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What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

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  • #16
    Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

    Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    Jannah isn't cheap, it has to be earned, if you don't deserve it, you don't get it.

    It has been made blatantly clear that we have been created, will be tested in Dunya,

    How about you read the Qur'an for a change?

    Asking questions to which the answers are explicitly given in the Qur'an, shows clear ignorance.

    Allah عز و جل is always Just,

    سبحان الله
    I've read the entire quran WITH translation at least once a majority of the later surahs multiple times.

    Originally posted by Abu Zaheer View Post
    Quran is clear, its understanding by individuals may not be.
    But then how is the message clear if it's tough to understand correctly?
    Last edited by thedeen33; 21-07-16, 03:18 AM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

      Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
      Op says the message aint clear,

      That's Kufr territory,

      Read op,

      A Muslim can't say the Qur'an and the Sunnah aint clear
      The biggest thing for me I think is, is that even with the Quran and sunnah, and the laws of Islam, the way it explains life, purpose, etc... and all the logical sense it makes.... while I still really feel like it is the truth and it just has to be, how can I say for 100% certain it is....??? Like i might feel like it is, but do we really know that God exists and Islam is the truth, no matter how much we may feel it is???

      But then again, I guess that's why it's called belief and faith, but still, why wouldn't have God made it more clear in the sense of his proof of existence?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

        Originally posted by thedeen33 View Post
        The biggest thing for me I think is, is that even with the Quran and sunnah, and the laws of Islam, the way it explains life, purpose, etc... and all the logical sense it makes.... while I still really feel like it is the truth and it just has to be, how can I say for 100% certain it is....??? Like i might feel like it is, but do we really know that God exists and Islam is the truth, no matter how much we may feel it is???

        But then again, I guess that's why it's called belief and faith, but still, why wouldn't have God made it more clear in the sense of his proof of existence?
        NO.

        Belief in Allah is NOT based on feelings.

        You say "how do we really know that God exists and Islam is the truth...?"

        How do I really know YOU exist and what you say about yourself is the truth?

        I can't see you, I can't hear you, I can't touch you, I don't what you look like. Why should I trust what you say?
        Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
        " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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        • #19
          Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

          Originally posted by thedeen33 View Post



          But then how is the message clear if it's tough to understand correctly?
          You have to take the means (there is many) and strive in His cause to get to correct understanding.

          Its like Wahi (revelation) that was sent to our Prophet :saw:

          New revelation has stopped but understanding of the revealed has not. Allah will still bestow people with that knowledge.

          But Allah does also say go to people, so there is knowledge available through this route as well

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

            Yakeen (certainty) in faith is quiet a high rank in personal attainment in Islam.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

              There are a bunch of points to make, I'll break the post up somewhat and take out the ellipsis:
              Originally posted by thedeen33 View Post
              How do I 100% know for sure that Islam is the truth?
              What proof do you want/How do you ascertain the truth?
              If I write a statement here, how do you know if it's true or not?

              How can I be sure that the Islamic worldview - of what Islam says about this world and the afterlife - is true?
              Don't you see the obvious in your own question? How do you know that what Islam says about the world is true? - You look at the world. If I say "the sky is blue sometimes", how do you know this is true?
              It ought to make sense to everyone that you verify a worldview by comparing it to the world(or rather reality). How else do you verify it?
              Things regarding afterlife, angels, jinn etc. which we can't verify with our faculties without a miracle, we would believe if the source telling us these things exist/are such is verified through other events and means to be 100% reliable and omniscient. Because an omniscient thing by definition knows for sure what is true about everything, and take for instance a layman and a psychologist - whom would you go to for knowledge about psychology, whom would you believe first regarding claims about psychology?
              How about a psychologist vs. an omniscient being - whom would you believe of those two if they differed?
              So if you can verify that Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) is this person who speaks through the Qur'an, and He is the One He says He is, then what is so strange and irrational about taking His word for anything? What else do you need at that point?

              Can I do better do then just "have faith/iman"?
              Why would it be insufficient to begin with?

              I do feel good after devotional acts of worship but it seems like I need more and these feelings are rather subjective.
              Obviously.

              Is there more than just arguments about the Qur’an (hasn't changed in 1400 years, written in an Arabic that cannot be replicated, scientific argument interpreted to be true)? I am tired of rational arguments as rationality can only come so far, is so malleable, and will not give you a deep sense of spiritual certainty - only logical implications from certain arguments.
              Still the question is what argument do you want? What will you accept? What would satisfy you?
              If you jump, do you believe you'll land?
              If you'll say "Well I found science to help me by showing the theory of gravity to be true so I trust it to continue" - suppose you just flew away instead of landing. Did that break science, do you disbelieve all of science now? Or do you go to look for a scientific explanation? Why does anyone continue to trust science if there are unanswered questions still? Why do they say "we'll wait for it"? And why is that enough for them but us waiting to find an explanation to some question in Islam for instance is not enough for them?
              What you are convinced of to be true to reality, you don't just discard it when something unexpected happened, you know there is an answer to it in that "sphere", so you go to it to find an answer. It's not "rationalization".
              This is iman, and it is not baseless nor insufficient.
              I believe Islam because of the same reason I believe science to work; it never fails, and when it appears to fail - you wait, investigate, wait some more if you have to, and you will get a definite answer, it exists.

              How do I make sure that I am not rationalizing to myself that Islam is the true religion, but rather come to a point where I know it is? Because if you want something to be true - then you will rationalize to yourself until you convince yourself that it is true. If you are Christian, then you will rationalize the world through a Christian lens and believe your worldview is the ultimate truth and that Jesus will save you. Likewise in the case of Islam, or any other belief system. I want to be a good Muslim but I need a deeper level of conviction in order to survive in this world.
              So you're asking how you can trust something;
              You literally take all of the statements made by that something, and you compare them to reality. If they match, then the statements are true. And past a certain point, if all statements have been true so far, you yourself conclude that the source is trustworthy. And if a trustworthy source was to say something that seems "off", you don't conclude immediately that it is a lie or false, you keep the premise that it is trustworthy, but you investigate and/or wait it out etc., because for it to become untrustworthy has the same mechanics and takes the same time to break the trust. And I can't say you will be convinced by the same things I will, because I don't know what you think.
              And things which you don't have the means to verify yet, you don't say "I will treat this as false because I haven't seen it, therefore this source is untrustworthy for now", that would be to make a judgement based on what you don't know rather than what you do know. The only time you can invoke this is if there is absolutely no statement you can verify at all.

              I've already covered how you compare religions, and even more importantly; how you come to conclusions on your own before embarking into comparison or consideration of religions, here.
              Since everyone got branched into a certain way of thinking throughout their life(atheists very much included, feminists, communists - everyone(andI know atheists and feminists & communists are not mutually exclusive, but they're all adding a push in the final product of "reasoning" so they're all relevant),
              :start:
              Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:
              No babe is born but upon Fitra. It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist. A person said: Allah's Messenger, what is your opinion if they were to die before that (before reaching the age of adolescence when they can distinguish between right and wrong)? He said: It is Allah alone Who knows what they would be doing.

              (The fact that I'm quoting ahadith to argue reality ought to show you why I believe Islam is true, I might add more ahadith and ayaat, but we might come to that later, first you need to say what you regard to be "proof")
              We don't come to the same conclusions because based on what premises we set up in our mind, we make conclusions off of that.
              Which is why we have discussions with eachother, and a lot of debates on the request of people of other religions.
              There is a common denominator for everyone which we there try to evoke to correct eachother, because everyone of a differing belief thinks that the others are all wrong - otherwise they wouldn't believe what they believe, they'd believe something else. Even those who say "All beliefs are right", there are others who say "My belief is the only right one", then the first person would have to accept that the second one's statement is true - which means his own is not true, you see?
              Person A made a statement about all beliefs, person B made a statement about his belief - to verify A in this case you have to look at B to get an answer. Then you know if it is true, it doesn't get any easier than that.
              Last edited by Thunderstorm; 21-07-16, 12:21 PM.
              Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

                Originally posted by thedeen33 View Post
                The biggest thing for me I think is, is that even with the Quran and sunnah, and the laws of Islam, the way it explains life, purpose, etc... and all the logical sense it makes.... while I still really feel like it is the truth and it just has to be, how can I say for 100% certain it is....??? Like i might feel like it is, but do we really know that God exists and Islam is the truth, no matter how much we may feel it is???

                But then again, I guess that's why it's called belief and faith, but still, why wouldn't have God made it more clear in the sense of his proof of existence?
                Do we really know that God exists and Islam is the truth?: Yes.
                It seems like you've got the "popular atheistic" definition of belief and of faith - which is incorrect when it comes to what we mean when we say "iman", as I explained in my previous post.
                He has made it very clear that He is real, again, go to that link.

                The sceptic's challenge is a bottomless pit, you need to come to terms with yourself about how to tell what is definitely true. Otherwise you can ask "How do I know this is 100% true?" for everything.
                Because if you can't trust what makes sense, how do you live your life? If you're about to cross a road and you see a car approaching at 120 mph, do you say to yourself, "Well, I don't really know if it is a car and if it's coming over here and if it's really going at 120 mph... might as well cross" - you trust what you conclude based on what you've seen.
                Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

                  :salams

                  The message of Islam is pretty simple:

                  Worship Allah alone. I.e. worship none but Him. And to abstain from Shirk (worshipping anything or anybody besides Allah) Believe He is One.
                  La ilaha illallahu, wahdahu la sharika lahu, lahul-mulku wa lahul-hamdu, wa Huwa 'ala kulli sha'in Qadir
                  (there is no true god except Allah. He is One and He has no partner with Him; His is the sovereignty and His is the praise, and He is Omnipotent),'
                  Do not say about Allah but Truth.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

                    Originally posted by thedeen33 View Post
                    Why is it so difficult for people to believe in?

                    Why is it so hard for people to believe in God, if he really exists? And then they get punished for not believing.......?????

                    Because many people don't believe, and EVEN I AS A MUSLIM WHO HAS READ THE QURAN AND KNOWS A GOOD DEAL STILL FIND MYSELF DOUBTING AT TIMES.........


                    Like that's the illogical part to me.... it shouldn't be so hard.... shouldn't the message be clearer???? Millions across the world don't even receive a proper message............
                    Its hard to believe because we tend to believe only things which we can feel with our five senses. When you light a candle in a dark room , we can see till a particular distance , beyond that its still dark , that does not mean that nothing is there , it means , we cannot see.

                    If someone does not receive message Allah swt will not punish them.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

                      Originally posted by Abu Zaheer View Post
                      The Quran says ask someone if and when you don't know. Its clear for one person, and many others should go to whom it is clear


                      I think OP is missing that traditional link in advancing himself. I think he is missing an important cog - Sufism and its practices

                      Traditionally this has advanced Muslims like himself into Momins.
                      Sufism and it's practices arnt cogs they are Dirty Deviant ways,
                      http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                      "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

                        Originally posted by thedeen33 View Post
                        The biggest thing for me I think is, is that even with the Quran and sunnah, and the laws of Islam, the way it explains life, purpose, etc... and all the logical sense it makes.... while I still really feel like it is the truth and it just has to be, how can I say for 100% certain it is....??? Like i might feel like it is, but do we really know that God exists and Islam is the truth, no matter how much we may feel it is???

                        But then again, I guess that's why it's called belief and faith, but still, why wouldn't have God made it more clear in the sense of his proof of existence?
                        How do I know 100 percent that you have a brain, cause I aint seen it or you,

                        By using the evidence of your being able to communicate and reason,

                        Same way how we know Allah tala exists through his Signs
                        http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                        "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

                          Originally posted by Abu Zaheer View Post
                          The Quran says ask someone if and when you don't know. Its clear for one person, and many others should go to whom it is clear


                          I think OP is missing that traditional link in advancing himself. I think he is missing an important cog - Sufism and its practices

                          Traditionally this has advanced Muslims like himself into Momins.
                          Are you the guy that claimed you were Slave of the messenger صلى الله عليه و سلم ?

                          نعوذ بالله من ذلك
                          http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                          "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

                            The path to Jahannam doesn't lead anyone to attain the status of a Mu'min
                            http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                            "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

                              Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
                              Are you the guy that claimed you were Slave of the messenger صلى الله عليه و سلم ?

                              نعوذ بالله من ذلك
                              I'd never say that, quote me

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: What I just don't get with the way Allah has made us/sent his message is...

                                Originally posted by Abu Zaheer View Post
                                I'd never say that, quote me
                                Abu somone did, that's why I asked ...
                                http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                                "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

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