone- is an example; you can decide it's one bone or anything up to five depending which suits you better.

[THHuxley]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

never return : that should be your DREAM!

dude I am here! I will give you the answer inshallah! I am not like YOU! until my last breath will fight.... :up:

Ah.... Ammarcool. You were not paying attention.

I said "never return with those references" you promised. I note they are still not in this latest post. They are:

1- A scientific reference (any reference) from prior to 1995 in which scientists claim that there are 340 joints in the human body.

2- The "scientific paper" from 1995 in which it is announced that 20 new joints have been discovered in the human ears.

3- Any scientific reference at all that describes these 20 joints in the human ears.

I'm not done reading the new contributions to the thread. Perhaps you've included them below.

We'll see, wont we?

[THHuxley]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

I never claimed the human body had 360 joints, nor am I creating a 'diversion'.

I never said you made that claim. You'll note I specifically held Ammarcool responsible for that claim, not you.

As for whether or not your discussion on scientific disagreement was a diversion from the subject of the thread, we disagree. No big deal.

[THHuxley]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

Types of joints found in the human body: junction of two bones that permits movement.
Ribs and vertebrae = semi-mobile joints: ribs: bones of the thoracic cage. Vertebra: each of the bones of the spinal column. Semi-mobile joints: very restricted flexibility.
Vertebrae = cartilaginous joints: vertebra: each of the bones of the spinal column. Cartilaginous joints: flexibility due to cartilage, an elastic tissue.
Skull = immovable joints: skull: bony case of the brain. Fixed joints: joints that do not allow flexibility.
Elbow = hinged joint: elbow: joint connecting the forearm to the upper arm. Hinged joint: flexible in only one direction.
Hip = ball and socket joint: hip: part on the side of the body, between the waist and the top of the thigh.
Ball and socket joint: flexibility due to a domed bone that turns in a cavity of the same shape.

Great. This advances your argument... how exactly?

[THHuxley]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

according to scientific researches they have mentioned following details:

• Humans and giraffes have the same number of bones in their neck. Giraffe neck bones are just bigger.

Too bad there are no hadith that tell us the number of joints in a giraffe's body.

• You have over 230 moveable and semi-moveable joints in your body.

So, according to this source, you are about 130 joints shy of Muhammad's number.

• You have 27 bones in your hand.
• You have 14 bones in your face.
• The smallest bone in your body is the stirrup bone in the ear, which measures 1/10 of an inch.
• The longest bone in your body is the femur (thigh bone), which is about 1/4 of your height.

All of which are true, but none of which help your argument.

What about the counting of following joints in the human body?

cartilaginous joints, Immovable joints, Fixed joints, Hinged joints, ball and socket joints

So... go ahead. We are still waiting. Provide us with the references in which they have been counted. We have been waiting for at least a couple days by now for you to do so.

first of all count that...finally you can decide what it is..

Oh... so you're admitting that you have no idea at all? That you have never counted them yourself, so you want me to count them for you?

And (most importantly) that you still do not have a single reference that actually supports any of the claims made in your initial post?

I guess my prediction was spot on!!!!

[ammarcool]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

Too bad there are no hadith that tell us the number of joints in a giraffe's body.


So, according to this source, you are about 130 joints shy of Muhammad's number.


All of which are true, but none of which help your argument.


Well, the cartilaginous joints, hinged joints and ball and socket joints are already counted in the “more than 130” joints cited above.

"Immovable" and "fixed" joints are the same thing. So they are the only ones not included in the “more than 130.”

So... go ahead. We are still waiting. Provide us with the references in which they have been counted. We have been waiting for at least a couple days by now for you to do so.


Oh... so you're admitting that you have no idea at all? That you have never counted them yourself, so you want me to count them for you?

And (most importantly) that you still do not have a single reference that actually supports any of the claims made in your initial post?

I guess my prediction was spot on!!!!

Muhammad is not your someone, mind your words!

did I mentioned that
Humans and giraffes have the same number of bones in their neck. Giraffe neck bones are just bigger. from a hadees?

go through the source first regarding the point that I have mentioned

You have 27 bones in your hand.
You have 14 bones in your face.
The smallest bone in your body is the stirrup bone in the ear, which measures 1/10 of an inch.

http://www.drstandley.com/bodysystems_skeletal.shtml

[THHuxley]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

Positive claim. Care to provide evidence?

Sure.

1- The number of bones change between infancy and adulthood.

The number of bones in an adult skeleton and an infant skeleton differ substantially. An infant skeleton is made up of some 300 bones while an average adult skeleton will have 206 bones. This means that nearly one-third of the bones in our human body will bond together during the period between infancy and adulthood.

source: http://www.3dscience.com/Resources/3d_Skeleton.php

2- Different adults have different numbers of bones:

Example one: Extra ribs.

Cervical rib: A supernumerary (extra) rib which arises from the seventh cervical vertebra. It is located above the normal first rib. A cervical rib is present in only about 1 in 200 (0.5%) of people. It may cause nerve and artery problems.

There are normally 12 pairs of ribs in all. Each pair of ribs is attached to the building blocks of the spine (the vertebrae) in the back. The 12 normal pairs of ribs consist of:

• True ribs: The first seven ribs attach to the sternum (the breast bone) in the front and are known as true (or sternal) ribs.
• False ribs: The lower five ribs do not directly connect to the sternum and are known as false ribs.

The presence of a cervical rib means the individual has 13 ribs: 1 cervical rib + 7 true ribs + 5 false ribs = 13 ribs.

Source: http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...rticlekey=2684

Example 2: Extra bones in the skull.

Wormian bones
(Ole Worm, 1588 - 1654, Danish anatomist), intrasutural bones seen on skull radiographs (Fig.1) (Fig.2), commonly associated with the lambdoid suture and occurring frequently in infancy. They are generally only considered pathologically significant when greater than 6 x 4 mm in size, greater than ten in number and arranged in a mosaic pattern. There are numerous pathological associations with these small bones but the commonest include osteogenesis imperfecta, cleidocranial dysplasia, pyknodysostosis, hypophosphatasia, hypothyroidism and acro-osteolysis. It is important to emphasize, however, that the majority of cases are simply normal variants.

Source: http://www.medcyclopaedia.com/librar...ian_bones.aspx

Example 3: Extra bones in the foot.

http://www.footphysicians.com/what-i...xtra-bones.htm

Example 4: Extra vertebrae.

A sixth lumbar vertebra

One of the reasons for the confusion is that some people, approximately 10% of adults, have a congenital anomaly in their lower back. One of the most common anomalies is the presence of a sixth lumbar vertebra. Having one extra lumbar vertebra provides no advantage or disadvantage to the individual and is rarely a cause of back problems, but it can create some confusion. For example:

• Radiologists commonly count down from the last rib when numbering the lumbar vertebral bodies.
• Surgeons on the other hand, count up from the sacrum when numbering the lumbar vertebrae.

Source: http://www.spine-health.com/topics/a...nfusion04.html

[ammarcool]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

Well, the cartilaginous joints, .
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give me references for above?

[THHuxley]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

Muhammad is not your someone, mind your words!

did I mentioned that
Humans and giraffes have the same number of bones in their neck. Giraffe neck bones are just bigger. from a hadees?

No. But then why did you bother to include this otherwise irrelevant factoid in your post?

I suspect that it is because you are trying to pretend you know what you're talking about. So you are including anything you can, but only to set up a smoke screen for your ignorance.

go through the source first regarding the point that I have mentioned

You have 27 bones in your hand.
You have 14 bones in your face.
The smallest bone in your body is the stirrup bone in the ear, which measures 1/10 of an inch.

http://www.drstandley.com/bodysystems_skeletal.shtml

All of this is irrelevent to your claims.

Again, you must either provide actual references for your claims, or admit that you do not have them. The three claims we are looking for you to support are:

1- A scientific reference (any reference) from prior to 1995 in which scientists claim that there are 340 joints in the human body.

2- The "scientific paper" from 1995 in which it is announced that 20 new joints have been discovered in the human ears.

3- Any scientific reference at all that describes these 20 joints in the human ears.

[THHuxley]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

give me references for above?

You already provided them.

Read your own posts. But actually take the time to try and understand them this time.

[ammarcool]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

No. But then why did you bother to include this otherwise irrelevant factoid in your post?

I suspect that it is because you are trying to pretend you know what you're talking about. So you are including anything you can, but only to set up a smoke screen for your ignorance.


All of this is irrelevent to your claims.

Again, you must either provide actual references for your claims, or admit that you do not have them. The three claims we are looking for you to support are:

1- A scientific reference (any reference) from prior to 1995 in which scientists claim that there are 340 joints in the human body.

2- The "scientific paper" from 1995 in which it is announced that 20 new joints have been discovered in the human ears.

3- Any scientific reference at all that describes these 20 joints in the human ears.

the 3 claims that you are asking from me to provide is not yours:

that was raised by some one else in the source site (http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/R...360joints.htm), for your good time your prediction was spot on because of that online article:

1- A scientific reference (any reference) from prior to 1995 in which scientists claim that there are 340 joints in the human body.

2- The "scientific paper" from 1995 in which it is announced that 20 new joints have been discovered in the human ears.

3- Any scientific reference at all that describes these 20 joints in the human ears.

then why are you asking the same question from me?

the source site provide you the answer for it as you are trying to prove it that there are no 360 joints!

WE are stable on the hadess which was narrated by beloved Prophet (PBUH) as JOINTS in the human body is 360. IF its not then that is one of the problem with the modern science!

Eventhough I am reasearching on the subject. I will come back to the subjected post again near future inshallah with online reference or Hardcopy/Manual references!

[Sepulchrave]

Re: Islam's claim about the 360 joints in the human body was proven to be true!

Have you actually read your source, ammacool [actually http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/R.../360joints.htm ]?[/url] It says:
"We searched in a medical school library, with the aid of the librarian on duty using a computer in attempting to find references, and could not find a source that mentioned the number of joints in the human body.


No evidence that prior to 1995 the medical literature taught that there are 340 joints in the human body.
No evidence that in 1995 a "scientific institute" proved that the internal ear consists of 10 joints.
No evidence that current medical literature teaches that the human body consists of 360 joints. "

Either you agree with this, in which case you agree that there is no scientific "miracle" regarding the number of joints in the human body and you wasted your time posting the claim, or you believe that there are 360 joints in the human body because the quran says so and you need no evidence for it. If- as seems to be the case- you believe that where there is a discrepancy between the quran and apparent reality the fault is in reality, you were wasting your time posting what you would regard as irrelevant evidence.