Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

[ChristianD]

In this book under, The Prophets on page 23, Lot, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon and Job, it mentions that the Quran speaks of these prophets in a lot of praise while the bible accuses them of great sins such as cheating, adultery, incest, betrayal, worshipping idols and blasphemy. Christians are taught that these men, although chosen by God, were prone to make mistakes like any other men and that what shines clearly through the lives of these great men, is God's love, mercy and forgiveness. You do not see the men as being great in themselves through their own efforts but you see their lives as an arrow pointing to the love and mercy of God. I do not understand why that is seen as a negative and that you need to be perfect to be considered great among men. If someone could elaborate on this because I am not understanding why this is an issue.

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

Re: Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

In this book under, The Prophets on page 23, Lot, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon and Job, it mentions that the Quran speaks of these prophets in a lot of praise while the bible accuses them of great sins such as cheating, adultery, incest, betrayal, worshipping idols and blasphemy. Christians are taught that these men, although chosen by God, were prone to make mistakes like any other men and that what shines clearly through the lives of these great men, is God's love, mercy and forgiveness. You do not see the men as being great in themselves through their own efforts but you see their lives as an arrow pointing to the love and mercy of God. I do not understand why that is seen as a negative and that you need to be perfect to be considered great among men. If someone could elaborate on this because I am not understanding why this is an issue.

I think the reason you might not be not be understanding this issue is because you haven't truly appreciated what is Prophethood. Prophets are not just great or saintly men, there are many men like that in history. There are many stories in Islamic history and today of big sinners repenting and then leading exemplary pious live. But Prophets are those people who God directly chose to guide and lead the people in accordance to the Revelation that God had revealed. They are the primary example for their people so it follows that God must protect them from sins and protect them from persisting upon error.

I'm not that wide read on the details of the Christian narrative but from what you mentioned it seems to give an over emphasis on love, mercy and forgiveness. It gives people the idea that they can do whatever they want as long as they "turn back to God at some point in the future", this is at odds with Islam because we believe God has commanded us to live upright lives according His Guidance all throughout our lives. When we sin and repent, part of our repentance is to make a firm resolve not to return to the sin again. Islam encompasses hope, love and fear of God. You might find this article on this issue beneficial: Fear, Love & Hope- The Three Essential Ingredients for Faith (Emaan).

Hope that makes sense. Feel free to ask for further clarification if its not clear.

[Musbah]

Re: Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

In this book under, The Prophets on page 23, Lot, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon and Job, it mentions that the Quran speaks of these prophets in a lot of praise while the bible accuses them of great sins such as cheating, adultery, incest, betrayal, worshipping idols and blasphemy. Christians are taught that these men, although chosen by God, were prone to make mistakes like any other men and that what shines clearly through the lives of these great men, is God's love, mercy and forgiveness. You do not see the men as being great in themselves through their own efforts but you see their lives as an arrow pointing to the love and mercy of God. I do not understand why that is seen as a negative and that you need to be perfect to be considered great among men. If someone could elaborate on this because I am not understanding why this is an issue.

The problem with what the Bible accuses them of is that people will get the idea that those heinous crimes are acceptable since God is merciful and forgiving. And so you have nations full of adulterers, idolaters, homosexuals and so on that you see in the followers of Christianity and Catholiscism. Just another big wig pastor of a 15000 member Christian Church in our local community was caught with adultery. The Prophets are role models for their peoples. If they are doing what the Bible wrongfully accuses them of doing then that is not sending the right message of what God wants from the people.

[ChristianD]

Re: Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

The problem with what the Bible accuses them of is that people will get the idea that those heinous crimes are acceptable since God is merciful and forgiving. And so you have nations full of adulterers, idolaters, homosexuals and so on that you see in the followers of Christianity and Catholiscism. Just another big wig pastor of a 15000 member Christian Church in our local community was caught with adultery. The Prophets are role models for their peoples. If they are doing what the Bible wrongfully accuses them of doing then that is not sending the right message of what God wants from the people.

I do not agree that people will get the idea that these sins are acceptable. The prophets stories are told and it is made very clear that these are sins from reading how God responds to them and how, after repentance, God forgives them. For me the journey of their life teaches us that when we make mistakes we can ask for forgiveness just like the prophets and the grace and mercy of God will prevail. I don't know that the prophets are role models, they are spoken of in the bible as ordinary people, messengers with a message to deliver. Then you speak of pastors in America or indeed any other country and how that pastor stole money and deceived people and my response is different when it shouldn't be because it is the same thing. Your comparison highlighting my inconsistency of beliefs has certainly given me something to think about.

[ChristianD]

Re: Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

You have mentioned the over-emphasis on grace in the Christian church and this is indeed one of my bug bares and a possible reason why the church is in disarray. It is certainly the reason I stopped attending as I could see no difference between the church and the rest of the world. My priest tells me that sheep are notoriously stupid and yet the shepherd still protects and cares for them. A father's children might get themselves in a dreadful pickle but he will still continue to love them and pick them back up. I invariably have no answer to that and the conversation fizzles out. I don't know that I consider great men to be without faults and failings. We have a verse from the bible that says God chose the weak and foolish of this world to confound the wise. Do you have a similar saying in Islam?

I think the reason you might not be not be understanding this issue is because you haven't truly appreciated what is Prophethood. Prophets are not just great or saintly men, there are many men like that in history. There are many stories in Islamic history and today of big sinners repenting and then leading exemplary pious live. But Prophets are those people who God directly chose to guide and lead the people in accordance to the Revelation that God had revealed. They are the primary example for their people so it follows that God must protect them from sins and protect them from persisting upon error.

I'm not that wide read on the details of the Christian narrative but from what you mentioned it seems to give an over emphasis on love, mercy and forgiveness. It gives people the idea that they can do whatever they want as long as they "turn back to God at some point in the future", this is at odds with Islam because we believe God has commanded us to live upright lives according His Guidance all throughout our lives. When we sin and repent, part of our repentance is to make a firm resolve not to return to the sin again. Islam encompasses hope, love and fear of God. You might find this article on this issue beneficial: Fear, Love & Hope- The Three Essential Ingredients for Faith (Emaan).

Hope that makes sense. Feel free to ask for further clarification if its not clear.

[Wave&Smile]

Re: Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

cheating, adultery, incest, betrayal, worshipping idols and blasphemy.

Even plenty of ordinary and not-so-great people, not chosen-by God people manage to get through their lives without doing any of this.

Yet you think it acceptable to call people who do this great men chosen by God?

Alhamdulillah I free myself from the slanders of the Bible against God's chosen men and prophets

[ChristianD]

Re: Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

I am not sure what I think at the moment.

Even plenty of ordinary and not-so-great people, not chosen-by God people manage to get through their lives without doing any of this.

Yet you think it acceptable to call people who do this great men chosen by God?

Alhamdulillah I free myself from the slanders of the Bible against God's chosen men and prophets

[Talwaar]

Re: Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

Does it make sense for those who have a direct connection with the Almighty to part of such sins?

[ChristianD]

Re: Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

It does not make sense but for me to believe otherwise suggests that man can achieve his place in heaven by his own efforts, which hits at the very core of the Christian message. Mankind needed a saviour as this place was not achievable by deeds but by relationship with God through The Christ and his grace. It is true many people abuse that grace but that does not in any way mean that the principle taught is untrue because it is taken advantage of.

Does it make sense for those who have a direct connection with the Almighty to part of such sins?

[Rebel101]

Re: Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

It does not make sense but for me to believe otherwise suggests that man can achieve his place in heaven by his own efforts, which hits at the very core of the Christian message. Mankind needed a saviour as this place was not achievable by deeds but by relationship with God through The Christ and his grace. It is true many people abuse that grace but that does not in any way mean that the principle taught is untrue because it is taken advantage of.

Our saviour is Allah. We enter heaven not by our own efforts but by His mercy.
Not one individual will enter heaven by their own deeds, not even our Prophet Muhammad :saw: who is as perfect as a human can ever get. Allah does not need to sacrifice an innocent being in order to forgive us. His mercy is not limited like that. We refrain from major sins and the most Merciful pardons our minor sins and if He wills He will pardon all sins including major ones.

If we, a bunch of nobodies can refrain from adultery and all that major stuff then how does it make sense for a prophet, a guide and example, chosen up and above mankind to pass on the message of God, to fail?

Also, Allah says ''I've completed my favour upon you'' by perfecting your religion, which means He sent us only the best of guides, people that show us the path desired by God, so He chooses and guides His Prophets to near perfection which equips us with the best of strategies to follow our religion.

[*sheba*]

Re: Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

It does not make sense but for me to believe otherwise suggests that man can achieve his place in heaven by his own efforts, which hits at the very core of the Christian message. Mankind needed a saviour as this place was not achievable by deeds but by relationship with God through The Christ and his grace. It is true many people abuse that grace but that does not in any way mean that the principle taught is untrue because it is taken advantage of.

Came across this, remembered ur thread:

Were Allah to hold humankind to account strictly, no one’s good deeds would outweigh their evil deeds. However, Allah has manifested His grace by multiplying the value of good deeds, while keeping evil deeds at their face value. It is by the grace of Allah that the true believers enter Paradise. Deeds have a major role, but they are not the deciding factor. Always remember that in spite of all our good deeds, it is only by the Grace and Mercy of Allaah that we might enter Jannah.

~ Dr Bilal

[Sandman]

Re: Christianity and Islam by Naser Al-Moghamis

It does not make sense but for me to believe otherwise suggests that man can achieve his place in heaven by his own efforts, which hits at the very core of the Christian message. Mankind needed a saviour as this place was not achievable by deeds but by relationship with God through The Christ and his grace. It is true many people abuse that grace but that does not in any way mean that the principle taught is untrue because it is taken advantage of.

I personally find it degrading to myself and indeed to our creator to think that humans can "take advantage of god". Taking advantage of someone requires a certain superiority over the one taken advantage of.

For Muslims we can sin and we can mistakenly believe "Oh Allah is merciful I don't have to obey him, I'll get away with sinning" but we'll be in for a rude awakening when we die.