Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    الاستواء معلوم والكيف مجهول والايمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة

    "Al-Istiwaa is known, and how is unknown,to have eemaan in it is obligatory and to question it is an innovation"

    :there:
    It is my understanding this particular narration is not authentic, if authentic, these would be my concerns.

    Istiwa is known meaning its wording known to be in the Quran and Sunnah, how it is understood is unknown.

    Salafis understand the statement of Imam Malik to mean, The meaning of istiwa is known.

    If this is true why did the Salafus Saleh differ on what istiwa meant?

    Ibn Qayyim summarised these four explanations in his Nooniyyah saying, "And they (Ahl us-Sunnah) have four explanations for it (istiwaa)..." and then he mentioned, "and they are istaqarra, 'alaa, irtafa'a about which there is no dispute, and likewise sa'uda is the fourth. Aboo 'Ubaydah of Shaybaan has chosen this in his explanation. [21]

    Of these four what meaning did the Prophet :saw: teach his companions?


    Imam Malik on Istiwa

    A man asked Imam Malik (d. 179): “How did Allah make istiwa’ on the throne?” Imam Malik inclined his head and was silent until the sweat of fever covered his brow, then he looked up and said: “Istiwa’ is not unknown (ghayru majhul), the modality of it is inconceivable in the mind (al-kayfu minhu ghayru ma`qul); but belief in it is obligatory, and inquiring about it is a heretical innovation. You are an innovator.” And he gave orders for him to be taken out.

    My Thoughts:

    My methodologically challenged brothers have used this quote from Imam Malik to justify taking the unclear verses related to Allah upon it’s literal meaning (dhahir). As an Ashari, we are concerned about following the Salafus Saleh, and we regard Imam Malik’s statement and followable, however we don’t understand it in the same way that the Salafis understand Imam Malik’s statement.

    Imam Malik did not say istiwa is to be taken upon the literal meaning. Nowhere in any of the quotes that I read from Imam Malik, did he say to take istiwa upon its literal meaning.

    He merely said, “Istiwa is not unknown.” The way the Asharis understand this is that, Istiwa is not unknown, for it is in the Quran. For example, If you would have said to Imam Malik, “Allahu Qadim”, Imam Malik would have said,” Qadim is unknown,” meaning this wording is not known in the Quran or hadiths. Thus Imam Malik was making tafwid.

    That is how we understand that statement from Imam Malik.

    “Istiwaa is not unknown” and “Istiwaa is known” are not the same, while the Salafis read it as the same.
    My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

      Originally posted by Deeni Akh View Post
      [MENTION=86685]aMuslimForLife[/MENTION]

      Within ahlus sunnah is ikhtilaaf in core aspects of Aqeedah permissible? Don't copy and paste please, just directly answer the question.

      And why do ash'aris think that those who don't do ta'weel of the sifaat of Allah do tajseem? they are two opposite extremes. Every Ash'ari I spoke to automatically thought I'm from the mujassimah just because I disagreed with ta'weel.

      I think the scholars would say no, one cannot differ on the core aspects of Aqida.

      In all fairness, I think we all agree on the same core principles of Aqida. We differ on how to apply these principles when it relates to the actual texts (Quran and Sunnah).
      My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

        Originally posted by Deeni Akh View Post
        ...why do ash'aris think that those who don't do ta'weel of the sifaat of Allah do tajseem? they are two opposite extremes. Every Ash'ari I spoke to automatically thought I'm from the mujassimah just because I disagreed with ta'weel.
        Passive takfeer.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

          why suddenly so many Aqeedah threads ?

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

            Originally posted by Bismil View Post
            why suddenly so many Aqeedah threads ?
            They're angry at linkdeutscher :rotfl:
            "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

              Originally posted by Bismil View Post
              why suddenly so many Aqeedah threads ?
              It must be the in thing with this particular cut and paste

              This guy (OP) has a habit of regurgitating the same old rubbish every so often. He did the same thing with sufi threads, got caned, left it a bit then did teh same one again, got caned .......you know the rest

              He will do this and argue for a time then when he gets into a position where he has no come back he will start to question your language and writing skills. He will comment taht he cant understand what you have said for the most basic of comments or questions

              you have been warned

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

                Originally posted by Bismil View Post
                why suddenly so many Aqeedah threads ?
                Unfortunately many people here do not realise in what a danger they're getting themselves when they start speaking about the divine attributes without knowledge.
                Reading a few words on islamqa or other "Salafi" websites does not mean that one has attained any real knowledge. These websites are full of inaccurate and wrong informations.

                The laymen here who are constantly attacking classical positions (like Tafwidh) do not even know the Madhhab of their own Mashayikh, let alone that of those whom they regard as their opponents.

                Let them think about the 7th Ayah in Surat Al 'Imran ask themselves who the people are whom Allah ta'ala describes as { those in whose hearts is perversity }?! Let them also read what Imam al-Qurtubi (d. 671 AH) said in the explanation of the mentioned Ayah: Imam al-Qurtubi on 3:7 - The Followers of the Allegorical Verses

                Originally posted by tayyiboon View Post
                still you are not the only ones who are Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah
                No one said that.

                Originally posted by Deeni Akh View Post
                And why do ash'aris think that those who don't do ta'weel of the sifaat of Allah do tajseem? they are two opposite extremes. Every Ash'ari I spoke to automatically thought I'm from the mujassimah just because I disagreed with ta'weel.
                This shows that you've no idea what the Asha'irah say and what not. There are scholars from the Ahl al-Sunnah who regard Ta`wil as allowed, while other scholars (also from the Ahl al-Sunnah) disagreed (but all of them agree regarding the correctness of Tafwidh).
                The issue of Ta`wil is just an Ijtihadi difference.
                The problem is that the Mujassimah (i.e. Karramiyyah and a group from among the Hanabilah) believe that God has physical attributes and is subject to changes. Do you believe that too?

                Originally posted by Deeni Akh View Post
                Everyone take a look, a really balanced and clear answer from Islamqa:
                Balanced? Brother, can you tell me why you're blindly trusting these types of websites? On the website you're qouting you will find a Fatwa where it's claimed that there is some similarity between the divine attributes and that of the creation. Do you know what the ruling upon such statement is according to classical scholars?

                Originally posted by Deeni Akh View Post
                The Ash’aris are a sect that is named after Imam Abu’l-Hasan al-Ash’ari (may Allaah have mercy on him). Al-Ash’ari passed through three stages – as mentioned by Ibn Taymiyah in Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 4/72 – which may be summed up as follows: a Mu’tazili stage; then following Ibn Kilaab; then following Ahl al-Sunnah, chiefly Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal. Al-Ash’ari clearly stated his final position in his three books: Risaalah ila Ahl al-Thaghr, Maqaalaat al-Islaamiyyeen, and al-Ibaanah. Whoever follows al-Ash’ari at this stage is in accordance with Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah in most issues. Whoever follows his path at the second stage is going against al-Ash’ari himself, and is going against Ahl al-Sunnah in many issues.
                This is pure misinformations that every "Salafi" loves to repret again and again.
                I've some questions for you: What is the position of Imam Abul Hasan al-Ash'ari (d. 324 AH) in his Maqalat al-Islamiyyin regarding the claim that Allah ta'ala has physical attributes and is subject to changes? Does he agree with these [Kufri] claims or does he regard it as the Madhhab of the Mushabbihah and Mujassimah? Have you ever looked into the book?

                Originally posted by Deeni Akh View Post
                Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said in al-Fataawa, 3/338:
                That's the same Ibn 'Uthaymin who denied Mumathalah (which is good), but affirmed Mushabahah (!!!) (which is Kufr!) between the divine attributes and the attributes of the creation in an explicit manner more than once. May Allah ta'ala protect us from following such people.
                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 02-02-16, 08:24 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

                  I've a quesion for those who are acting as if they know the exact interpretation of those Ayat which the classical scholars have regarded to be from the Mutashabihat:

                  What is the meaning of Wajh when it's used for Allah ta'ala? (I don't want a translation, but rather the meaning. Just act as if the one asking you only understands Arabic.)

                  (And if you don't know the answer, then why are you claiming to know the meaning?)
                  Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 02-02-16, 08:43 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

                    Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
                    They're angry at linkdeutscher :rotfl:
                    :crushed:
                    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

                      Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                      I've a quesion for those who are acting as if they know the exact interpretation of those Ayat which the classical scholars have regarded to be from the Mutashabihat:

                      What is the meaning of Wajh when it's used for Allah ta'ala? (I don't want a translation, but rather the meaning. Just act as if the one asking you only understands Arabic.)
                      What is the linguistic meaning of wajh? I mean the Arabic definition.
                      You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                      You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

                        Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                        What is the linguistic meaning of wajh? I mean the Arabic definition.
                        I thought you know the meaning? Aren't you constantly attacking people, because they're relegating the knowledge regarding the Mutashabihat to Allah ta'ala while being sure that there is nothing unto like Him (and this is the Madhhab of the majority of the Salaf al-salih)?

                        So what is the meaning that you're ascribing to Allah ta'ala? And what is the ruling for speaking about Allah ta'ala without knowledge?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

                          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                          I thought you know the meaning? Aren't you attacking people, because they're relegating the knowledge regarding the Mutashabihat to Allah ta'ala (which by the way is the Madhhab of the majority of the Salaf al-salih)?
                          So what is the meaning that you're ascribing to Allah ta'ala? And what is the ruling for speaking about Allah ta'ala without knowledge?
                          Because I asked a question it means I don't know the meaning?

                          :scratch:

                          Can you just answer it?
                          You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                          You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

                            Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                            Because I asked a question it means I don't know the meaning?

                            :scratch:

                            Can you just answer it?
                            I'm the one who asked a question, while you're the one who acts as if he knows the meaning of Yad, Wajh and 'Ayn regarding Allah ta'ala. If you know the meaning - as you claim - then let us hear it from you?

                            And by the way: Are you seriously trying to apply the linguistic definitions that apply to the creation upon Allah ta'ala?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

                              Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                              I'm the one who asked a question, while you're the one who acts as if he knows the meaning of Yad, Wajh and 'Ayn regarding Allah ta'ala. If you know the meaning - as you claim - then let us hear it from you?

                              And by the way: Are you seriously trying to apply the linguistic definitions that apply to the creation upon Allah ta'ala?
                              No I am just asking you an innocent question but you keep acting all weird for some reason...
                              You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                              You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: The Ashari and The Maturidi: The Aqida Schools of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah

                                Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                                I thought you know the meaning? Aren't you constantly attacking people, because they're relegating the knowledge regarding the Mutashabihat to Allah ta'ala while being sure that there is nothing unto like Him (and this is the Madhhab of the majority of the Salaf al-salih)?

                                So what is the meaning that you're ascribing to Allah ta'ala? And what is the ruling for speaking about Allah ta'ala without knowledge?
                                Ikr a lot of these modern day "Salafis" talk about what they don't know of...
                                Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                                What is the linguistic meaning of wajh? I mean the Arabic definition.
                                Wajh means face in Arabic that's the translation and we all know what is a face is...
                                Asharis don't believe it's befitting to literally ascribe a face to Allah since face are of creations and take up space and matter...Allah existed before space and matter......so you get what you are saying when you ascribe a face literally to Allah Ta'ala?
                                Hence the asharis does metaphorical interpretation on the meaning of face
                                Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                                Because I asked a question it means I don't know the meaning?

                                :scratch:

                                Can you just answer it?
                                So why waste people's time when you already know it..
                                Do not commit injustice, because injustice is darkness on the Day of Judgment." (Sahih Muslim)
                                They will say, "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not be among the companions of the Blazing Fire." Qur'an 67:10 💚💙💜

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X