Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post



    It's corret that the world came into being after it was not existent. But when nothing existed [other than Allah ta'ala] there was also no time, because time [and place] only started to exist after the world was created. If one wants to be even more accurate one should also mention that time [and place too] is not even a real existent thing, but rather an i'tibari matter (mental construct) and that both time and place do not apply to Allah ta'ala.
    So what's the meaning of this hadith?

    I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Allah ordained the measures (of quality) of the creation fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth, as His Throne was upon water.
    How can there be fifty thousand years before time even existed?

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

      Originally posted by quark View Post
      So what's the meaning of this hadith?



      How can there be fifty thousand years before time even existed?
      Ahlul Contradiction
      "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

        Originally posted by quark View Post
        So what's the meaning of this hadith?



        How can there be fifty thousand years before time even existed?
        If you were able to understand that the throne and the water have also been created and that Allah ta'ala ordained all things in eternity in reality, why and how did you reach to the conclusion that time existed before the creation of anything?

        This is what Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH) said regarding the narration:

        قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم : ( كتب الله مقادير الخلائق قبل أن يخلق السماوات والأرض بخمسين ألف سنة وعرشه على الماء ) قال العلماء : المراد تحديد وقت الكتابة في اللوح المحفوظ أو غيره ، لا أصل التقدير ، فإن ذلك أزلي لا أول له وقوله : ( وعرشه على الماء ) أي قبل خلق السماوات والأرض . والله أعلم

        Source: Sharh al-Nawawi 'ala Sahih Muslim

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          If you were able to understand that the throne and the water have also been created and that Allah ta'ala ordained all things in eternity in reality, why and how did you reach to the conclusion that time existed before the creation of anything?
          You said world. What's that if not the heavens and the earth?

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

            Originally posted by quark View Post
            You said world. What's that if not the heavens and the earth?
            In Arabic the 'Ulama` would simply say 'Alam (world) while intending everthing other than Allah ta'ala. So "world" in their usage (and also how I intended it here) includes the Qalam, the throne and the water, which are these things that have been created BEFORE the heavens and the earth.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

              M
              Originally posted by Deeni Akh View Post
              Can you give a quick brief summary of the book?
              Please visit www.sunnipubs.com for a summary.
              www.marifah.info

              Wahhabis Refuted
              Ash'aris

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

                Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                Hulul al-Hawadith [fil Dhat al-Ilahiyyah] is the belief that the essence of Allah ta'ala is subject to changes and transitions from one state into another. This is a wrong belief [by agreement of the scholars of Ahl al-Sunnah] and one can rationally show that whatever changes from one state into another must have beginning and is therefore created.

                هذا اللفظ من إطلاقات أهل الكلام، وإليك بعض التفصيل في معناه، ومقصود أهل الكلام منه، والرد على ذلك.


                أ- معنى كلمة (حلول): الحلول هو عبارة عن كون أحد الجسمين ظرفاً للآخر، كحلول الماء في الكوز (1) .


                ب- معنى كلمة (الحوادث): الحوادث جمع حادث، وهو الشيء المخلوق المسبوق بالعدم، ويسمى حدوثاً زمانياً.


                وقد يعبر عن الحدوث بالحاجة إلى الغير، ويسمى حدوثاً ذاتياً.


                والحدوث الذاتي: هو كون الشيء مفتقراً في وجوده إلى الغير.

                والحدوث الزماني: هو كون الشيء مسبوقاً بالعدم سبقاً زمانياً (2) .

                ج- معنى (حلول الحوادث بالله تعالى) أي قيامها بالله، ووجودها فيه تعالى.

                د- مقصود أهل التعطيل من هذا الإطلاق: مقصودهم نفي اتصاف الله بالصفات الاختيارية الفعلية، وهي التي يفعلها متى شاء، كيف شاء، مثل الإتيان لفصل القضاء، والضحك، والعجب، والفرح؛ فينفون جميع الصفات الاختيارية.

                هـ- حجتهم في ذلك: وحجتهم في ذلك أن قيام تلك الصفات بالله يعني قيام الحوادث أي الأشياء المخلوقة الموجودة بالله.



                Brother, do you even know what Ibn Taymiyyah intended when he talked about the so called Sifat al-Ikhtiyariyyah? What he intended is that Allah ta'ala changes Himself by His Will. In a book which he regarded as one of the best books ever written (and it's filled with clear Tashbih!) it is even claimed that Allah ta'ala moves, sits and stands up!
                Is it allowed to believe such things as a Muslim?

                ومسألة الصفات الاختيارية، أو الفعلية، هي التي يسميها المعتزلة والأشاعرة مسألة حلول الحوادث (1) ، وأهم ما يميزها بالنسبة للمذهب الأشعري إجماع متقدمي الأشاعرة ومتأخريهم عليها، لأنها كانت الأساس الذي قام عليه المذهب الكلابي، ثم الأشعري. وهذا بخلاف الصفات الخبرية، أو العلو، فإن الخلاف فيها قائم بين المتقدمين والمتأخرين.

                والصفات الاختيارية هي – كما يقول شيخ الإسلام – "الأمور التي يتصف بها الرب عز وجل، فتقوم بذاته بمشيئته وقدرته، مثل كلامه، وسمعه, وبصره، وإرادته، ومحبته، ورضاه، ورحمته، وغضبه، وسخطه، ومثل خلقه، وإحسانه، وعدلة، ومثل استوائه، ومجيئه، وإتيانه، ونزوله، ونحو ذلك من الصفات التي نطق بها الكتاب العزيز والسنة"
                Watch those eyes

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  He becomes quiet? Ya Subhanallah! Did Allah ta'ala say that or are you blindly repeating what Ibn Taymiyyah and his followers claimed?
                  Seems like you came in a bit late and missed what was happening. I was explaining to someone the differences between the Ash'aris and what Ibn Taymiyyah believed.



                  I hope you know that according to Ibn Taymiyyah there is no first creation (he claimed this even though there are clear cut texts which show otherwise) and that the world (i.e. everything other than Allah ta'ala) is eternal in it's kind according to him. (This is a modified version of the belief of the Falasifah that the world is eternal. Believing that the world is eternal is disbelief by agreement!)
                  I think this is what you are talking about

                  وشيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية لم يخض في هذا الموضوع بهذا الشكل، لأنه يرى أن ليس هناك ما يسمى بأول مخلوق بإطلاق، وإنما هناك مخلوقات قبلها مخلوقات، منها ما نعلمه ومنها ما لا نعلمه.
                  أما الأحاديث التي جاءت، فهي في بيان أولية المخلوقات المعلومة لنا، وحديث عمران بن حصين نفسه يدل على أن العرش قبل القلم، لأن فيه (كان الله ولم يكن شيء قبله، وكان عرشه على الماء) ، إذا كان هناك ماء، وكان هناك عرش قبل أن تخلق السموات والأرض.

                  (1/268)

                  ومعنى قول المصنف رحمه الله في حديث: (أول ما خلق الله القلم...) -كما سيأتي في موضعه- أن كلمة "أول" هنا:
                  إما أن تأتي مبتدأ والقلم خبرها، فنقول: أول ما خلق الله القلم -بضم آخر كلمتي أول والقلم- وهذا معروف، وعليه كلام الشيخ ناصر الدين الألباني رحمه الله.

                  وإما أن تأتي كلمة أول منصوبة، فتكون ظرفا، بمعنى: عندما خلق الله القلم، أي: أول ما خلقه الله قال له: اكتب.
                  ومن جمع الروايات تبين له أنها تصير على الوجه الأخير.
                  وإنما قلنا العالم المشهود، لأن وفد اليمن قالوا: جئنا نسألك عن أول هذا الأمر ، أي: أهو العرش، أم الماء، أم هما معا؟ فيخبرهم النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه بعد أن خلق الله -سبحانه وتعالى- العرش خلق القلم، وعندما خلق القلم -قبل أن يخلق السموات والأرض بخمسين ألف سنة كما جاء في صحيح مسلم - أمره أن يكتب كل شيء.
                  إذا؛ فهذا لا يتعارض مع ذلك، بأنه خلق هذا، ثم خلق القلم، وهو ظاهر ما في صحيح مسلم ، والقول بتقدم خلق القلم على جميع المخلوقات فيه خلاف، والظاهر من روايات حديث عمران بن حصين أن العرش متقدم عليه، ويشهد لهذا روايات أخرى جاءت في المسند وفي غيره، دلت على أن العرش هو أول المخلوقات من هذا الكون الحسي المشهود، ومن القرءان قوله سبحانه وتعالى: وهو الذي خلق السماوات والأرض في ستة أيام وكان عرشه على الماء [هود:7]، فقوله: وكان عرشه على الماء ، يدل على أن العرش وهذا الماء غير داخلين في العالم المشهود الذي هو السموات والأرض.
                  وذكر الشيخ العلامة المحدث محمد ناصر الدين الألباني رحمه الله في الجزء الأول من سلسلة الأحاديث الصحيحة برقم "133" حديث: (أول ما خلق الله القلم) ، تحت عنوان: أول مخلوق
                  Watch those eyes

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

                    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post

                    هذا اللفظ من إطلاقات أهل الكلام، وإليك بعض التفصيل في معناه، ومقصود أهل الكلام منه، والرد على ذلك.
                    If you really want to know what the "evil" [Ash'ari] Mutakallimun said regarding a specific issue of belief, you should simply go and read what they said and NOT simply trust random "Salafi" books.
                    And likewise if you want to know Ibn Taymiyyah's (d. 728 AH) stance regarding a specific issue, then go and read what he said.

                    FYI: "Salafi" Mashayikh are not good at explaining things and they love to confuse their readers, so that their readers will not understand what the real point of dispute is.

                    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
                    ومسألة الصفات الاختيارية، أو الفعلية، هي التي يسميها المعتزلة والأشاعرة مسألة حلول الحوادث (1) ، وأهم ما يميزها بالنسبة للمذهب الأشعري إجماع متقدمي الأشاعرة ومتأخريهم عليها، لأنها كانت الأساس الذي قام عليه المذهب الكلابي، ثم الأشعري. وهذا بخلاف الصفات الخبرية، أو العلو، فإن الخلاف فيها قائم بين المتقدمين والمتأخرين.
                    In order to be able to make such claims one would need to know the Madhhab of the Mutaqaddimin and the Muta`akhirin of the Asha'irah and this is something that the "Salafis" have no knowledge of.
                    If they really think that the Madhhab of the Mutaqaddimin regarding that which they call as Sifat Khabariyyah and regarding the issue of 'Uluw is the same as theirs then this just shows their compound ignorance.

                    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
                    والصفات الاختيارية هي – كما يقول شيخ الإسلام – "الأمور التي يتصف بها الرب عز وجل، فتقوم بذاته بمشيئته وقدرته، مثل كلامه، وسمعه, وبصره، وإرادته، ومحبته، ورضاه، ورحمته، وغضبه، وسخطه، ومثل خلقه، وإحسانه، وعدلة، ومثل استوائه، ومجيئه، وإتيانه، ونزوله، ونحو ذلك من الصفات التي نطق بها الكتاب العزيز والسنة"
                    The issue is not about weather Allah ta'ala can be described with Rahmah, Ghadhab, Ridhah, etc., but rather that Ibn Taymiyyah believed that divine essence is subject to changes. Do you understand what that means?
                    I've already mentioned that in one of his favorite books it is even claimed that Allah ta'ala moves. Movement (Harakah) and stillness (Sukun) are from the attributes of bodies (Ajsam). What is ruling regarding the one who describes Allah ta'ala in such a way?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

                      Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy in the first part of his life, used to be a Mu'taziliyy since he was brought up at the hands of Abu Alee al-Jubaa'ee the Shaikh of the Mu'tazilah of Basrah in his time.

                      And Allaah willed goodness for Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy and granted him success in taking from the Book and the Sunnah and abandoning the madhhab of the Mu'tazilah. Then he refuted the sophistry of the Mu'tazilah, exposed their falsehood, rendered futile their arguments with both textual evidence and by way of reason. His books testify to that. He then remained, for a period, speaking in certain matters of belief, with the saying of Ibn Kullaab. However, in the final stage of his life he was upon the aqeedah of the Salaf and he spoke with whatever Imaam Ahmad spoke with - may Allaah have mercy upon him - with respect to all the Attributes of Allaah. So he affirmed for Allaah whatever Allaah affirmed for himself and whatever His Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) affirmed for Him in his Sunnah. The contemporary followers of Ash'ari are not true followers of al-Ash'ari, but in fact followers of the second stage of his life in which he adopted the views of Ibn Kullaab. They also follow the influences of the Jahmee and Mu'tazilee school of thought that remained with Abu Hasan al-Ash'ari.

                      Sources: http://www.asharis.com/creed/article...life-in-re.cfm
                      http://www.sahihmuslim.com/sps/sp.cf...articlePages=1
                      Before you ask a question: https://islamqa.info/en

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

                        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                        If you really want to know what the "evil" [Ash'ari] Mutakallimun said regarding a specific issue of belief, you should simply go and read what they said and NOT simply trust random "Salafi" books.
                        And likewise if you want to know Ibn Taymiyyah's (d. 728 AH) stance regarding a specific issue, then go and read what he said.
                        I was, believe it or not. It was a book written by al-Juwayni, I believe, and the way he delved into the nature of Allah, was rather disturbing. I think he was rebutting the Mu'tazilla in the book.

                        FYI: "Salafi" Mashayikh are not good at explaining things and they love to confuse their readers, so that their readers will not understand what the real point of dispute is.
                        Well, no offense intended but whichever group you ask will say that about the other. They say the same thing about the Ash'aris. So, really the last person one would ask is the opposition when looking into a matter.

                        In order to be able to make such claims one would need to know the Madhhab of the Mutaqaddimin and the Muta`akhirin of the Asha'irah and this is something that the "Salafis" have no knowledge of.
                        If they really think that the Madhhab of the Mutaqaddimin regarding that which they call as Sifat Khabariyyah and regarding the issue of 'Uluw is the same as theirs then this just shows their compound ignorance.
                        ok.

                        The issue is not about weather Allah ta'ala can be described with Rahmah, Ghadhab, Ridhah, etc., but rather that Ibn Taymiyyah believed that divine essence is subject to changes. Do you understand what that means?
                        But are you denying that the Ash'aris even make Ta'weel of Rahmah?


                        I've already mentioned that in one of his favorite books Allah ta'ala it is even claimed that Allah ta'ala moves. Movement (Harakah) and stillness (Sukun) are from the attributes of bodies (Ajsam).
                        See when you use the rationale of Ajsaam to negate Sukun and Harakah then you have the onlooker like me wondering if the Salafis aren't lying after all because they say that this is the very logic based upon which the Ash'aris have rejected certain Sifah of Allah and then say that this was borrowed from the philosophers.
                        Watch those eyes

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

                          Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy in the first part of his life, used to be a Mu'taziliyy since he was brought up at the hands of Abu Alee al-Jubaa'ee the Shaikh of the Mu'tazilah of Basrah in his time.

                          And Allaah willed goodness for Abu Hasan al-Ash'ariyy and granted him success in taking from the Book and the Sunnah and abandoning the madhhab of the Mu'tazilah. Then he refuted the sophistry of the Mu'tazilah, exposed their falsehood, rendered futile their arguments with both textual evidence and by way of reason. His books testify to that. He then remained, for a period, speaking in certain matters of belief, with the saying of Ibn Kullaab. However, in the final stage of his life he was upon the aqeedah of the Salaf and he spoke with whatever Imaam Ahmad spoke with - may Allaah have mercy upon him - with respect to all the Attributes of Allaah. So he affirmed for Allaah whatever Allaah affirmed for himself and whatever His Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) affirmed for Him in his Sunnah. The contemporary followers of Ash'ari are not true followers of al-Ash'ari, but in fact followers of the second stage of his life in which he adopted the views of Ibn Kullaab. They also follow the influences of the Jahmee and Mu'tazilee school of thought that remained with Abu Hasan al-Ash'ari.
                          Before you ask a question: https://islamqa.info/en

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

                            Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                            The issue is not about weather Allah ta'ala can be described with Rahmah, Ghadhab, Ridhah, etc., but rather that Ibn Taymiyyah believed that divine essence is subject to changes. Do you understand what that means?
                            I've already mentioned that in one of his favorite books it is even claimed that Allah ta'ala moves. Movement (Harakah) and stillness (Sukun) are from the attributes of bodies (Ajsam). What is ruling regarding the one who describes Allah ta'ala in such a way?
                            And after having read both sides [and without getting into what I personally believe] the whole problem with the Ash'ari perspective is that is that similitude right there in bold. The Ash'aris observe the creation and then draw logical conclusions that this cannot be with Allah or else it is Tajseem.

                            Anything which has a Jism moves in this world. The Ash'aris take this concept and say if we say Allah moves than that means He has a Jism. Since when was that applicable? Allah isn't like anything. If we accept that He said that He moves from one place to another why does the concept of a Jism hold for Him? Just because we see that in this world if something moves it has a Jism?

                            And the whole issue is that the movement of the Ash'aris started off from debates with the Mu'tazilla. To combat their 'logical' arguments, the Imaams of the Ash'aris had to come up with logical answers. A Being who creates that which has no model or form, gives life to the dead, makes Jesus (peace be upon him) enter this world without a father, etc., you want to say that if one attributes anything to Him which would result in a Jism if we were to attribute that same thing to something in this world makes no sense at all.

                            Based on this logic, I guess you would agree that since 1+1 = 2, Allah cannot make it equal 3 or 4 if He Wills? He is bound, right?
                            Watch those eyes

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

                              Accidental double post sorry.
                              Before you ask a question: https://islamqa.info/en

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: New Book Release: Ahl Al-Sunna : The Ash'aris

                                Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
                                And after having read both sides [and without getting into what I personally believe] the whole problem with the Ash'ari perspective is that is that similitude right there in bold. The Ash'aris observe the creation and then draw logical conclusions that this cannot be with Allah or else it is Tajseem.

                                Anything which has a Jism moves in this world. The Ash'aris take this concept and say if we say Allah moves than that means He has a Jism. Since when was that applicable? Allah isn't like anything. If we accept that He said that He moves from one place to another why does the concept of a Jism hold for Him? Just because we see that in this world if something moves it has a Jism?

                                And the whole issue is that the movement of the Ash'aris started off from debates with the Mu'tazilla. To combat their 'logical' arguments, the Imaams of the Ash'aris had to come up with logical answers. A Being who creates that which has no model or form, gives life to the dead, makes Jesus (peace be upon him) enter this world without a father, etc., you want to say that if one attributes anything to Him which would result in a Jism if we were to attribute that same thing to something in this world makes no sense at all.

                                Based on this logic, I guess you would agree that since 1+1 = 2, Allah cannot make it equal 3 or 4 if He Wills? He is bound, right?
                                It's not that Allah is bound...1+1=2 because that's the law of math Allah created of course He can change natural laws if He wills..

                                But another reason, Asharis say that Allah does not move because movement is change and Allah does not change so hence we don't say He moves or comes down in the third part of the night or sits on the throne literally because it also does affirm a body which again is only for created beings and bodies take up space and matter which is again created so we can't attribute a body to Allah and don't you need a body inorder to move? And another reason is that we don't ascribe a location or direction to Allah that's also shirk to Asharis... Asharis also affirm Rahmah and other attributes of Allah but they don't see it as an emotion
                                https://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/2...ut-not-allaah/

                                ---

                                But I don't get why Salafis follow Ibn Taymiyyah on Aqidah when Ibn Taymiyyah repented from his beliefs about Allah before he died...many scholars refuted him so it's best not to follow Ibn Taymiyyah on Aqidah but he was brilliant in the matters of fiqh so even Hanafi and other madhhabs cite him for fiqhi matters

                                They will say, "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not be among the companions of the Blazing Fire." Qur'an 67:10 💚💙💜

                                Comment

                                Collapse

                                Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                                Working...
                                X