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Reverts - A discussion

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    #61
    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Originally posted by muzzybee View Post
    This statement realy got me thinking.Specially being drawn to extremes in deen.

    [MENTION=99637]Gingerbeardman[/MENTION] you are a revert and very active in dawah.
    How does one handle this situation.
    Jazakallahu khairan for the complement, but for myself I consider myself middlingly committed to the field of Dawah, there are plenty of people, non-Sheikhs, who I look upto and see doing a much better job than myself who I aspire to match one day.

    On your questions...
    For example is a forum good idea for a revert
    Where do they go to learn the deen.
    Reverts face the same problems as everyone else in learning the deen, just more pronounced because at first we lack enough knowledge of the community to be able to navigate, tell the good from the bad. There are many different interpretations of even how to tell this good from bad, we lack any grounding in the beginning.

    So the best place to learn the deen is at the feet of a scholar, in a traditional manner, if not a scholar, a student of knowledge, if not then at least a person with a good basic grounding in the deen, according to the authentic aqeedah, the correct manhaj, who you can trust to impart information, be open to listening to others points of view and not just preaching, and being of upstanding trustworthy character.

    Are forums good? well no, not according to the above criteria, however they are often the least bad option for many reverts given the lack of chances to learn otherwise and reverts do need to learn, learn quickly and act upon it whilst they still have that initial zeal for the deen, that post shahadah after-glow of emaan.

    Forums such as ummah forum at least relatively open, in allowing people to put questions, or just their point of view across and allows new Muslims to see their are many different view points, but can at times come across as overwhelming and confusing.

    What can born muslims learn from reverts and vice versa.
    Reverts need culturing in the deen, to soak up the culture of the deen, not just the knowledge. From regular Muslims, we can pick up that generic culture, which goes across all sections of the Muslim community, more or less, whilst at the same time I would hope not assimilating totally into any one part of it.

    I found living in areas with a wider range of different Muslim cultures to be most beneficial in looking at different peoples and comparing them. Seeing some had one element of the sunnah in their culture, whilst perhaps falling short or even missing another part.

    Living in an area where only one section of the Muslim community is present can cause all sorts of problems for reverts and a lack of balance between culture and deen, met my fair share of reverts who have confused indo-pak culture for traditionalism, or arab culture for the salafi manhaj.

    For non-reverts, I hope from us you can pick up a curious, questioning nature which brought many of us to the deen in the first place, not to accept things just because you are told it is so in terms of your own culture or even aspects of the deen which are taught by rote and are often wrong.



    What are the risks for reverts.
    Groupism, or Sheikh worship is a big problem for many reverts. Strange given we question, question, question in our former life before coming to the deen many reverts, myself included at the beginning of my life in Islam fall into hizbiyya, or blind following of a Sheikh. It could be the certainty which is presented is appealing to someone in such a flux of emotions and ideas. The deen offers many different flavours and it can be very confusing at first.

    Assimilation into one section of the Muslim community culturally is another problem I've already talked about above.

    Isolation is however one of the biggest dangers a new revert will face. Being cut off from friends and often even family, whilst not being able to build up a strong connection to the Muslim community either because of the revert not having the personal skills, inclination to reach out, or else the hand of friendship / brotherhood just not being held out by the existing Muslim community around them.

    The lone sheep is truly targeted by the wolves and lone reverts often fall prey to shaitan, fall into sins, innovations, even kufr, as well as being targetting by the more cult-like elements of the Muslim community.

    Another big risk, and one that many reverts fall into is thinking they know best, that they somehow come into the deen clean of culture, and so able to differentiate haqq from batil from day one, a problem not helped by so many Muslims repeating this lie to them at every opportunity so that you start to think you really are truly special. So reverts putting themselves on a pedestal, or being put on by others.

    These reverts will often come up with modernist, or just plain weird interpretations of the deen, and because they think they know best will tell anyone and everyone about them but really they're just mixing their culture with Islam, same as anyone else.


    How to approach reverts for marriage.
    Errhh ok, until they are more grounded in the deen YOU DON'T.

    Reverts really shouldn't be getting married early on unless there is a pressing need, it's best to wait a year or two at least and reverts getting 'hit on' is a big problem we face from the pre-existing Muslims, yes even brothers get this problem not just sisters.

    Otherwise, once they've got that grounding in the deen, it's the same as everyone else really. If a sister you ask about her, find out her wali's details and contact through the wali.
    If a revert brother a sister is interested in, get your wali to speak to him.

    Whatever you do, don't go around the normal rules, which many reverts may not be familiar with, or may be a bit blase about following, these rules around courtship are there for everyone's protection and reverts need it more than most.
    Last edited by Gingerbeardman; 20-05-17, 02:40 AM.
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      #62
      Re: Reverts - A discussion

      Originally posted by itsgiise View Post
      In the town i grew up they used to match reverts with arabs or other ethnicities. But there has come a lot of problems and divorces from being coming from two different cultures.
      Now a days the imam actually makes a point of saying people reverts should try to marry other reverts. In my country it would be danish marrying other danes. Which i agree with.
      I heard in a study of intercultural marriages that the marriages fail 99%+ of the time unless the woman moves to the countryear of the man. I am sure there is anecdotes that contradict that, this was a study inside Europe

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        #63
        Re: Reverts - A discussion

        Islam has become a trend.. People converting to Islam is not what it was like 20yrs ago.

        Comment


          #64
          Re: Reverts - A discussion

          Originally posted by Abu Kamel View Post
          :salams

          There is something truly wrong with this thread. Why do Muslims feel compelled to judge and then manipulate reverts?

          Why aren't you compelled to judge and then deal with the hypocrites and apostates who are destroying Islam and misguiding Muslims?

          It seems the attention is misdirected.
          :wswrwb:

          The two are not mutually exclusive, I've met many reverts who promote ridda in one form of another and perhaps people just don't want to see reverts fall into the same traps everyone else has already.
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            #65
            Re: Reverts - A discussion

            Originally posted by zi-zizou View Post
            :wswrwb:

            One of the biggest risks for females (more so than men) is that they get desperate to find attachment that they end up marrying a dud and realise a bit too late.
            The same problem for male reverts. There is a reason why divorce is such a big problem for reverts, it's usually because they marry someone who is just not suitable in terms of deen and character or are pushed into marriage by people who either don't know better, or don't have their best interests at heart.

            I've stopped mentioning female shahadah's in some brother's company, just to avoid the instantaneous inquiries about marriage, they tend to be otherwise become quite offended by my rather blunt replies as to why they are being so dumb in even think this way.
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              #66
              Re: Reverts - A discussion

              Originally posted by Spicen View Post
              That's the point.

              I think religious muslim men of all sects- whether salafi or barelwi- tend not to have a very positive view of women. I know some will disagree with this but that's just my opinion.

              But yes when it comes to "fitnah caused by women" some men do go completely overboard. I mean when you have men saying that emojis cause them fitnah and female users using coloured fonts also causes fitnah. My jaw dropped like 2 storeys(not to be taken literally) seeing that. Nuts.
              People when they are new to practicing tend to concentrate on the more visual, physical aspects of the deen no matter which group they are from. Sometimes they never move past that.

              btw. I do agree with the issue of using certain emojis between genders. Men and women when discussing the deen should avoid emotional language, obviously emojis when used excessively can fall into this.
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                #67
                Re: Reverts - A discussion

                Originally posted by Umm Fatimah View Post
                I would also add that I disagree about reverts having more cultural baggage. Maybe it is just my community where we don't have much of a my-islam-is-more-authentic-than-yours type of divide between masaajid etc, but reverts are generally fairly middle class, educated and mentally stable. They are also from the same geographical area, so I suppose I don't have much to compare it with.
                Maybe you just have a good bunch where you are but...

                In my experience I tend to find middle class reverts to be fall most into this problem, of having cultural baggage. Not all, but certainly more often than not it's an issue for them.

                I also find many of them somewhat stuck-up, looking down on reverts who don't come from an overprivileged background, as well as many elements of the culture of existing sections of the Muslim community, even aspects of Islam when it doesn't fit into their pre-existing ideas which they often bring with them into Islam.

                I am not saying people who come from an underprivileged background don't have these problems, just I don't see it as much. I certainly never heard a group of them whining for over an hour about how they are always expected to eat curry or kebabs at Muslim events and could we just have roast beef dinner and why won't 'these people' integrate more into the British culture.

                There are self-help groups within reverts dominated by these sort of cultural snobs I keep away from on health grounds, to keep my blood from boiling after having dealt with them too often in the past.
                Last edited by Gingerbeardman; 20-05-17, 03:29 AM.
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                  #68
                  Re: Reverts - A discussion

                  Originally posted by itsgiise View Post
                  In the town i grew up they used to match reverts with arabs or other ethnicities. But there has come a lot of problems and divorces from being coming from two different cultures.
                  Now a days the imam actually makes a point of saying people reverts should try to marry other reverts. In my country it would be danish marrying other danes. Which i agree with.
                  It has it's plus and minus points. Marrying another revert can be great as it means you don't have that culture clash straight off which is always difficult in interracial marriages, made even more difficult when one party is new to Islam.

                  However I can never stress enough how much a revert can learn from a good Muslim spouse and wider family, the little things you just cannot pick up in books, or 100 study circles.

                  Yes there is more risk, especially when reverts are paired up with totally inappropriate matches by ignorant, cultural imams, but in general I tend to think the risk is worth it if they are careful and have appropriate safeguards in place.
                  Last edited by Gingerbeardman; 20-05-17, 03:35 AM.
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                    #69
                    Re: Reverts - A discussion

                    Originally posted by AbuSammy View Post
                    I heard in a study of intercultural marriages that the marriages fail 99%+ of the time unless the woman moves to the countryear of the man. I am sure there is anecdotes that contradict that, this was a study inside Europe
                    You want to produce your scientific study you heard of with this devastating and I am sure accurate statistic?
                    Because my anecdotal personal experience built up over 15 years of Islam and looking after reverts says that is male cow poo.
                    Last edited by Gingerbeardman; 20-05-17, 03:39 AM.
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                      #70
                      Re: Reverts - A discussion

                      Originally posted by muzzybee View Post
                      [MENTION=140612]Rifqah[/MENTION] , [MENTION=110507]aynina[/MENTION] how did you figure how to learn the different aspects of deen.
                      I presume internet was a major part of your study.
                      I do a variety of online searching, buying a book or two (I've actually bought quite a few now) and asking the imam at the masjid. There's a sister that organises the other sisters at the masjid and I have her number if I need information too.

                      I ask here and I ask Abu Musa'ab too.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Re: Reverts - A discussion

                        Originally posted by .khayriyyah. View Post
                        Well in my case, I did not get involved with them because I was "drawn" to them. I was scared of them in the beginning. They would quote text from the Quran and Sunnah to justify their views so that is what caused me to end up with that kind of crowd. They just happened to be the only ones giving dawah on the platforms I used.
                        Any regrets ending up with that kind of crowd? :jkk: for sharing
                        ┳┻|
                        ┻┳|•.•) Hello, Assalamu Alaikum! Check out this topic! #makethechanges
                        ┳┻|⊂ノ
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                        :banbear:http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...adan-Authentic:hidban:

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                          #72
                          Re: Reverts - A discussion

                          Originally posted by Spicen View Post
                          That's the point.

                          I think religious muslim men of all sects- whether salafi or barelwi- tend not to have a very positive view of women. I know some will disagree with this but that's just my opinion.

                          But yes when it comes to "fitnah caused by women" some men do go completely overboard. I mean when you have men saying that emojis cause them fitnah and female users using coloured fonts also causes fitnah. My jaw dropped like 2 storeys(not to be taken literally) seeing that. Nuts.
                          :shock: yea nuts.
                          ┳┻|
                          ┻┳|•.•) Hello, Assalamu Alaikum! Check out this topic! #makethechanges
                          ┳┻|⊂ノ
                          ┻┳|
                          :banbear:http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...adan-Authentic:hidban:

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Re: Reverts - A discussion

                            Salam wa alaykom,
                            I'm a revert myself. Been in for two years. And yeah, I am still somewhat drawn to the super-salafi sects. But more than that, besides any polemic views on 'Aqeedah or sectarianism or anything like that, there's certain responsibilities that you're not ready for. It was right before my 19th birthday when I reverted. I wasn't ready to pray 5 times a day. I wasn't ready for the entire culture-shock that came with everything.
                            I don't know what the statement "where transgressions are covered up for the benefit of the wider group" really means, could someone please clarify that?
                            Also, how do I get a private message out to the moderators? And how do I join a new Muslims' group on this site??? Sorry never really ever posted to a forum before lol

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Re: Reverts - A discussion

                              Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
                              You want to produce your scientific study you heard of with this devastating and I am sure accurate statistic?
                              Because my anecdotal personal experience built up over 15 years of Islam and looking after reverts says that is male cow poo.
                              This quote was very much in a non-Muslim context, so should be taken with a grain of salt. I believe the source for it was something my non Muslim (German) ex was told in an Erasmus European Union exchange program orientation. Certainly as a non-Muslim I did find there to be some truth in this, which is why I mentioned it here. Communication is very difficult even between a married couple from the same culture, and different cultures exacerbates this, I say this as a veteran of two inter cultural long term relationships.

                              In my own experience as a Muslim living with my wife in Egypt, Islam has the potential to overcome a lot of these cultural boundaries. I guess I am passionate enough about Islam that I don't really need to have anything else in common with someone in order to have a good bond with them.

                              People are very hesitant though in these very old societies to marry outside even of their own tribes or families, and I do believe there is wisdom behind this, but at this point I think the harm outweighs the benefit.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Re: Reverts - A discussion

                                Originally posted by muzzybee View Post
                                Who you talk to or trust their word ,dont you think is the one that could lead to possibly siding or taking an extreme view.
                                For example your advisor happens to be a shia lets say and then you tend to begin probably hating sunnis.
                                But of course I understand you got to talk to someone and its probably always a close friend or colleague etc.
                                This is an extreme example but sometimes it can be confusing right to know where to go for knowledge.

                                How do you overcome a situation like this.

                                We pray Allah swt keeps us all in the straight path ameen.

                                Forgive me if it is too personal question..A generalistic answer probably is best
                                Yes I agree, you have no idea of the views people have as you get to know them at the masjid, as you don't know what you don't know. You don't know Islam and you don't know who you're being friendly with either.

                                I think this is what influenced the sister I mentioned initially. She got into a group of sisters whose were intolerant and would warn her against speaking to anyone almost. She attended meetings with them and wouldn't really say what about but I had a bad feeling the more I heard her language change from kindness and tolerance to judgemental and harsh.

                                How do I overcome learning incorrectly? Fortunately I have some good people who have made themselves available to me to ask anything I need Alhamdulillah and also it's not quite so easy to integrate even when you go to classes as people leave the class early, busy lives, picking up children or a little wary of a newcomer (for similar reasons probably). There's a certain safety in that too because making friends is often a slow process which gives you time to learn about the various pitfalls in deen.

                                It can be isolating, especially if your family are not Muslim but places like this are really helpful too as if people read your posts that sound a little 'off' I usually get a nudge through a rep or two, letting me know and then an explanation of what is correct. Really helpful and I do really appreciate those who do this.

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