Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

[noobz]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Google only tells you if you ask.

Some girls in the west spend most of their time finding or keeping a BF. Some might be too much into football or music. No Muslim in their small town. Some will be lucky to accidentally add Muslims like Adnan Rashid of fb. Others grew up hearing filthy language from their drunk dad about Islam and Muslims. Don't you think chance and opportunity can be a factor.

destiny.

but then we could use the same argument for people during the time of Muhammad(sws) , people surrounded by kaffirs spewing hate and all sorts of insults.

The environment does influence u though , that is also in hadith.

[Bismil]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

I didn't say she was kafir, she's a person who never received the message of Allah swt from our prophet saaws. The opinion I read and accept and was trying to convey is that we don't judge that only Allah does. We judge by what is apparent and it is apparent that she didn't accept the message of Islam. She may have been a believer at heart only Allah knows that. This is the opinion of many reputable scholars if you want references I'll look for them and link them for you Bismil.

Allah will judge the intentions and hearts of people. We don't condemn people to hell but we do judge by what is apparent in order to not create fitnah and allow the spreading of falsehood.

I've never heard the opinion that Bismil have if you have references please link them. I would really appreciate it I would like to read they. Jazak Allah Khair in advance

I also agree with your point , we judge by apparent.

We call them kafir , so they will be distinguished from us, like in case of marriage , heritage , being buried in a Muslim graveyard etc.

I was just saying that if someone never heard message in proper way , then Allah swt may forgive . I am not saying He will.

But in this world we have to take them as kafirs .

[Linkdeutscher]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Google only tells you if you ask.

Some girls in the west spend most of their time finding or keeping a BF. Some might be too much into football or music. No Muslim in their small town. Some will be lucky to accidentally add Muslims like Adnan Rashid of fb. Others grew up hearing filthy language from their drunk dad about Islam and Muslims. Don't you think chance and opportunity can be a factor.

Their own loss.

[Blackbeard]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

...

Idiots like you take away one important part of what one has said.

Now im going to ask you, did any kafir with their blood unprotected exist in muslim territory approx 200 years ago? It's impossible, for them to even live there they have to pay taxes.


Whats the difference between an atheist who doesn't believe in hellfire, can do whatever he wants but still doesn't kill... and a muslim who doesn't believe it's a sin but still doesn't kill?

Do you not know we are law abiding citizens and that crime of a murder is life in prison?` There is no sin, there is no reward, you will only destroy your life and sit in prison for the rest of your life. Hypocrisy which will throw you in hell.

[Reepicheep]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

There is no sin, there is no reward

Just to confirm what you are saying: lets say you walk down the streets of Toronto with a chainsaw, randomly cutting off the heads of 50 non-muslim people, before your chainsaw runs out of gas and you are arrested. You say you will neither be rewarded nor punished in the afterlife for murdering those 50 people. Allah is absolutely indifferent to the suffering of non-Muslims. Murder them, don't murder them, it's all the same to Allah. Correct?

Let's say that, instead of killing 50 humans, you instead steal 50 cats from your neighbourhood and slice them in half with a chainsaw. Have you committed a sin by killing those cats? Or, is Allah indifferent to the suffering of cats, just as he is indifferent to the suffering of non-Muslim humans?

[Blackbeard]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Just to confirm what you are saying: lets say you walk down the streets of Toronto with a chainsaw, randomly cutting off the heads of 50 non-muslim people, before your chainsaw runs out of gas and you are arrested. You say you will neither be rewarded nor punished in the afterlife for murdering those 50 people. Allah is absolutely indifferent to the suffering of non-Muslims. Murder them, don't murder them, it's all the same to Allah. Correct?

Let's say that, instead of killing 50 humans, you instead steal 50 cats from your neighbourhood and slice them in half with a chainsaw. Have you committed a sin by killing those cats? Or, is Allah indifferent to the suffering of cats, just as he is indifferent to the suffering of non-Muslim humans?

The animals are worshipers of Allah in their own way and thus we are not allowed to touch them like that.

The kafir however has neglected Allah and thus there is no protection for them. Now again, why would someone go with a chainsaw and kill people in toronto? It brings nothing....? only a lifetime in jail lol..... and if its not justified, and he died, he did not do anything good so he still subject to either be judged for hell or paradise....


you wont get paradise for killing a kafir who doesn't deserve it. or else the world would have beeen different.

[Faisal-Parwana]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

The animals are worshipers of Allah in their own way and thus we are not allowed to touch them like that.

The kafir however has neglected Allah and thus there is no protection for them. Now again, why would someone go with a chainsaw and kill people in toronto? It brings nothing....? only a lifetime in jail lol..... and if its not justified, and he died, he did not do anything good so he still subject to either be judged for hell or paradise....


you wont get paradise for killing a kafir who doesn't deserve it. or else the world would have beeen different.

But is it a sin to kill non Muslims like it is a sin to kill a a cat?

[Blackbeard]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

But is it a sin to kill non Muslims like it is a sin to kill a a cat?

the ulama haven't mentioned anything, they say the kafara does not have to be paid nor is it any punishment if it's justified. they go back to the ahadith of Muhammad :saw: which talks about their blood being unprotected before entering Islam.

And there is a lot of inputs from scholars such as sheikh al islam and imam shafi'i

this is why it has allowed older nations to attack kufr nations, execute kuffar who fight, expand territory and enslave without it being a sin.


Though times is different now. This is under a sharia ruled nation, were there is no kuffar without their blood protected (because of dhimmi status). Now we muslims are mixed with the kafirs in the west and everywhere, but there is still laws in the kufr nation one should abide.

[Reepicheep]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Blackbeard has declared, in the name of Allah, that it is neither a sin nor a crime under Sharia to murder non-Muslims who haven't paid the Jizya tax. In particular, Blackbeard claims that, since Canadian non-Muslims don't pay the Jizya tax, then it is perfectly permissible no matter what the circumstances for Muslims to murder non-Muslim Canadians.

I am stating before God that I find this belief to be offensive, blasphemous, and wrong, and I am rejecting Islam because I refuse to believe in a god who would be indifferent to the murders of non-Muslims, and who values the lives of cats more than he values the lives of non-Muslim humans.

****************

So, what is my fate going to be on the Day of Judgement? My understanding of the Koran and Hadith is as follows (someone please correct me if I am wrong):

If Blackbeard is giving an accurate description of what Allah thinks of non-Muslims, then my soul is damned beyond redemption because I think non-Muslim human lives are more valuable than the lives of cats.

If Blackbeard is giving an inaccurate description of what Allah thinks of non-Muslims, then on the Day of Judgement I will not be punished for refusing to accept Islam, and Blackbeard will take my place in hell because he made inaccurate claims about Allah.

********************

I have also read that any Muslim who hears another Muslim giving an inaccurate description of Islam, but neglects to correct the incorrect muslim, is just as guilty of spreading lies about Allah as the second Muslim.

Does this rule apply in this instance? If a Muslim reads Blackbeard's post about the acceptability of murdering non-Muslims, but neglects to correct him, will that Muslim also be damned on the Day of Judgement for allowing me to reject Islam because of the lies that Blackbeard wrote?

[Blackbeard]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Blackbeard has declared, in the name of Allah, that it is neither a sin nor a crime under Sharia to murder non-Muslims who haven't paid the Jizya tax. In particular, Blackbeard claims that, since Canadian non-Muslims don't pay the Jizya tax, then it is perfectly permissible no matter what the circumstances for Muslims to murder non-Muslim Canadians.

I am stating before God that I find this belief to be offensive, blasphemous, and wrong, and I am rejecting Islam because I refuse to believe in a god who would be indifferent to the murders of non-Muslims, and who values the lives of cats more than he values the lives of non-Muslim humans.

****************

So, what is my fate going to be on the Day of Judgement? My understanding of the Koran and Hadith is as follows (someone please correct me if I am wrong):

If Blackbeard is giving an accurate description of what Allah thinks of non-Muslims, then my soul is damned beyond redemption because I think non-Muslim human lives are more valuable than the lives of cats.

If Blackbeard is giving an inaccurate description of what Allah thinks of non-Muslims, then on the Day of Judgement I will not be punished for refusing to accept Islam, and Blackbeard will take my place in hell because he made inaccurate claims about Allah.

********************

I have also read that any Muslim who hears another Muslim giving an inaccurate description of Islam, but neglects to correct the incorrect muslim, is just as guilty of spreading lies about Allah as the second Muslim.

Does this rule apply in this instance? If a Muslim reads Blackbeard's post about the acceptability of murdering non-Muslims, but neglects to correct him, will that Muslim also be damned on the Day of Judgement for allowing me to reject Islam because of the lies that Blackbeard wrote?

No one needs a dimwit like you in Islam. We don't need you, Allah does not need you but you need him.

You're beyond stupid and I am starting to question if you're even here to learn or to spew bullshit. I call you a dimwit because even though I explained how this ruling comes in place, how muslims were unified, ruled by a central government and the kafirs in there were paying tax, their blood being impermissible and they free mixing with the muslims. You still ignore all that and twist my words. If you are not sincere, may Allah crush you, humiliate you with your ignorance and make it a reminder for dimwits like you who have no interest to learn in Islam.

The day you'll die, the day you weighted your whole afterlife on the basis of a kafir being protected by Allah or not is going to be humiliating at best. What stopped you from coming back to Allah? the issue of the permissible blood of a kafir attacking the muslims. What a humiliating day.... and on top of that, the fact that you are a hypocrite who doesn't care that an atheist believe there is no sin in killing but still doesn't kill because he follows the law of the nation the same with the muslim. But just because the one person who identifies himself as a muslim, only then will you hate. May Allah guide those who are sincere only.


Your faith in the day of judgement, dying in disbelief is going to be nothing more than pretty, a day no one will care about anyone else other than themselves. Not a single soul will care if you get thrown into hellfire, everyone is busy with their own judgement.
And by Allah SWT, Allah has promised he will punish the kafirs like you, and especially the ignorant people like you. You know enough about the religion to not be able escape his punishment.

__________________________________________________ ____________________________________

"Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."" Sahih Al-bukhari and Sahih Muslim Source: http://sunnah.com/bukhari/2/18

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Sahih al-Bukhari 392

Narrated Maimun bin Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have." Sahih al-Bukhari 393

"...And to Allah belongs [all] honor, and to His Messenger, and to the believers, but the hypocrites do not know." 63:8

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) may Allah be merciful to him said in the book As-Sāram Al-Maslūl ‘Alā Shātim Ar-Rasūl 368-369

"Because the one
who merely apostates; we only kill him for his changing his religion, then if he returns to
the true religion,then that which permits his blood is removed, just as that which
permits the blood of the original Kāfir is removed by him entering Islām.”

]Ibn Hajar may allah extend his mercy to him said

I“And also the permissibility of the blood of a Thimmī is a common misconception
due to the existence of the disbelief (Kufr) which is what permits the blood. But the
tribute (Thimmah) is a preventative covenant (‘Ahd), which stops the killing, while the
grounds (i.e. for the permissibility of his blood) would still exist (i.e. his Kufr).” “Fat’h Al-Bārī ”, Vol. 12/326

The ignorant people like you do not understand that the spreading of the message of Islam is a far greater reward than killing innocent life as such gives you nothing. The point is to do dawah, to save people not slay them. But if it's justified in Jihaad, and they are attacking, there is no protection on their blood as if it were on a muslim.

[Reepicheep]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Blackbeard wrote: The point is to do dawah, to save people not slay them. But if it's justified in Jihaad, and they are attacking, there is no protection on their blood as if it were on a muslim.

I'm confused. Why are you suddenly mentioning Jihaad?

Previously, you claimed that, as a Muslim, you have the right to murder any non-Muslim anywhere on Earth who hasn't paid the Jizya tax. Now, you are claiming that the murder of non-Muslims is only permissible if Jihaad is declared and the non-Muslims are attacking Muslims.

I assume, then, that you denounce as evil your previous claim that a Muslim can walk down the streets of Toronto with a chainsaw and randomly kill non-Muslims? Or are you claiming that, because Canadian non-Muslims haven't paid the Jizya tax they are, by definition, at war with Islam, the rules of Jihaad apply, and all non-Muslim Canadians must be hunted down and slaughtered in the name of Allah the Compassionate the Merciful???

[Blackbeard]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Blackbeard wrote: The point is to do dawah, to save people not slay them. But if it's justified in Jihaad, and they are attacking, there is no protection on their blood as if it were on a muslim.

I'm confused. Why are you suddenly mentioning Jihaad?

Previously, you claimed that, as a Muslim, you have the right to murder any non-Muslim anywhere on Earth who hasn't paid the Jizya tax. Now, you are claiming that the murder of non-Muslims is only permissible if Jihaad is declared and the non-Muslims are attacking Muslims.

I assume, then, that you denounce as evil your previous claim that a Muslim can walk down the streets of Toronto with a chainsaw and randomly kill non-Muslims? Or are you claiming that, because Canadian non-Muslims haven't paid the Jizya tax they are, by definition, at war with Islam, the rules of Jihaad apply, and all non-Muslim Canadians must be hunted down and slaughtered in the name of Allah the Compassionate the Merciful???

sigh read the quotes I linked.


Also things changed in this time and age, muslims and kafirs live together under democracy laws. back in the days muslims lived under sharia which does not see the non-muslims blood as protected unless they have a treaty.

There is 2 different things but almost the same thing. In west, no matter if you are a muslim, hindu, jew, christian the law of murder is still there and killing will get you jailed. in a muslim state, the kafir and the muslim free mix and you cannot kill the kafir because his blood is protected.

i dont seee how it can be so hard to understand.

[Sfe995]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Google only tells you if you ask.

Some girls in the west spend most of their time finding or keeping a BF. Some might be too much into football or music. No Muslim in their small town. Some will be lucky to accidentally add Muslims like Adnan Rashid of fb. Others grew up hearing filthy language from their drunk dad about Islam and Muslims. Don't you think chance and opportunity can be a factor.

The question is what if someone says it is not fair that some people get to do whatever they want and have a chance of going to Jannah?

And saying that it is not fair that someone who is of this category can do wrong things and be better than/in the same position as a muslim sinner because a muslim sinner KNOWS he is doing wrong but someone of this category does not know?

I doubt that everyone in pornography for example has heard of Islam, what if someone asks is it fair that these people are allowed to do that and then go to Jannah?

What if a Muslim is jealous of these people and wish he had never heard the true message of Islam?

[Reepicheep]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

Blackbeard wrote: i dont seee how it can be so hard to understand

I now think I understand you perfectly.

You are saying that, as a Muslim living in this day and age, you can murder all the non-Muslims you want, and so long as none of the non-Muslims have paid the Jizya tax, you have not committed a sin.

For example, you could take a chainsaw and cut of the heads of a thousand, or a million, or a billion non-Muslims, and face no consequences whatsoever on the Day of Judgement. Allah (according to you) is totally indifferent about the lives of non-Muslims, and doesn't care one way or the other if they are murdered by Muslims.

If, however, you deliberately kick a kitten for no good reason, then on the Day of Judgment you could possibly face eternal damnation, because (again according to you) Allah cares more about a single kitten, or a single mouse, or a single insect, than he cares about all the tens of billions of non-Muslims who have lived, are currently alive, or who will be born in the future.

*************

I repeat my statement that, because of your words, I reject Islam as being a false religion and will continue to live my life as a Christian, Furthermore, according to my understanding of Sharia (and, again, someone please correct me if I am wrong), your eternal fate now depends on whether you are telling the truth when you say that, to Allah, the killing of the smallest insect is of more concern than the murders of a thousand, or a million, or a billion non-Jizya paying non-Muslims who are killed by Muslims.

[Blackbeard]

Re: Those who have not heard of Islam or have not heard of it properly.

....

I had a hunch you were a christian, a very ignorant mushrik kafir. As I said, Allah does not need you, we do not need you rather you need Allah, and when you ask Fiqh issues like this, a muslim cannot lie.

O' hypocrite mushrik do you not know that the blood of the infidel is permissible in the gospels and the torah? It's the stance which Allah SWT has had with the kafir in his religion, while the believer would be given every excuse there is before making his blood permissible. difference is that we do not go astray, we do not innovate in religion and we do not cherry pick.

The animals are worshippers of Allah. They have no free will, it's not gifted to them. If you kill it for no reason, it will strike you back on the judgement day. The kafir however who has neglected Allah does not have the blood protected due to different issues. I have explained this to you 3 times but you are beyond retarded to understand. I explained to you how it doesn't mean that one goes and kills kafirs without justification. If this happened in a islamic state, someone going to a country with a treaty and he slained kafirs, the ameer would take care of that person.

Times have changed, simply the rulings we have, what has been written were during the times of Khilafa, were rules were different. They are meant for rulers muslim rulers to rule by, not myself. The west has laws inplace for murder. A khilafa has punishment for murdering a muslim or a dhimmi (christians who live there) with no justification. HOWEVER since the other nations surrounding the caliphate are hostile by default, it makes their blood permissible and if they have no treaty with the muslims, Jihaad can be issued upon them, fighting and killing them is allowed to conquer.

This has always been like this in the religion of Allah in the torah, gospels and the Quran. The only thing wrong is your thick head which cannot comprehend this, you and your kind are beyond misguided. The whole christianity is based on major kufr (major disbelief). For you have disbelieved in what Allah has revealed, made whats impermissible as permissible and let the men change the religion to their liking. It doesn't surprise me, the IQ of christians are less than a normal person. The atheists have more sense than you, at least I enjoy discussing with them since they can use their brains.

Your pervert and child abusing priests have made you involuntary insult your own Father (god). We follow his commands, the same commands as the children of Israel but you have been tricked to believe that these are vile, inhumane and devilish commands. The convenant of Allah is that by entering faith, you're blood is impermissible, by breaking the covenant you get into a state of disbelief and your blood is not protected anymore. The commands of the bible are even harsher.

That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Chronicles 15:13

"If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the LORD your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, by transgressing His covenant, 3and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, which I have not commanded, 4and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel 5then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to death" Deuteronomy 17:2-5

Here he commands that a whole city who commits idolatry and everyone in it should be utterly destroyed

If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to live in, anyone saying that 13some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the inhabitants of their city, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods ' (whom you have not known), 14then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it and all that is in it and its cattle with the edge of the sword

I can also play this game, obviously your God is soo peaceful according to you? have you never tought that maybe you guys aren't practicing it correctly? I mean don't blame us for doing something less worse than the quote I just linked lol. I mean your God even commanded the whole city to be destroyed, all booty put in the middle of the city and everything burnt to the ground so that the inhabitants and the city can never rise again.

I can really go on and show you how "peaceful" is according to your standard. You're the normal standard christian kafir troll who knows nothing about a religion he claims to follow. Somehow I hope you die in that state so Jesus, the one you worshiped can be a witness against you infront of Allah. I say this because you twist everything I say, completely ignoring I said it needs justification for it to be in the way of Allah. Sigh....