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Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

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  • Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

    hey guys anyone can explain this verse nicely to non-Muslims ?

    4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

  • #2
    Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

    if i remember right, this verse was abrogated by a verse in surah an noor

    edit:

    The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment. [an-noor:2]
    Last edited by .Hajar.; 04-10-11, 11:23 AM.
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    • #3
      Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

      the verse that precedes the one about two women committing lewdness says two men, which because of Arabic grammar*, could mean two men or two women, so it could refer to male homosexual sex, or fornication between a man and a woman (i.e. unmarried). then the next verse says two women, because this involves slightly different grammar, and means lesbian sex. Due to Arabic grammar it's necessary to clarify that the same applies when it's two women, otherwise someone could claim that there's no ban on lesbian sex.

      basically, it means if you have sex when you're not married (with someone of either gender) and four reliable witnesses catch you at it, you get 100 lashes. It also means that if there are fewer than 4 reliable witnesses, i.e. just three or less, that everyone has to shut their mouth about it and hide the sin and let them repent privately with Allah. (note that this refers to consentual sex, rape comes under a different set of rules - also adultery comes under different rules because of the hurt that it causes to the husband/wife of the adulterer)

      *dual and plurals in the masculine can refer to all male groups or mixed male/female groups. the feminine is only used for all female groups. therefore the masculine dual can refer to two men or a man and a woman. to refer to two women, you use the feminine dual. ditto plurals for groups of 3+
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      • #4
        Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

        Originally posted by dhakiyya View Post
        ...basically, it means if you have sex when you're not married (with someone of either gender) and four reliable witnesses catch you at it, you get 100 lashes. It also means that if there are fewer than 4 reliable witnesses, i.e. just three or less, that everyone has to shut their mouth about it and hide the sin and let them repent privately with Allah. (note that this refers to consentual sex, rape comes under a different set of rules - also adultery comes under different rules because of the hurt that it causes to the husband/wife of the adulterer)
        If there are no witnesses if a husband/wife commits adultery, the husband and the wife both agree to swear before God that they are correct in their judgment (innocent or guilty), at which point they then divorce and leave the matter to God.

        Also, the second part of the verse, "and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them..." means that, if witnesses testify, the guilty party must be accompanied at all times when leaving the house- to prevent the action from happening again...

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        • #5
          Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

          sisters, 4:15 was Abrogated, it was an early law and was abolished and replaced by the following law of lashing:

          The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes..

          more info:

          At the beginning of Islam, the ruling was that if a woman commits adultery as stipulated by sufficient proof, she was confined to her home, without leave, until she died.

          Allah said,

          وَاللاَّتِي يَأْتِينَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مِن نِّسَآئِكُمْ فَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَرْبَعةً مِّنكُمْ فَإِن شَهِدُواْ فَأَمْسِكُوهُنَّ فِي الْبُيُوتِ حَتَّىَ يَتَوَفَّاهُنَّ الْمَوْتُ أَوْ يَجْعَلَ اللّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلاً﴿١٥

          And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from among you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allah ordains for them some (other) way.

          `Some other way' mentioned here is the abrogation of this ruling that came later.

          Ibn Abbas said,

          "The early ruling was confinement, until Allah sent down Surah An-Nur (Surah 24) which abrogated that ruling with the ruling of flogging (for fornication) or stoning to death (for adultery).''

          Similar was reported from Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Al-Hasan, Ata Al-Khurasani, Abu Salih, Qatadah, Zayd bin Aslam and Ad-Dahhak, and this is a matter that is agreed upon.

          Imam Ahmad recorded that Ubadah bin As-Samit said,

          "When the revelation descended upon the Messenger of Allah, it would affect him and his face would show signs of strain.

          One day, Allah sent down a revelation to him, and when the Messenger was relieved of its strain, he said,

          خُذُوا عَنِّي، قَدْ جَعَلَ اللهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلًا، الثَّيِّبُ بِالثَّيِّبِ، وَالْبِكْرُ بِالْبِكْرِ، الثَّــيِّبُ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ، وَرَجْمٌ بِالْحِجَارَةِ، وَالْبِكْرُ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ ثُمَّ نَفْيُ سَنَة

          Take from me: Allah has made some other way for them. The married with the married, the unmarried with the unmarried. The married gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death, while the unmarried gets a hundred lashes then banishment for a year.''

          Muslim and the collectors of the Sunan recorded that Ubadah bin As-Samit said that the Prophet said,
          خُذُوا عَنِّي خُذُوا عَنِّي، قَدْ جَعَلَ اللهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلًا، الْبِكْرُ بِالْبِكْرِ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ وَتَغْرِيبُ عَامٍ، وَالثَّيِّبُ بِالثَّيِّبِ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ وَالرَّجْم

          Take from me, take from me. Allah has made some other way for them: the (unmarried) gets a hundred lashes and banishment for one year, while the (married) gets a hundred lashes and stoning to death.

          At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih''.
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          • #6
            Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

            Originally posted by SaraBrally View Post
            Also, the second part of the verse, "and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them..." means that, if witnesses testify, the guilty party must be accompanied at all times when leaving the house- to prevent the action from happening again...
            No.. it means wall them up in their house until they die of hunger or thirst..

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            • #7
              Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

              I recommend you to read Ibn Kathir tafseer, it explains it very nicely. Online edition available on qtafsir.com.

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              • #8
                Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

                Originally posted by Mr sanity View Post
                No.. it means wall them up in their house until they die of hunger or thirst..
                You won't last a week with that level of stupidity
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                • #9
                  Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

                  Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                  if i remember right, this verse was abrogated by a verse in surah an noor

                  edit:

                  The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment. [an-noor:2]
                  it isn't abbrogated sis, its talking about a different matter.

                  verse 2 of Surah Noor is talking about fornicators those who are involved in illicit sex before marriage etc.

                  there is no Ayah in the Quran that is abbrogated by another Ayah in the Quran.

                  previously revealed revelations and ayahs have been abbrogated by the Quran.

                  :jkk:
                  Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 04-10-11, 02:32 PM.
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                  • #10
                    Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

                    Originally posted by RazielTemp View Post
                    it isn't abbrogated sis, its talking about a different matter.

                    verse 2 of Surah Noor is talking about fornicators those who are involved in illicit sex before marriage etc.

                    there is no Ayah in the Quran that is abbrogated by another Ayah in the Quran.

                    previously revealed revelations and ayahs have been abbrogated by the Quran.

                    :jkk:
                    Actually bro, [email protected] is correct in that the verse in question IS abrogated. I remember asking my local Imam about this a while back and what the sister posted above is more or less what the Imam told me.

                    A quick search on Islam QA:

                    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/839

                    And the bolded is not quite true either

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                    • #11
                      Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

                      Originally posted by Mr sanity View Post
                      No.. it means wall them up in their house until they die of hunger or thirst..
                      sadly for you troll, no Muslim has understood the Ayah in such a twisted manner as you are attempting to,

                      if you continue you will only make a fool of yourself.

                      regards
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                      • #12
                        Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

                        Originally posted by Abu Suleiman View Post
                        Actually bro, [email protected] is correct in that the verse in question IS abrogated. I remember asking my local Imam about this a while back and what the sister posted above is more or less what the Imam told me.

                        A quick search on Islam QA:

                        http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/839
                        if that's the case then it implies a contradiction ... Which undoubtedly does not exist in the Quran. therefore the explanation given is incorrect by the imam.

                        no abbrogated Ayah exists in the Quran.

                        :jkk:
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                        "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

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                        • #13
                          Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

                          Originally posted by RazielTemp View Post
                          if that's the case then it implies a contradiction ... Which undoubtedly does not exist in the Quran. therefore the explanation given is incorrect by the imam.

                          no abbrogated Ayah exists in the Quran.

                          :jkk:
                          Agreed. The idea of abrogation in the Qur'an is an excuse for two verses that seemingly contradict (but really just need to be put into a specific context).

                          Anyway, why would God reveal something in the Qur'an (the hadiths are different), which guides 1 billion + people and has been kept intact and unaltered for 1400 years, that became irrelevant two years later? God knew the Qur'an would be preserved, so why preserve something abrogated?
                          Last edited by SaraBrally; 04-10-11, 02:50 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

                            Originally posted by RazielTemp View Post
                            if that's the case then it implies a contradiction ... Which undoubtedly does not exist in the Quran. therefore the explanation given is incorrect by the imam.

                            no abbrogated Ayah exists in the Quran.

                            :jkk:
                            I'm afraid you're incorrect there bro. There's a whole chapter in 'uloom al Qur'an called An-Nasikh wal al-mansookh which specifically deals with abrogation in the Qur'an. And this is not me saying this, this is something that is agreed upon by the 'ulama. I recommend Yasir Qadhi's book "An introduction to the sciences of the Qur'an" and Mufti Taqi's "Uloom al Qur'an".

                            I'll include a quick summary. Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an:
                            مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا
                            We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it.

                            And another very explicit verse:
                            وَإِذَا بَدَّلْنَا آيَةً مَّكَانَ آيَةٍ ۙ وَاللَّـهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُنَزِّلُ
                            And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down

                            I'm short of time at the moment and it's late here. InshaAllah, I will give more detail tomorrow, and even scans from the books I mentioned if I can manage.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Can anyone explain to me quran verse 4:15 for Non-muslims

                              Originally posted by Abu Suleiman View Post
                              I'm afraid you're incorrect there bro. There's a whole chapter in 'uloom al Qur'an called An-Nasikh wal al-mansookh which specifically deals with abrogation in the Qur'an. And this is not me saying this, this is something that is agreed upon by the 'ulama. I recommend Yasir Qadhi's book "An introduction to the sciences of the Qur'an" and Mufti Taqi's "Uloom al Qur'an".

                              I'll include a quick summary. Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an:
                              مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا
                              We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it.

                              And another very explicit verse:
                              وَإِذَا بَدَّلْنَا آيَةً مَّكَانَ آيَةٍ ۙ وَاللَّـهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُنَزِّلُ
                              And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down

                              I'm short of time at the moment and it's late here. InshaAllah, I will give more detail tomorrow, and even scans from the books I mentioned if I can manage.
                              Did Allah change his mind in the course of his revelations to Muhammad?
                              Last edited by DonSmith; 04-10-11, 03:22 PM.

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