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  • Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

    QUESTION:

    Originally posted by christianman View Post
    Having read some of the posts, i am interested by peoples opinion. I know this may seem a generalisation and is probably more complex but in the eyes of muslims are non muslims less than them, for want of a better phrase. Not just spiritually but in matters of everyday life, work etc.


    ANSWER:


    And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it[I]And never would We punish until We sent a messenger[/I]." (17:15)
    * The Prophet said: "By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire." [Muslim #153]
    => Meaning, only those among the non-muslims who heard of the Prophet (pbuh) & knew his Message will be liable to Punishment if they don't believe. (this excluding children who have yet to reach the age of puberty & the insane until they regain their senses, both of which are not punishable)


    Every child is born in the state of Fitrah (equal among all mankind)Humans are equal, like a set of a tooth-comb, there is no superiority of the arabs among them over the non-arabs, or the whites among them over the blacks except by piety" the Prophet (pbuh).
    3. The essential honour/dignity of members of Mankind: "Verily we have honoured/dignified the Children of Adam (Mankind).And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ." (11:117)
    2. That this divine decree must be accepted in submission to God's Will: "And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?" (10:99) ; "So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder. You are not a dictator over them." (88:21-22)
    3. That this decree must also extends to our practice, not just our belief: "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) ; "And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another." (17:15)
    2. Only God has the final say between Muslims & Non-Muslims & that is beyond the Human's scope: "Allah will judge between you on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which you used to differ.Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity." (60:8)
    2. Mercy: "He will enter Heaven only he who possesses Mercy. It is not the mercy that one has for his friend, but the Mercy for all mankind.They have the same rights as we do, & the same dues as we do" Prophet Muhammad.



  • #2
    Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

    JazakAllah khair. Informative and detailed post.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

      Good post.

      Just some clarification

      1. What prevents the Muslim rulers from imposing huge jizyah on the dhimmis. Or imposing other taxes in another names on these people. Infact, historically it can be seen that Non Muslims were forced to give a lot of money as tax to feed the elite in Muslim ruling community. Infact, it is recorded that many Non Muslims converted to Islam just to avoid paying this.

      2. This is not exactly related to this. But since you have used words Like "majority opinion" and opinion of various schools of thought. Is there anything at all in Islam that cannot be justified by taking some school of thoughts opinion or the opinion of some scholar of any school of thought.

      It increasingly looks like If someone want to rape/murder his neighbor. He just can go do the act. Come back. Take the various Islamic historical books on fatwas or historical incidents, find some obscure/minority opinion by some obscure scholar and then declare that his action is halal.

      This is exactly what is going on in case of terrorists like daesh, AQ, all other Islamic groups/sects and even Muslim rulers. What everyone is doing is Halal because some scholar of some thought of school of some era (present or past) has given a fatwa.

      Infact there is an ISIS wannabe here in Current Events section who says "You can poison your neighbor after calling him to dinner at your place". There was another person who said that some scholar has given a fatwa in the past that "You can forcefully have sex with your wife by tying her up if she does not consent". These are individual example. The Massacre, stealing, enslaving and raping of Yazidhis in Iraq happened because of this application on a larger scale.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

        without a doubt the most informative post i have read on this forum. Many thanks.

        M

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

          Hi Nabeel,

          you have successfully got me pondering hospitality and the relationship between Guest and Host.

          " What prevents the Muslim rulers from imposing huge jizyah on the dhimmis"

          It may well be that in this day and age a tit for tat scenario might play itself out.

          The rest of your post i can't comment on as I am lacking in knowledge.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

            Originally posted by YassineB View Post
            The Jizyah is a very tiny tax, far lesser than any tax in the world today, or ever. & certainly, in most cases, significantly less than the Zakat which muslims have to pay. (claiming the opposite is an ignorant misconception)
            .
            The level of the Jizyah was not fixed and varied greatly over time. It is wholly unproven that dhimmis paid less tax overall than Muslims - and in fact it defies credulity.

            Tax rates were not well recorded, but there is ample evidence from many periods that non Muslims paid more. This excess tax in itself became a big reason to convert.

            I also don't think you can compare past tax rates with today because the size of the state has increased so greatly. As far as the military goes, just 2% of UK state spending goes on defence. Which makes it a very small component of total taxation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

              As-Salamo'alaykom,


              Originally posted by nabeel_shah_1 View Post
              Good post.
              Thank you :)

              1. What prevents the Muslim rulers from imposing huge jizyah on the dhimmis. Or imposing other taxes in another names on these people
              — There is a lot of difference of opinion about this, but according to the majority opinion, the ruler has the right to raise or lower the amount of Jizyah from its standards if needed, under 4 guidelines:
              1. 'Adalah = Fairness: the tax should not be above what a person can afford.
              2. Rifq' = Leniency.
              3. Yaq'een = Certitude.
              4. Iq'tisad = Economisation

              — The Jizyah Tax is a tax aimed at Defence & Security purposes, thus, in a state of war, or in times of chaos, the ruler can impose higher taxes on the dhimmis, unless they too participate in the protection of their own, in which case the tax shall be cancelled. In fact, there is also a difference of opinion on wether the Jizyah Tax can be raised up to Zakat rates, if needed, which is a considerably significant raise.
              — To illustrate the difference, if the Zakat Tax was applied in the US it would easily exceed the $4,000bn or $5,000bn marks. In contrast, if the Jizyah Tax (the standard higher formula) was applied in the US it would hardly exceed the $25bn mark, which makes it ~200 times lesser than Zakat!!!

              — Finally, the dhimmis, even upon paying such low taxes, enjoy the same rights to Bayt al-Mal (the Treasury) as muslims do. Muslims are obligate to accommodate the dhimmis with bridges, roads, water sources. . . if Muslims are accommodated as well. Unfortunately for westerners, Tolerance is one aspect of Islam (among many) they can't possibly hope to attain, let alone surpass, despite their constant ignorant propaganda & supremacy trying to believe the opposite. Christians & Jews (& other religions) are allowed full freedom of religion, in both belief & practice in Islam. In western secular laws, Christians, Jews, Muslims. . . are only allowed freedom of religion in belief, while practice is restricted, that is religious people have to follow the law of the land, even if they mostly go against their own beliefs.

              Infact, historically it can be seen that Non Muslims were forced to give a lot of money as tax to feed the elite in Muslim ruling community. Infact, it is recorded that many Non Muslims converted to Islam just to avoid paying this.
              — This is so wrong on so many levels, & quite unhistorical. This is more like ignorant propaganda!
              — Overall, the Jizyah Tax, on virtually all accounts, is insignificant compared to Zakat.
              — The only tax which is significant enough to make any difference is the Kharaj Tax, which is imposed on Muslims & Non-muslims alike (according to the majority opinion), on profitable state land, owned & exploited by Non-muslims (or Muslims). This tax can go from insignificant amounts (~$15 per year) to significant portions of the harvest (up to 1/3). The majority opinion (Hanafi, Shafi'i) is that this tax applied for Muslims & Non-muslims alike, only Muslims have to pay an additional 10% of 'Ushur on the land. The minority opinion (Maliki) is that this tax only applies for Non-muslims, & for Muslims, they only have to pay the 'Ushur. If these Non-muslims converted to Islam, they'd just end up paying an additional 10%, which defeats the whole ignorant propaganda!
              — People don't convert to other religions because of taxes! Are their religions (Christianity, Judaism . . .) so strikingly cheap that they would exchange it for a mere amount of money?!! The Christians who attempt to spread such propaganda are just desperate to tarnish the value of their own religion just to get somehow to Islam. They tried spreading the rumour that Islam spread by the sword, & when it didn't work, they are trying to make up new types of ignorant propaganda.
              — Islamic History, wal-Hamdulliah, is clean & beautiful, unlike the tarnished History of other religions. Sure, there has been many wars & many despotic rulers, who were tyrannical against Muslims & Non-muslims alike, but overall, the History of Islam is, by far, the most clean & most humane History out there, filled with Justice, Tolerance, Knowledge. . . the kind of which the West today has yet to reach.

              2. This is not exactly related to this. But since you have used words Like "majority opinion" and opinion of various schools of thought. Is there anything at all in Islam that cannot be justified by taking some school of thoughts opinion or the opinion of some scholar of any school of thought.
              — I used "majority opinion" once, & in that case I meant: the Hanafi + Maliki position.

              — I wrote something about this on the Forum, to summarise:

              => In principal, a muslim should follow directly the Prophet (pbuh) (as he is the ultimate authority) & should deduce Rulings directly from the Qur'an & the Sunnah. However, doing so would require a great amount of knowledge & a comprehensive expertise on many many fields of Islamic Tradition, the Scholars throughout the History of Islam have thus agreed to allow themselves to guide non-scholars & help them understand the Islamic Tradition until they become sufficiently aware of it. & so they divide muslim practitioners into 3 Categories, following the saying Imam 'Ali: "People are three kinds: the knowledgeable, the student of knowledge, and the ignorant rest"

              I. Muq'allid = the Ignorant (common people): an imitator who has no (or little) basis in any of the Islamic Sciences, & therefore has no valid opinion of his own, & therefore is not allowed to give an opinion whatsoever about anything in the Islamic Tradition, & if he does, it's immediately rejected. & that is the case of the overwhelming majority of muslims today. A Muq'allid, & since he does not have the essential requirements to understand Rulings, he may follow any scholar he choses, & may also follow different traditions. However, this state of practitioner is only allowed as Darura, meaning: it's a necessity & it is only allowed for new converts & the ignorants of the mass. A partitioner must learn his Tradition anyway he can, & in the mean time, until he learns the basics, he is allowed to be a Muq'allid. & I mean by basis: the Ma'lum Mina Deen.

              II. Muttabi = Student of Knowldge: a student of knowledge who is currently learning the Islamic Tradition (through a valid Sanad); someone who has some understanding of the Islamic Tradition, he must therefore chose only one Madhab (one School of Thought, among the many) & has no right to mix Rulings between Madahib. Because Mixing Madahib (Talfiq') is really not allowed unless under these three conditions:
              1. No Mixing in al-Ma'lum Mina Deen (in the Basics).
              2. No Mixing in Void Rulings (such as mixing marriage according to the Hanafis / Shafiis / Malikis in regards to the Wali / the Dower / the Witnesses)
              3. No Mixing in the Universals (from Usul (Legal Theory), which he has to know beforehand)

              III. Mujtahid = the Knowledgeable: a scholar of knowledge, someone with the required knowledge to understand & make Rulings.

              It increasingly looks like If someone want to rape/murder his neighbor. He just can go do the act. Come back. Take the various Islamic historical books on fatwas or historical incidents, find some obscure/minority opinion by some obscure scholar and then declare that his action is halal.
              — One, rape is categorically prohibited in Shari'a, & is severely punishable, by:
              > Stoning: if the rapist is married.
              > Death: if the rapist isn't married & used a weapon (knife or such) to force his victim.
              > Severing the hand & feet: if the rapist isn't married & threaten the victim to force him/her.
              > 100 lashes + prison/exile for 1 year (or more): if the rapist isn't married & didn't use a weapon to force his/her victim.

              — Two, it's prohibited for Muq'allid (those among the common people) to apply rulings on issues as he see it, that's the job of the scholars. Raay (legal opinion as a juridic discretion) can be either binding or non-binding. & it can also be many different types, the most common are the Muwdu’i kind: concerning a substantive or hypothetical matter. So, the Legal Opinion here comprise 3 elements:
              I— Asl = Source: from the 6 sources of Shari’a: Qur’an, Hadith, Consensus, Qyas (Analogy), Reason & Norms.
              II— Nazila = Issue: the matter in question.
              III— Hukm = Ruling, in this case can be either of the following:
              1. Wajib = Obligatory.
              2. Mandub = Recommended.
              3. Mubah = Permissible.
              4. Makruh = Discouraged.
              5. Mahthur = Prohibited.
              => Going from the Source to the Issue, to the Ruling requires an extensive understanding of the Tradition, which only a scholar is capable of.

              => If you don't know, ASK, don't make up your own Deen because it goes with your caprice!

              This is exactly what is going on in case of terrorists like daesh, AQ, all other Islamic groups/sects and even Muslim rulers. What everyone is doing is Halal because some scholar of some thought of school of some era (present or past) has given a fatwa.
              — Applying Shari'a Law is no job of the ordinary people, it's the Job of licensed Jurists appointed as Judges by legitimate Rulers. Anything else is not permissible.

              Infact there is an ISIS wannabe here in Current Events section who says "You can poison your neighbor after calling him to dinner at your place". There was another person who said that some scholar has given a fatwa in the past that "You can forcefully have sex with your wife by tying her up if she does not consent". These are individual example. The Massacre, stealing, enslaving and raping of Yazidhis in Iraq happened because of this application on a larger scale.
              — No such thing as poisoning your neighbour, that's Murder by both 'Amd & 'Udwan which necessitate death penalty by consensus.

              — The fatwa about forcefully having sex with the wife must've concerned a special situation, otherwise it would go against the clear decree of the Qur'an, that if the wife refuses to have sex without just cause (rebelliousness) the husband may resort to first advise her (for a month or so), then leave her bed (for less than a month), then strike her lightly (such as with a tooth brush) if divorce is the only other alternative. If all this doesn't work, & they still wish to continue the marriage, then the couple is advised to bring up to judges to decide if the marriage should dissolved or not.

              — The massacre, stealing, enslaving & raping is categorically prohibited in Islam, & are severely punishable in Shari'a. If these people are doing such things, they are clearly going against Islam in all respects.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                The status of non Muslims in Muslim majority lands varies throughout history.

                During the 16th century Pierre Belon, a french explorer, writer and diplomat among others, published a work known as Otherwise known as Observations.

                In 1546, Pierre Belon - already a naturalist of some renown - travelled to Constantinople in the entourage of the French Ambassador to Suleiman the Magnificent. En route, he visited Venice, Ragusa, Corfu and Crete, and over the next two years travelled throughout the Ottoman domains, - to Egypt, Anatolia, Arabia, and the Holy Land - returning to France in 1549. Wherever he went, Belon described plants, birds, mammals and fish, and recorded the customs of the inhabitants - what they ate, how they reared their children - collecting information on almost every aspect of the lands through which he passes. He did not rely on hearsay, on previous accounts, or on authority: what we have are his own observations, and the result of assiduous questioning and meticulous recording. His Observations, 'written in our ordinary French tongue', were published in 1553. In April 1564, Pierre Belon was murdered by persons unknown while crossing the Bois de Boulogne.

                http://www.amazon.com/Travels-Levant.../dp/1843821966


                Observations is considered to be a very important piece of literature. Observations includes first hand accounts of a man traveling through the Ottoman Empire. In his work Observations Belon talks about how Turkish domination had not deeply changed the culture of the conquered nations and was not tyrannical, and he depicts the Turks as a civilized people, giving support to the politics of the French government,

                more,

                https://books.google.com/books?id=R-...0belon&f=false
                Last edited by Isa007; 14-05-15, 06:13 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                  The great emperor of the Turkes doth with as great devotion as any prince in the world honour and observe the religion by him received from his auncestours, and yet detesteth hee not the straunge religions of others; but to the contrarie permitteth every man to lfie according to his conscience;yea and that more is, neere unto his pallace at Pera, suffereth four divers religons, viz. That of the Jews, that of the Christians, that of the Gecians, and that of the Mohametanes,
                  -Jean Bodin

                  more,


                  [url]https://books.google.com/books?id=3uJzjatjTL4C&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Jean+B odin+on+the+ottoman+empire&source=bl&ots=SPBZVeflN d&sig=AchKvv35iim0Nr6SHXnLaa3FKio&hl=en&sa=X&ei=35 VKVfqOM6HLsATTxIDgCA&

                  The French scholar Jean Bodin wrote positively of the early days of the Ottoman Empire.

                  Some background on Bodin,

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bodin

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                    Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                    The level of the Jizyah was not fixed and varied greatly over time. It is wholly unproven that dhimmis paid less tax overall than Muslims - and in fact it defies credulity.
                    What prevents the Muslim rulers from imposing huge jizyah on the dhimmis. Or imposing other taxes in another names on these people.
                    Infact, historically it can be seen that Non Muslims were forced to give a lot of money as tax to feed the elite in Muslim ruling community. Infact, it is recorded that many Non Muslims converted to Islam just to avoid paying this.
                    Tax rates were not well recorded, but there is ample evidence from many periods that non Muslims paid more.
                    It is wholly unproven that dhimmis paid less tax overall than Muslims", "there is ample evidence from many periods that non Muslims paid more
                    This excess tax in itself became a big reason to convert.
                    I also don't think you can compare past tax rates with today because the size of the state has increased so greatly. As far as the military goes, just 2% of UK state spending goes on defence. Which makes it a very small component of total taxation.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                      Originally posted by YassineB View Post

                      — Saying things like: "It is wholly unproven that dhimmis paid less tax overall than Muslims", "there is ample evidence from many periods that non Muslims paid more" just shows your ignorance of Islamic History, which is not necessarily a bad thing, most people are too., particularly, western 'historians' (some of them aren't though).
                      — In fact, there is ample evidence of the opposite. First, hundreds of dhimmi communities within the Islamic World didn't even pay the Jizyah nor the Kharaj, for they agreed to protect themselves, or help muslims protect them. Second, Shari'a is incompatible with such claims, & we know Shari'a was always in place, unless it wasn't (occasionally) & in which case, Muslims & Non-muslims suffer alike.Third, there is in fact ample evidence to support that Muslims paid, overall, significantly more taxes than Non-muslims, to the point where Muslims went on protests & even riots against some dhimmi communities (namely in Egypt & Syria) for amassing huge sums of wealth & not paying any taxes, or insignificant taxes, & these things are well known in History..
                      Welcome back Yassine. Can you give specific references or examples?

                      Think about it. In the first Muslim conquests, the percentage of Muslim conquerors in the new territories was tiny. Just the army and their followers, even assuming they all stayed in the new country. It can't have been more than 1% - similar perhaps to the Norman overlords in post-Hastings Britain.

                      That would mean that less than 1% of the population were paying virtually all the tax to support the state. I don't think so!

                      And just as bizarrely, in other eras you would find countries where nearly 100% of the population were Muslim, so the reverse would happen. The state would be fabulously more wealthy (in comparison).

                      This does not make sense. What evidence do you have for taxation levels in specific Muslim countries through the ages?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                        Originally posted by TCKMuslima View Post
                        JazakAllah khair. Informative and detailed post.
                        By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire."
                        [Muslim #153]
                        http://sunnah.com/muslim/1/293Every child is born in the state of Fitrahhttp://sunnah.com/muslim/46/36
                        http://sunnah.com/abudawud/42/121Humans are equal, like a set of a tooth-comb, there is no superiority of the arabs among them over the non-arabs, or the whites among them over the blacks except by piety".
                        [Ahmad #22978]
                        http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/h...=2553&sid=3672
                        http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...had=22978#docu


                        * The Prophet (pbuh): "He will enter Heaven only he who possesses Mercy. It is not the mercy that one has for his friend, but the Mercy for all mankind.http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...no=87&ID=13822


                        * The Prophet (pbuh) said: "They have the same rights as we do, and the same dues as we do".
                        http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...d=12&startno=4
                        http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra..._no=15&ID=6612

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                          Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                          Welcome back Yassine.
                          Can you give specific references or examples?
                          Think about it. In the first Muslim conquests, the percentage of Muslim conquerors in the new territories was tiny. Just the army and their followers, even assuming they all stayed in the new country. It can't have been more than 1% - similar perhaps to the Norman overlords in post-Hastings Britain.

                          That would mean that less than 1% of the population were paying virtually all the tax to support the state. I don't think so!
                          the main income of Taxes was from the Spoils of War
                          And just as bizarrely, in other eras you would find countries where nearly 100% of the population were Muslim, so the reverse would happen. The state would be fabulously more wealthy (in comparison).
                          This does not make sense. What evidence do you have for taxation levels in specific Muslim countries through the ages?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                            alhamdulillah glad you're back akhi :-)

                            may Allah shower you with tremendous blessings and 'ilm.
                            :GB_bonesrock:
                            And all the heavens go their way.... And only change is here to stay...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Status of Non-Muslims In Islam.

                              akhi can you please explain the concept of "al walaa wal baraa"
                              (usually mostly salafis explain this, I wanna know what the four madhabs stance).

                              some ppl believe that due to this ^^ that means there is no humanity for kuffar, it's haram to befriend them, we should not love them, etc.
                              :GB_bonesrock:
                              And all the heavens go their way.... And only change is here to stay...

                              Comment

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