Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

[Reepicheep]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Sigh....... the "brothers" are your believers, not the infidels.

OK, I'll concede, for the sake of argument, that Christians believe they won't be punished for murdering non-Christians. My conclusion from this fact would be that Christians are evil and following an evil, false religion.

Likewise, if Muslims believe (as you claim) that they won't be punished for murdering non-Muslims, then my conclusion would be that Muslims are evil and following an evil, false religion.

You can't prove your own innocence by proving someone else is also guilty of the same crime. Just because Christians believe it is not a sin to murder non-Christians, I don't see how Muslims can use that fact to justify murdering non-Muslims.

[Blackbeard]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

OK, I'll concede, for the sake of argument, that Christians believe they won't be punished for murdering non-Christians. My conclusion from this fact would be that Christians are evil and following an evil, false religion.

Likewise, if Muslims believe (as you claim) that they won't be punished for murdering non-Muslims, then my conclusion would be that Muslims are evil and following an evil, false religion.

You can't prove your own innocence by proving someone else is also guilty of the same crime. Just because Christians believe it is not a sin to murder non-Christians, I don't see how Muslims can use that fact to justify murdering non-Muslims.

And I can't see how you have issues with this then and justify going back to the religion of Shirk.

Do you see the issue here?

Difference here is that we muslims are encouraged to promote Islam not kill. If you cause corruption by killing mercelessly instead of helping people to convert, you deserve to be put down


Since you asked about their blood. Its the same as old christianity teachings, just that we are not commanded to kill them, rather we convert them. Their blood is permissible incase they transgress, same as christianity.

Again you missing the word justification which I said around 10 times now.

[sandman123]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Two questions for you:

(1) If Blackbeard was to go to Toronto and randomly murder 50 non-Muslims, do you personally believe he would be committing a sin?

(2) If you were present while he was murdering non-Muslims, would you try to stop him?

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity. " - Qur'an 5:32

In Islam it's absolutely prohibited to take another humans life and if someone says otherwise then he's lying and misinterpreting the verses of Allah. Your hypothetical doesn't make any sense. No person in their right mind would randomly murder someone unless he's sick in his head, and you don't need to be a Muslim for that. A crime is a crime. It doesn't have a religion, race or language. If someone harmed my neighbor, be him a Muslim or a kafir, I will make sure the criminal gets punished regardless of weather he's a Muslim or some alien species of human being.

[Blackbeard]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity. " - Qur'an 5:32

In Islam it's absolutely prohibited to take another humans life and if someone says otherwise then he's lying and misinterpreting the verses of Allah. Your hypothetical doesn't make any sense. No person in their right mind would randomly murder someone unless he's sick in his head, and you don't need to be a Muslim for that. A crime is a crime. It doesn't have a religion, race or language. If someone harmed my neighbor, be him a Muslim or a kafir, I will make sure the criminal gets punished regardless of weather he's a Muslim or some alien species of human being.

You are slandering me of lying against Allah SWT and his messenger, show me scholarly input from the 4 madhabs if you should be truthful. Show me anything from the respected scholars of the old, be it sheikh al islam. imam shafi'i , imam abu hanifa etc. which proves your point that Allah has made the blood of the kafir sacred.

I don't need to lie to make someone understand religion. Just because asked about it, doesn't mean one should lie.

As of right now you're going against the ijma of the scholars.

[Blackbeard]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Yet again one needs to understand that if there is justification for it, be it in Jihad then they are allowed to be fought because their blood is permissible.

At least I brought evidence for it but sandman123 makes his own itjihad


But idiots dont understand how a Khalifate system works, how it's ruled and how there are no unprotected kafirs in a central muslim government ruled country and thus such killings cant occur there but only on hostile territory outside of the state, thus they technically were allowed to be fought for either their transgression or to expand territory.


It's no difference today, we have laws in the west and as such killing is a crime here which serves prison or being put to death. Why would one kill a disbeliever, and then end up in prison dying or being put to death? Why wouldn't one spread the message of Islam, the way our prophet did to those in his territory? Earn massive rewards by doing it for the sake of Allah? If it was killing, we would have killed everyone. Seriously use your head.

[sandman123]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

You are slandering me of lying against Allah SWT and his messenger, show me scholarly input from the 4 madhabs if you should be truthful. Show me anything from the respected scholars of the old, be it sheikh al islam. imam shafi'i , imam abu hanifa etc. which proves your point that Allah has made the blood of the kafir sacred.

I don't need to lie to make someone understand religion. Just because asked about it, doesn't mean one should lie.

As of right now you're going against the ijma of the scholars.

I'm not a scholar so I can't really bother myself with that. What I'm saying doesn't go against any Islamic principal. To be just, kind and compassionate towards other humans is basic human nature. Allah won't punish you for being kind to your non-Muslim neighbor, chances are that you will get punished for harming him. That particular verse of Quran that I quoted above talks about the whole of humanity. It didn't say that killing a Muslims means killing whole Muslim ummah..Mankind includes Muslim, Christians, Jews, Hindus and every person that lives and breathes on this planet.

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity. " - Qur'an 5:32

There are many verses of the Qur'an, too numerous to list all, that establish that man has been given the free will to believe or to disbelieve. Don't forget people are believers or disbelievers only according to Allah's will: if Allah had willed, everyone would have been a believer, and so killing people simply because of their disbelief is contrary to the will of Allah.

"And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?" - Qur'an 10:99

You may wonder, how would the Prophet debate with disbelievers on religious issues, settle disputes between them, eat their food, accept their gifts, sign treaties with them, and even in one instance stand up in respect of a Jew that had died, if he also ordered to kill them? Does that make sense? How would the Qur'an say we're allowed to marry women from the People of the Book if we're supposed to kill them? Would you kill your own wife or inlaws?

In a summary, this is a minority extremist view, or one held by ignorant critics of Islam, and we have a duty to point out the errors of anyone who might be inclined towards this.

[Blackbeard]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

I'm not a scholar so I can't really bother myself with that. What I'm saying doesn't go against any Islamic principal. To be just, kind and compassionate towards other humans is basic human nature. Allah won't punish you for being kind to your non-Muslim neighbor, chances are that you will get punished for harming him. That particular verse of Quran that I quoted above talks about the whole of humanity. It didn't say that killing a Muslims means killing whole Muslim ummah..Mankind includes Muslim, Christians, Jews, Hindus and every person that lives and breathes on this planet.

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity. " - Qur'an 5:32

There are many verses of the Qur'an, too numerous to list all, that establish that man has been given the free will to believe or to disbelieve. Don't forget people are believers or disbelievers only according to Allah's will: if Allah had willed, everyone would have been a believer, and so killing people simply because of their disbelief is contrary to the will of Allah.

"And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?" - Qur'an 10:99

You may wonder, how would the Prophet debate with disbelievers on religious issues, settle disputes between them, eat their food, accept their gifts, sign treaties with them, and even in one instance stand up in respect of a Jew that had died, if he also ordered to kill them? Does that make sense? How would the Qur'an say we're allowed to marry women from the People of the Book if we're supposed to kill them? Would you kill your own wife or inlaws?

In a summary, this is a minority extremist view, or one held by ignorant critics of Islam, and we have a duty to point out the errors of anyone who might be inclined towards this.

Read my updated post

Yet again one needs to understand that if there is justification for it, be it in Jihad then they are allowed to be fought because their blood is permissible.

At least I brought evidence for it but sandman123 makes his own itjihad


But idiots dont understand how a Khalifate system works, how it's ruled and how there are no unprotected kafirs in a central muslim government ruled country and thus such killings cant occur there but only on hostile territory outside of the state, thus they technically were allowed to be fought for either their transgression or to expand territory.


It's no difference today, we have laws in the west and as such killing is a crime here which serves prison or being put to death. Why would one kill a disbeliever, and then end up in prison dying or being put to death? Why wouldn't one spread the message of Islam, the way our prophet did to those in his territory? Earn massive rewards by doing it for the sake of Allah? If it was killing, we would have killed everyone. Seriously use your head.

And yet again, you make itjihad. You say you are not a scholar, yet you pass a fatwa. You say you cannot be bothered with them, yet you say they are the minority view. Wallahi this is the way to destruction.

if you read tafsir ibn kathir he says that it involves souls which Allah has forbidden and thus you cannot kill a soul allah has forbidden such as a muslim.

Here

means, "Whoever kills one soul that Allah has forbidden killing, is just like he who kills all mankind.'' Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "He who allows himself to shed the blood of a Muslim, is like he who allows shedding the blood of all people. He who forbids shedding the blood of one Muslim, is like he who forbids shedding the blood of all people.'' In addition, Ibn Jurayj said that Al-A`raj said that Mujahid commented on the Ayah,

He who kills a believing soul intentionally, Allah makes the Fire of Hell his abode, He will become angry with him, and curse him, and has prepared a tremendous punishment for him, equal to if he had killed all people, his punishment will still be the same.'' Ibn Jurayj said that Mujahid said that the Ayah,

[sandman123]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

I have said all I needed to say. I don't need to further argue on this issue. Anyone with any semblance of sanity will understand what I'm saying.

Hate breeds hate. Live and let live!!

Adios!

[Blackbeard]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

I have said all I needed to say. I don't need to further argue on this issue. Anyone with any semblance of sanity will understand what I'm saying.

Hate breeds hate. Live and let live!!

Adios!

Yea go away, make your own itjihad and throw yourself into the fire.

[Oum Soumayyah]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Oh come on.

Many people become Muslim after hearing the worse things on Islam.
Curiosity makes them research and/or ask questions. It's part of our fitrah to ask questions.
So this argument is very flawed.

Allah will not accept anything but Islam; that's final as He clearly told us in the Qur'an.
If Allah wants to guide someone, even if he lives in a cave, he would be guided.
I have heard and witness people you would think would be less likely to hear about Islam
or become Muslim. Allah knows what to do to call someone to His Deen. We don't need to
worry about that. That's easy for Allah.
And Allah is Just, so no one will get the ease way out without being tested.
People will be tested in this dunia and some will be tested in the Aakhirah.
No one will escape the test; that's a given. Allah is Just and we should
have the best opinion of Him.

We should worry about whether or not we will make it to Jannah instead
of worrying if someone who "never heard of Islam" (doubt this) would make
or not or have the easy way out. Everyone will be tested.
And choosing to be ignorant in order to escape punishment is actually
laughable yet sad at the same time. That wouldn't be an excuse on the Day
of Judgement. We are obliged to seek the truth. There's really
no excuse; especially now information is at the tip of our finger tips.
We all make mistakes, but there's always room for repentance as long as
we're still alive. The only sin Allah will not forgive is shirk (associating partners
with Him) once a person dies. But as long as he/she is alive, there's room
for repentance. So this is really not a place to joke around with. If someone
cares someone about someone who hasn't heard of Islam, then why not go
ahead and let the person know?

"Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin." Surah An-Nisa (4:48)

Some of us get angry when we're told about halal and/or halal, but we fail
to realise that it's for our own benefit really (obviously, ideally in a kind way).
Personally, I couldn't be friend with someone who sees me do something wrong
and doesn't let me know. That's not true friendship. It means you'd rather (possibly; depending on what it is obviously)
see me in hell than "hurt" my feelings in this world. Talk about friendship.

We have to stay in our place and not speculations after clear statements have come
to us. Let's just take things as they are and leave the rest to Allah. What is clearly
understood from the Qur'an and the Sunnah is that Islam is the only Deen Allah will
accept. And Allah will not forgive shirk after someone dies. By the way, messengers
were already sent and anyone can find out about Islam if he/she is curious enough
as many others did.

"Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam..." Surah Al Baqarah (3:19)

And Allah knows best.

[Sfe995]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

My questions still stand

The question is what if someone says it is not fair that some people get to do whatever they want and have a chance of going to Jannah?

And saying that it is not fair that someone who is of this category can do wrong things and be better than/in the same position as a muslim sinner because a muslim sinner KNOWS he is doing wrong but someone of this category does not know?

I doubt that everyone in pornography for example has heard of Islam, what if someone asks is it fair that these people are allowed to do that and then go to Jannah?

What if a Muslim is jealous of these people and wish he had never heard the true message of Islam?

[Saif-Uddin]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

In reality, we do not know what Allah is going to do with them. The scholars differ on this issue.

Allah tala already done his bit by sending messengers and prophets, that line has ended,

cant plead ignorance any more.

[Saif-Uddin]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

My questions still stand

The question is what if someone says it is not fair that some people get to do whatever they want and have a chance of going to Jannah?

And saying that it is not fair that someone who is of this category can do wrong things and be better than/in the same position as a muslim sinner because a muslim sinner KNOWS he is doing wrong but someone of this category does not know?

I doubt that everyone in pornography for example has heard of Islam, what if someone asks is it fair that these people are allowed to do that and then go to Jannah?

What if a Muslim is jealous of these people and wish he had never heard the true message of Islam?

where did you get this absurd idea from?

false assumption,

doesnt really matter what you think,

Porn is against ones Fitra,

whoever has fallen into this filth cant plead ignorrance, than a Rapist or a Pedo or a Murderer

[aMuslimForLife]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Allah tala already done his bit by sending messengers and prophets, that line has ended,

cant plead ignorance any more.

That's your opinion. And I don't agree with it. Ignorance is a great plea especially in this day and time, with so many version of Islam floating around.
Al Qaeda, ISIS, and other terrorist groups are a reason many people will not even consider a valid religion. And Salafism lacks true spirituality, there are people who would reject Islam on that alone.

[Saif-Uddin]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

That's your opinion. And I don't agree with it. Ignorance is a great plea especially in this day and time, with so many version of Islam floating around.
Al Qaeda, ISIS, and other terrorist groups are a reason many people will not even consider a valid religion. And Salafism lacks true spirituality, there are people who would reject Islam on that alone.

It isn't my opinion,

read the Quran,

the Onus is on every individual to seek the Purpose of their life,

if they sought any way other than Islam, it will be rejected and they will be the Ultimate Loosers in Akhira, as Allah Azzawajal says.