Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

    Originally posted by Taboo View Post
    You, or they, are taking this fatwa out of context. .
    Plainly not me, I'm just quoting. Why don't you correct him in that thread?

    From the outside, it feels like there is no quality control going on in islam. No one is in charge. You can find a scholar to say pretty much anything you want. Or just quote a couple of verses yourself.

    You can criticise me for not knowing the difference but neither do most Muslims know the difference. And frankly, their confusion matters a lot more than mine.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

      Originally posted by Taboo View Post
      Aside from the personal opinion of the shaykh written here, which all shaykhs have opinions, I do not see how these conditions are humiliating. They serve only to separate the muslims from the nonmuslims so that they can be identified, and to keep the nonmuslims from bearing arms which poses a danger to muslim armies because at that time they had just finished fighting a war with these people. .
      You don't find this offensive? So let me ask you then - imagine you live in the US (perhaps you do) - would you be happy to obey the following rules. Let's call it the Pact of Uncle Joe:

      1. You may not carry arms
      2. You have to give up your seat to a non Muslim on the train or bus
      3. Your house may not be larger than your non Muslim neighbours
      4. You can't talk about Islam in public
      5. You have to let non Muslim travellers stay in your house for a few days if they want to
      6. You can't build any more mosques
      7. You have to wear your hair and dress in a prescribed manner not of your choosing
      8. You can drive a car, but you have to take the seats out
      9. You pay a special Muslim tax but you don't know what non Muslims pay because it's their choice

      In return, you will be safe from invasion/being attacked.

      How does that sound? You want to go for it?

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

        Originally posted by tomas View Post
        one of the most common complaints by dhimmis related to the fact that, where a case involved both a non-Muslim and a Muslim, it would have to be tried in a Muslim court, which would, allegedly, systematically favour Muslims.

        Also, as far as I know (but I honestly am not sure about this), a non-Muslim's testimony against a Muslim could not be upheld in court.

        There are many practical reasons (beyond purely religious ones) why a dhimmi would convert to Islam. Being part of the ruling group is always quite handy in life.
        In a case brought before a Judge involving a Jew and Ali [May Allah be pleased with him], ruler of the Muslims,Companion of the Prophet :saw: ,and his son in law - the ruling went against him in favour of the Jew.

        How often do you find a thing like that ever happening, and i can sure as hell bet in that time period, where Rulers had absolute authority and could pretty much do as they please, for a judgement to go against him, would be unheard of.

        That is the justice of Islam.
        Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

        How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

        Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

          Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
          If you look through the thread you will see that several members are arguing that Dzhokhar should not be executed because he didn't kill Muslims. If he had killed Muslims, he would be liable for the death penalty. For instance this from depassage:

          "A M

          This would mean that non Muslims are treated as of lesser importance under Shariah law, with limited rights compared to non Muslims.

          Depassage is not a scholar (as far as I know) and nor are virtually all the members of this forum. I don't know who has it right because I'm not even a Muslim, let alone a scholar. But the fact is that depassage is very far from unusual in his views. There seems to be no mechanism within islam to stop people like depassage from saying what he does (assuming he's wrong).

          If you look at the argument on slavery between Yassine and Darul Ilm (who are both well read) they both gave convincing references. As a non expert - whether you were Muslim or not - it was frankly impossible to say who was right, who was wrong. Yet the difference in their view was so great you couldn't call it the same religion.

          As it stands, Muslim debaters get to have it both ways. The so called 'modernisers' or 'moderates' can argue that Islam is being unfairly portrayed as harsh. While the 'hardliners' or 'radicals' argue in the direction of Isis, that pretty much any level of brutality is justified against non Muslims. Ironically they say moire extreme things about Islam than the average islamaphobe - the only difference being that they think such behaviour is a good thing, not a bad thing.

          It's incredible that such massive disagreements are still going on with no sign of an outcome.

          Just because a Muslim may not be killed, does not mean that person will get off lightly in regards to murdering a Non Muslim under the protection of the islamic state - which in itself is a very major sin,to the extent the Prophet :saw: said such a person would not even smell the fragrance of paradise.
          Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

          How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

          Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

            Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
            If you look through the thread you will see that several members are arguing that Dzhokhar should not be executed because he didn't kill Muslims. If he had killed Muslims, he would be liable for the death penalty. For instance this from depassage:

            "A M

            This would mean that non Muslims are treated as of lesser importance under Shariah law, with limited rights compared to non Muslims.

            Depassage is not a scholar (as far as I know)
            http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-t...on-muslim.html
            :GB_bonesrock:
            And all the heavens go their way.... And only change is here to stay...

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

              Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
              You don't find this offensive? So let me ask you then - imagine you live in the US (perhaps you do) - would you be happy to obey the following rules. Let's call it the Pact of Uncle Joe:

              1. You may not carry arms
              2. You have to give up your seat to a non Muslim on the train or bus
              3. Your house may not be larger than your non Muslim neighbours
              4. You can't talk about Islam in public
              5. You have to let non Muslim travellers stay in your house for a few days if they want to
              6. You can't build any more mosques
              7. You have to wear your hair and dress in a prescribed manner not of your choosing
              8. You can drive a car, but you have to take the seats out
              9. You pay a special Muslim tax but you don't know what non Muslims pay because it's their choice

              In return, you will be safe from invasion/being attacked.

              How does that sound? You want to go for it?
              This doesnt apply because Muslims are the chosen people of the One who created the earth, and the entire earth belongs to Him. Islamic laws are never unfair and I thought this before I was even muslim. God's people always have the most responsibility in the earth. Unfair does not mean "equal", and equity is not equality.

              Anyway it doesn't matter, because even if they ended up passing these laws I could just go somewhere else. Plenty of fish (countries) in the sea, so to speak.


              And I would like the evidence that nonmuslim houses could not be larger. The hadiths that I read say they cannot be on top of each other, not that they are restricted in size. There were nonmuslims with humongous palace-sized villas in makkah, and the Prophet(as) did not take their property away from them (which is ironically what the nonmuslims did to muslims).

              You are also warping #5. In islam people have the right to stay in any empty houses while traveling, this was the law of the land. Houses were even built specifically for travelers along the roads.

              You warped #7 as well. The nonmuslims did wear their hair and body in the manner of their choosing. They wore their traditional dress as they had always done, it was the muslims who were told to go out of their way to dress differently than them and then the nonmuslims were ordered not to copy the muslim's new style.

              #8 Was referring to the war saddles. there were hundreds of nonmuslim traders who used padding for their riding camels. You should not interpret hadith because you do not speak arabic and you are not a scholar. You are deliberately taking things out of context.

              #9, as hadith have proven whether you reject it or not, is incorrect. The nonmuslims paid a jizya while the muslims paid the 2.5% zakaat tax and any other taxes required on top of that. The nonmuslims were not required to pay both. However they both ended up paying taxes and this is not unfair nor is it unjust. People don't get to live under the protection of a country for free no matter how "offensive" you find it. * and on top of this, if they didn't like it, they were always free to leave. They were not prisoners of war, they were freemen paying tax to live in a country. That's all.
              Last edited by Taboo; 21-05-15, 04:55 AM.
              I want your reflections on THIS Thread, please post!
              Abandon rebellion, for knowledge is a light - And the light of Allah is not bestowed upon a rebel." [video]

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                Plainly not me, I'm just quoting. Why don't you correct him in that thread?

                From the outside, it feels like there is no quality control going on in islam. No one is in charge. You can find a scholar to say pretty much anything you want. Or just quote a couple of verses yourself.

                You can criticise me for not knowing the difference but neither do most Muslims know the difference. And frankly, their confusion matters a lot more than mine.
                That is because you are on the outside. From inside we see these people as the frayed fringes of a blanket, far away from the center which is where most of the muslim population is. In islam, Allah is in charge. Allah told the prophet (as) to tell us to stick to the jamah (majority, largest group) to stay on the right path. He called the scholars the 'successors of the prophets' (as) and ordered us to respect them.

                You're right, we don't have popes or priests or any type of religious hierarchy - everyone is on equal footing. this is because these positions of reverence don't even exist in islam, no human is revered more than the prophets (as) and they are all gone. The highest status anyone can achieve is scholar or martyr, and even then, they are still just normal human beings. they are not holy or worshipped. The scholars are respected because of their dedication and wisdom, not just anyone is intelligent enough to be a scholar of islam, it takes decades and many die before even completing their training.

                there are fringe groups that worship humans and according to islam they are apostates and that is how the majority (muslims) treats them, as idol worshippers. which is why muslims will never get along with these fringe groups and why there is constant fighting between muslims and them. but they are not large groups like the media tries to say.

                You can find a shaykh (not scholar) to say pretty much anything you want them to say, but that doesn't make them correct. many old men call themselves scholars while they are not, and don't even have proper education. the prophet(as) told us to follow the majority opinion, and that is what most muslims do. only the fatwa-shoppers go to the off-the-wall fatwa generators and call them "scholars".

                Islam is not christianity or judaism and the texts clearly forbid wandering and are very clear about their literal meaning. Allegories, for example, are clearly marked in quran and literal orders and stories are also clearly marked. The meaning behind some can only be understood by the most intelligent people who know the most remote and unknown hadiths, but that does not make them open to interpretation. Muslims are forbidden from guessing and applying their own meanings, we are ordered to say "i dont know" when we don't know something. There is very little room for mistakes except to the most ignorant of people, or people who deliberately disobey the orders in the quran itself and try to warp the texts regardless of the warnings for doing so (deliberately warping the text or knowingly taking it out of context is automatic apostasy).

                Taking "islamic studies" in a nonmuslim college does not make one a scholar of islam. It doesnt even qualify them as a student of knowledge. two or even four years of vague studies is not enough to even scratch the surface of quran and hadith and fiqh and aqida. and unless the rest of the worlds scholars have come to the same or similar conclusions as them, their opinion is thrown out anyway. Sure, there are a handful of quacks, but the thousands of other scholars are whom most of the world's muslims take their religion from. it's always been this way and always will be.

                and the internet and television are bad representations of any group of people, because it's where the nuts and wackos collect because nobody in 'real life' will listen to their nonsense. tv gets them fame and on the internet nobody can stop their ridiculous theories. so you get the odd weirdo like irshad manji saying not praying and being a lesbian is okay, which the quran says it's not. But the rest of the 99.9% of the world's muslims pay people like this no mind at all.
                Last edited by Taboo; 21-05-15, 05:21 AM.
                I want your reflections on THIS Thread, please post!
                Abandon rebellion, for knowledge is a light - And the light of Allah is not bestowed upon a rebel." [video]

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                  Originally posted by Taboo View Post
                  This doesnt apply because Muslims are the chosen people of the One who created the earth, and the entire earth belongs to Him. Islamic laws are never unfair and I thought this before I was even muslim. God's people always have the most responsibility in the earth. Unfair does not mean "equal", and equity is not equality.

                  Anyway it doesn't matter, because even if they ended up passing these laws I could just go somewhere else. Plenty of fish (countries) in the sea, so to speak.
                  .
                  Obviously I modernised some of the laws - as not using a certain type of saddle wouldn't be much of a restriction in 21st century America.

                  The point is that such restrictions are not attractive and you say yourself you would simply move country if they were passed. So, let's not pretend that second citizen status is great for non Muslims - it isn't.

                  You might have reasonably argued that the Pact of Umar doesn't matter because it's probably a fake, written at least 100 years after Umar and possibly taken from the Justinian Codes and Sassanian laws (ie not even Muslim). But that would open up a can of worms about the historicity of many other issues.


                  Originally posted by Taboo View Post
                  And I would like the evidence that nonmuslim houses could not be larger. The hadiths that I read say they cannot be on top of each other, not that they are restricted in size. .
                  The translation I have says 'We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims' which is usually interpreted as meaning houses that are taller than their Muslim neighbours. I don't have the Arabic.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                    Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                    You might have reasonably argued that the Pact of Umar doesn't matter because it's probably a fake, written at least 100 years after Umar and possibly taken from the Justinian Codes and Sassanian laws (ie not even Muslim). But that would open up a can of worms about the historicity of many other issues.
                    Like I said, we aren't allowed to debate things we don't know about.
                    I want your reflections on THIS Thread, please post!
                    Abandon rebellion, for knowledge is a light - And the light of Allah is not bestowed upon a rebel." [video]

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                      Originally posted by Taboo View Post
                      Like I said, we aren't allowed to debate things we don't know about.
                      Taboo, I respect your faith and I also respect that you appear to be 'moderate'. (Sad that this word has been taken away and made to mean something deficient, something less than fully Muslim. Although really the ones who say this, the Isis fanboys, they are the real innovators, as they are reinventing Islam in order to behave in ways that never happened in the days of the Rashidun.)

                      However, non Muslims are free to consider possibilities that you can't. At a certain point you feel obliged to just stop. And that's why the study of Islamic history and affairs will always have gaps if it's reserved purely for Muslims.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                        Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                        Taboo, I respect your faith and I also respect that you appear to be 'moderate'. (Sad that this word has been taken away and made to mean something deficient, something less than fully Muslim. Although really the ones who say this, the Isis fanboys, they are the real innovators, as they are reinventing Islam in order to behave in ways that never happened in the days of the Rashidun.)

                        However, non Muslims are free to consider possibilities that you can't. At a certain point you feel obliged to just stop. And that's why the study of Islamic history and affairs will always have gaps if it's reserved purely for Muslims.
                        The prophet alayhi salam told us that moderation is islam itself and extremism is banned by Allah.. but the word 'moderate', at least in english, is now associated with western disbelief while still using the title of 'muslim'. similar to people who call themselves 'christian' but are actually agnostic or atheist.

                        In islam, it is completely forbidden to "guess" things about knowledge that we do not possess. This is what starts rumors and misunderstandings, and also leads people into making huge mistakes. This is a seed of "mob justice" as well.. one small rumor can cause a huge fire once it is spread.

                        We are not permitted to even go near something we have no knowledge on. We either gain knowledge on the subject, or keep our mouths shut if we don't feel like learning about it. Speaking about religious topics on which we have no knowledge can actually make us apostate, depending on what we are making things up about. And accidentally becoming a disbeliever is a huge deal to those who worship Allah.

                        There are no gaps because there are those people who dedicate themselves to studying the past. But even they are not allowed to make up facts that aren't there or have no evidence to back them up. They are careful about making claims without first proving them, and any man of science does this, not just religious sciences.
                        I want your reflections on THIS Thread, please post!
                        Abandon rebellion, for knowledge is a light - And the light of Allah is not bestowed upon a rebel." [video]

                        Comment

                        Collapse

                        Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                        Working...
                        X