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    #76
    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    How do you explain the words of Imam Ibn Hajar when quoted Imam Khattaabi as stating that Najd for the people of Madinah are the steppes and semi-desert of Iraq?

    Comment


      #77
      Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

      Originally posted by Sunflowerz View Post
      whats wrong with following him?
      Asalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

      Please don't go off topic, inshallah make a new thread asking "What is wrong with Sheikh Nazim" if you can't find any other threads about it, or something to that extent.

      It is important to stay on topic otherwise there is no reason to have threads. I don't mean to hurt your feelings, Sunflowerz.

      Inshallah Sunflowerz, I will tell you briefly why Sheikh Nazim has grey areas, but please do not respond to this response, if you have more questions then please inshallah just make a new thread or search for one:

      Sheikh Nazim had followers making Tawaf (circumambulation) around him, and I saw pictures of it, and there are quotes from some of the books he wrote which I don't agree with. I don't call anyone bad names or insult anyone inshallah, but it is a grey area that is best to avoid. Stick to Qur'an and Sunnah inshallah, listen to imam's and sheikhs if they have good advice and wisdom, but avoid them if you fear deviation from them inshallah.

      Wasalaam
      http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
      O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

      Comment


        #78
        Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

        Originally posted by ahaneefah View Post
        What did the classical scholars say about the ahadith? Don't quote me from scholars today. I will not read anything from that website which promotes the beliefs of the innovators. They have misquoted scholars like Ibn Taymiyyah to jusify their innovations, therefore I will not trust what they say.

        What does the word Najd mean linguistically?
        Abd al-Wahhab himself didn't accept Ibn Taymiyyah... I'm now confused about your sources, they seem mixed and conflicting now....

        Originally posted by ahaneefah View Post
        How do you explain the words of Imam Ibn Hajar when quoted Imam Khattaabi as stating that Najd for the people of Madinah are the steppes and semi-desert of Iraq?
        Inshallah akhi can you quote your sources? You expect me to take your word that any scholar said that the Najd doesn't refer to Saudi and therefore Salafi. Alhamdulilah, I appreciate your word and opinion akhi, but I can't just accept everything you say when you haven't quoted any reliable scholars, and I have but you reject reading what I've quoted. It is too convenient for you to deny all of my sources but insist upon your own without even linking where they're coming from. Also, as I mentioned, how can you rely on Ibn Taymiyyah to defend Salafism when Abd al-Wahhab did not accept Ibn Taymiyyah's opinions.

        Wasalaam
        http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
        O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

        Comment


          #79
          Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

          seems there is a difference of opinion where najd is, some say Iraq, others say Saudi Arabia
          Last edited by IDK; 01-03-10, 02:28 PM.
          " O you who have believed, do not follow the footsteps of Satan. And whoever follows the footsteps of Satan - indeed, he enjoins immorality and wrongdoing. And if not for the favor of Allah upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have been pure, ever, but Allah purifies whom He wills, and Allah is Hearing and Knowing. "
          Surah An-Nur, Verse 21

          Comment


            #80
            Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

            AS - This is the weakest argument the sufis have against Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab for several reasons.

            1- It's merely saying that everything who come from Najd is bad, which is a complete stupidity.

            2- We could also quote the sahiih Hadiith saying about the Ibn Tameem's superiority and conclude "this is the superiority of Muhammad ibn 'Abd Al-Wahhaab on the rest of the scholars"

            3- Maybe the real fitna will appear from Najd in the future?

            4- The injust attack towards Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab and his da'wa which benefited the sufis-extremists a lot came from Najd

            5- The governement of Saudi Arabia is presently perverting the religion by his legios of so-called scholars, and they rule from Najd, and this is far worst than Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab fighting against grave-worshippers.

            6- Even if we suppose that the da'wa of Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab was a completely disgusting fitna, it all came from Imam Ahmad, Imam Ibn Taymiyya and other senior scholars like Al-Dhahabi (who had the same aqeedah as Ibn Taymiyya). So in fact, what is supposed to be disgusting from the Najdi Da'wa came from the Shaam etc... So we could also use this hadith from the Najd to say that the fitna that the Prophet (saw) mentioned was in fact the sufis grave-worshippers

            Comment


              #81
              Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

              Originally posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
              Abd al-Wahhab himself didn't accept Ibn Taymiyyah... I'm now confused about your sources, they seem mixed and conflicting now....

              Inshallah akhi can you quote your sources? You expect me to take your word that any scholar said that the Najd doesn't refer to Saudi and therefore Salafi. Alhamdulilah, I appreciate your word and opinion akhi, but I can't just accept everything you say when you haven't quoted any reliable scholars, and I have but you reject reading what I've quoted. It is too convenient for you to deny all of my sources but insist upon your own without even linking where they're coming from. Also, as I mentioned, how can you rely on Ibn Taymiyyah to defend Salafism when Abd al-Wahhab did not accept Ibn Taymiyyah's opinions.

              Wasalaam
              Can you please show us exactly how Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab rejected the views of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah? Have you read any of their books? Like Kitab Tawhid or Aqeedah al Wasatiyyah?

              Ibn Hajr said: "al-Khattaabee said:

              "the najd in the direction of the east, and for the one who is in Madeenah then his Najd would be the desert of Iraaq and it's regions [baadiya al-Iraaq wa Nawaaheehaa] for this is to the east of the People of Madeenah. The basic meaning of Najd is that which is raised/elevated from the earth in contravention to al-Gawr for that is what is lower than it. Tihaamah [the coastal plain along the south-western and southern shores of the Arabian Peninsula] is entirely al-Gawr and Mecca is in Tihaamah.'[...] by this [saying of al-Khattaabee] the weakness of the saying of ad-Daawodee is understood that 'Najd is in the direction of Iraaq' [min Naahiya al-Iraaq] for he suggests that Najd is a specific place. This is not the case, rather everything that is elevated with respect to what adjoins it is called Najd and the lower area called Gawr."
              Fath al-Baaree 13/58-59

              Comment


                #82
                Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

                Originally posted by ahaneefah View Post
                How do you explain the words of Imam Ibn Hajar when quoted Imam Khattaabi as stating that Najd for the people of Madinah are the steppes and semi-desert of Iraq?
                "Najd region, central Saudi Arabia, comprising a mainly rocky plateau sloping eastward from the mountains of the Hejaz. On the northern, eastern, and southern sides, it is bounded by the sand deserts of an-Nafūd, ad-Dahnāʾ, and the Rubʿ al-Khali. It is sparsely settled, except for the fertile oases strung along the escarpment of Jabal (mountains) Ṭuwayq and the al-ʿAramah plateau. The arid region remained politically divided among rival peoples until the mid-18th century, when it became the centre of the Wahhābī, a fundamentalist Islāmic movement. Led by the Muslim scholar Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhāb"

                The Prophet said, Peace be upon him
                1. "They [Khawarij = those outside] transferred the Qur'anic verses meant to refer
                to unbelievers and made them refer to believers."
                2. "What I most fear in my community is a man who interprets verses of the
                Qur'an out of context."
                3. "The confusion [fitna] comes from there (and he pointed to the East = Najd in
                present-day Eastern Saudi Arabia)."
                4. "A people that recite Qur'an will come out of the East, but it will not go past
                their throats. They will pass through the religion (of Islam) like the arrow passes
                through its quarry. They will no more come back to the religion than the arrow
                will come back to its course. Their sign is that they shave (their heads)."
                5. "There will be in my Community a dissent and a faction, a people with
                excellent words and vile deeds. They will read Qur'an, but their faith does not go
                past their throats. They will pass through religion the way an arrow passes
                through its quarry. They will no more come back to the religion than the arrow
                will come back to its original course. They are the worst of human beings and the
                worst of all creation. The one who kills them or is killed by them is blessed.
                They summon to the book of Allah but they have nothing to do with it. Whoever
                kills them is closer to Allah than they. Their sign is that they shave (their heads)."
                6. "A people will come out at the end of times, immature, foolish and corrupt.
                They will hold the discourse of the best of creation and recite Qur'an, but it will
                not go past their throats. They will passes through religion the way an arrow
                passes through its quarry. If you find them, kill them, for verily whoever kills
                them will have his reward from Allah the Day of Judgment."
                7. "There will be people in my Community whose mark is that they shave (their
                heads). They will recite Qur'an, but it will not go past their throats. They will
                pass through religion the way an arrow passes through its target. They are the
                worst of human beings and the worst of all creation."
                8. "The apex of disbelief is towards the East [Najd]. Pride and arrogance is found
                among the people of the horse and the camel [Bedouin Arabs]."
                9. "Harshness and dryness of heart are in the East [Najd], and true belief is among
                the people of Hijaz."
                10. "O Allah, bless our Syria and our Yemen!" They said: "Ya Rasulallah, and
                our Najd!" He didn't reply. He blessed Syria and Yemen twice more. They asked
                him to bless Najd twice more but he didn't reply. The third time he said: "There
                [in Najd] are the earthquakes and the dissensions, and through it will dawn the
                epoch [or horn] of shaytan."
                11. A version has, "The two epochs [or horns] of shaytan." Some scholars have
                said that the dual referred to Musaylima the Arch-liar and to Muhammad ibn
                `Abd al-Wahhab.
                12. Some versions continue with the words: "And in it [Najd] is the consuming
                disease," i.e. death.
                13. Some books of history mention the following version in the chapters devoted
                to the battles against the Banu Hanifa:
                "At the end of times a man will come out of Musaylima's country and he will
                change the religion of Islam." Note: Most of the Khawarij were from the Najd
                area, from the tribes of Banu Hanifa, Banu Tamim, and Wa'il. Musaylima was
                from the Banu Hanifa, and Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab is from Tamim.
                13a. Abu Bakr said concerning the Banu Hanifa (the tribe of Musaylima the Liar):
                "Their valley [Najd] will not cease to be a valley of dissensions until the end of
                time, and the religion will never recover from their liars until Judgment Day," and
                in another version: "Woe to al-Yamama without end."
                13b. When `Ali killed the Khawarij, someone said: "Praise be to Allah Who has
                brought them down and relieved us from them." Ali replied: "Verily, by the One
                in Whose hand is my soul, some of them are still in the loins of men and they
                have not been born yet, and the last of them will fight on the side of the
                Antichrist."
                14. "A people that recite the Qur'an will come out of the East, but it will not go
                past their throats. Every time a generation of them is cut down another one will
                come until the last one finds itself on the side of the Antichrist."
                15. "There will be a huge confusion within my Community. There will not remain
                one house of the Arabs except that confusion will enter it. Those who die because
                of it are in the fire. The harm of the tongue in it will be greater than that of the
                sword."
                16. "There will be a dissension (in which people will be) deaf, dumb and blind
                (this means they will be blind and not see the true issue nor listen to the voice of
                truth): whoever tries to control it, the dissension will control him."
                17. "A shaytan will appear in Najd by whose dissension the Arabian island will
                quake."
                18. On the authority of al-`Abbas: "A man will come out of the Wadi Abu
                Hanifah [in Najd] (whose appearance is) like a bull that lunges against its yoke.
                There will be much slaughter and killing in his time. They will make the
                possessions of Muslims lawful for themselves and for trade among themselves.
                They will make the lives of Muslims lawful for themselves and for boasting
                among themselves. In that confusion the despised and the lowly will attain
                positions of power. Their idle desires will keep company with them the way a dog
                keeps company with its master."
                19. On the authority of Abu Sa`id al-Khudri: "Verily in the wake of this time of
                mine comes a people who will recite Qur'an but it will not go past their throats.
                They will pass through religion the way an arrow passes through its quarry. They
                will kill the Muslims and leave the idolaters alone. If I saw them, verily I would
                kill them the way the tribe of `Aad was killed [i.e. all of them]."
                20. "There will be towards the end of time a people who will say to you what
                neither you nor your forebears ever heard before. Beware of them lest they
                misguide you and bring you confusion."
                21. "They will pass through Islam like an arrow passes through its quarry.
                Wherever you meet them, kill them!"
                22. "They are the dogs of the people of Hell."
                23. "They recite Qur'an and consider it in their favor but it is against them."
                24. "There will be thirty dajjals (antichrists) after me, all claiming prophethood."
                25. "Some people will be standing and calling at the gates of hell; whoever
                responds to their call, their will throw him into the Fire. They will be from our
                own people [i.e. Arabs] and will speak our language [Arabic]. Should you live to
                see the m, stick to the main body (jama`a) of the Muslims and their leader. (If
                there is no main body and no leader,) isolate yourself from all these sects, even if
                you have to eat from the roots of trees until death overcomes you while you are in
                that state."
                26. "Just before the Hour there will be many liars." Jabir ibn Samurah said: "Be
                on your guard against them."
                27. "The Hour will not come until thirty dajjals appear, all of them lying about
                Allah and His Messenger."
                28. "There will be Dajjals and liars among my Community. They will tell you
                something new, which neither you nor your forefathers have heard. Be on your
                guard against them and do not let them lead you astray."
                29. "The time of the Dajjal will be years of confusion. People will believe a liar,
                and disbelieve one who tells the truth. People will distrust one who is trustworthy,
                and trust one who is treacherous; and the ruwaybidha will have a say." Someone
                asked: "Who are they?" He said: "Those who rebel against Allah and will have a
                say in general affairs."
                30. "If the leadership is entrusted to those unfit for it, expect the Hour."
                31. "You will see the barefoot ones, the naked, the destitute, the shepherds and
                camelherds take pride in building tall structures in abundance."
                32. "One of the signs of the change of religion is the affectation of eloquence by
                the rabble and their betaking to palaces in big cities."



                Originally posted by ahanafeeh
                How do you explain the words of Imam Ibn Hajar when quoted Imam Khattaabi as stating that Najd for the people of Madinah are the steppes and semi-desert of Iraq?
                So are you telling me that Iraqi's put Umar's (ra) fasting and prayers to shame? Are you telling me that the Iraqi's have any sort of leadership in the Ummah? Are you telling me that Iraqi's take religious knowledge to large palaces in big cities? The Iraqi's recite Qur'an and consider it in their favour but it is against them? You're saying the horn of Shaytan is the Iraqi brothers, sisters, who are being murdered? Astagfirullah, how can you assert this about the mujahid wa mujahideen.



                Astagfirullah, Allahu 3alem.
                Last edited by AlayhisSalaam; 01-03-10, 02:40 PM.
                http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
                O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

                Comment


                  #83
                  Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

                  Originally posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
                  "Najd region, central Saudi Arabia, comprising a mainly rocky plateau sloping eastward from the mountains of the Hejaz. On the northern, eastern, and southern sides, it is bounded by the sand deserts of an-Nafūd, ad-Dahnāʾ, and the Rubʿ al-Khali. It is sparsely settled, except for the fertile oases strung along the escarpment of Jabal (mountains) Ṭuwayq and the al-ʿAramah plateau. The arid region remained politically divided among rival peoples until the mid-18th century, when it became the centre of the Wahhābī, a fundamentalist Islāmic movement. Led by the Muslim scholar Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhāb"

                  The Prophet said, Peace be upon him
                  1. "They [Khawarij = those outside] transferred the Qur'anic verses meant to refer
                  to unbelievers and made them refer to believers."
                  2. "What I most fear in my community is a man who interprets verses of the
                  Qur'an out of context."
                  3. "The confusion [fitna] comes from there (and he pointed to the East = Najd in
                  present-day Eastern Saudi Arabia)."
                  4. "A people that recite Qur'an will come out of the East, but it will not go past
                  their throats. They will pass through the religion (of Islam) like the arrow passes
                  through its quarry. They will no more come back to the religion than the arrow
                  will come back to its course. Their sign is that they shave (their heads)."
                  5. "There will be in my Community a dissent and a faction, a people with
                  excellent words and vile deeds. They will read Qur'an, but their faith does not go
                  past their throats. They will pass through religion the way an arrow passes
                  through its quarry. They will no more come back to the religion than the arrow
                  will come back to its original course. They are the worst of human beings and the
                  worst of all creation. The one who kills them or is killed by them is blessed.
                  They summon to the book of Allah but they have nothing to do with it. Whoever
                  kills them is closer to Allah than they. Their sign is that they shave (their heads)."
                  6. "A people will come out at the end of times, immature, foolish and corrupt.
                  They will hold the discourse of the best of creation and recite Qur'an, but it will
                  not go past their throats. They will passes through religion the way an arrow
                  passes through its quarry. If you find them, kill them, for verily whoever kills
                  them will have his reward from Allah the Day of Judgment."
                  7. "There will be people in my Community whose mark is that they shave (their
                  heads). They will recite Qur'an, but it will not go past their throats. They will
                  pass through religion the way an arrow passes through its target. They are the
                  worst of human beings and the worst of all creation."
                  8. "The apex of disbelief is towards the East [Najd]. Pride and arrogance is found
                  among the people of the horse and the camel [Bedouin Arabs]."
                  9. "Harshness and dryness of heart are in the East [Najd], and true belief is among
                  the people of Hijaz."
                  10. "O Allah, bless our Syria and our Yemen!" They said: "Ya Rasulallah, and
                  our Najd!" He didn't reply. He blessed Syria and Yemen twice more. They asked
                  him to bless Najd twice more but he didn't reply. The third time he said: "There
                  [in Najd] are the earthquakes and the dissensions, and through it will dawn the
                  epoch [or horn] of shaytan."
                  11. A version has, "The two epochs [or horns] of shaytan." Some scholars have
                  said that the dual referred to Musaylima the Arch-liar and to Muhammad ibn
                  `Abd al-Wahhab.
                  12. Some versions continue with the words: "And in it [Najd] is the consuming
                  disease," i.e. death.
                  13. Some books of history mention the following version in the chapters devoted
                  to the battles against the Banu Hanifa:
                  "At the end of times a man will come out of Musaylima's country and he will
                  change the religion of Islam." Note: Most of the Khawarij were from the Najd
                  area, from the tribes of Banu Hanifa, Banu Tamim, and Wa'il. Musaylima was
                  from the Banu Hanifa, and Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab is from Tamim.
                  13a. Abu Bakr said concerning the Banu Hanifa (the tribe of Musaylima the Liar):
                  "Their valley [Najd] will not cease to be a valley of dissensions until the end of
                  time, and the religion will never recover from their liars until Judgment Day," and
                  in another version: "Woe to al-Yamama without end."
                  13b. When `Ali killed the Khawarij, someone said: "Praise be to Allah Who has
                  brought them down and relieved us from them." Ali replied: "Verily, by the One
                  in Whose hand is my soul, some of them are still in the loins of men and they
                  have not been born yet, and the last of them will fight on the side of the
                  Antichrist."
                  14. "A people that recite the Qur'an will come out of the East, but it will not go
                  past their throats. Every time a generation of them is cut down another one will
                  come until the last one finds itself on the side of the Antichrist."
                  15. "There will be a huge confusion within my Community. There will not remain
                  one house of the Arabs except that confusion will enter it. Those who die because
                  of it are in the fire. The harm of the tongue in it will be greater than that of the
                  sword."
                  16. "There will be a dissension (in which people will be) deaf, dumb and blind
                  (this means they will be blind and not see the true issue nor listen to the voice of
                  truth): whoever tries to control it, the dissension will control him."
                  17. "A shaytan will appear in Najd by whose dissension the Arabian island will
                  quake."
                  18. On the authority of al-`Abbas: "A man will come out of the Wadi Abu
                  Hanifah [in Najd] (whose appearance is) like a bull that lunges against its yoke.
                  There will be much slaughter and killing in his time. They will make the
                  possessions of Muslims lawful for themselves and for trade among themselves.
                  They will make the lives of Muslims lawful for themselves and for boasting
                  among themselves. In that confusion the despised and the lowly will attain
                  positions of power. Their idle desires will keep company with them the way a dog
                  keeps company with its master."
                  19. On the authority of Abu Sa`id al-Khudri: "Verily in the wake of this time of
                  mine comes a people who will recite Qur'an but it will not go past their throats.
                  They will pass through religion the way an arrow passes through its quarry. They
                  will kill the Muslims and leave the idolaters alone. If I saw them, verily I would
                  kill them the way the tribe of `Aad was killed [i.e. all of them]."
                  20. "There will be towards the end of time a people who will say to you what
                  neither you nor your forebears ever heard before. Beware of them lest they
                  misguide you and bring you confusion."
                  21. "They will pass through Islam like an arrow passes through its quarry.
                  Wherever you meet them, kill them!"
                  22. "They are the dogs of the people of Hell."
                  23. "They recite Qur'an and consider it in their favor but it is against them."
                  24. "There will be thirty dajjals (antichrists) after me, all claiming prophethood."
                  25. "Some people will be standing and calling at the gates of hell; whoever
                  responds to their call, their will throw him into the Fire. They will be from our
                  own people [i.e. Arabs] and will speak our language [Arabic]. Should you live to
                  see the m, stick to the main body (jama`a) of the Muslims and their leader. (If
                  there is no main body and no leader,) isolate yourself from all these sects, even if
                  you have to eat from the roots of trees until death overcomes you while you are in
                  that state."
                  26. "Just before the Hour there will be many liars." Jabir ibn Samurah said: "Be
                  on your guard against them."
                  27. "The Hour will not come until thirty dajjals appear, all of them lying about
                  Allah and His Messenger."
                  28. "There will be Dajjals and liars among my Community. They will tell you
                  something new, which neither you nor your forefathers have heard. Be on your
                  guard against them and do not let them lead you astray."
                  29. "The time of the Dajjal will be years of confusion. People will believe a liar,
                  and disbelieve one who tells the truth. People will distrust one who is trustworthy,
                  and trust one who is treacherous; and the ruwaybidha will have a say." Someone
                  asked: "Who are they?" He said: "Those who rebel against Allah and will have a
                  say in general affairs."
                  30. "If the leadership is entrusted to those unfit for it, expect the Hour."
                  31. "You will see the barefoot ones, the naked, the destitute, the shepherds and
                  camelherds take pride in building tall structures in abundance."
                  32. "One of the signs of the change of religion is the affectation of eloquence by
                  the rabble and their betaking to palaces in big cities."

                  So are you telling me that Iraqi's put Umar's (ra) fasting and prayers to shame? Are you telling me that the Iraqi's have any sort of leadership in the Ummah? Are you telling me that Iraqi's take religious knowledge to large palaces in big cities? The Iraqi's recite Qur'an and consider it in their favour but it is against them? You're saying the horn of Shaytan is the Iraqi brothers, sisters, who are being murdered? Astagfirullah, how can you assert this about the mujahid wa mujahideen.

                  What are you on about? Look all this is irrelavant rant. I can reply back and replace the word Iraqi with Saudi and do the same to you.

                  Deal with one issue at a time, don't jump to copying and pasting.

                  1) Prove to us how Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab rejected the views of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah as you claim?

                  2) Have you read his book Kitab at Tawheed?

                  3) What did the classical Ulema say regarding the ahadith you pasted? What did they say about Najd?

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

                    Originally posted by ahaneefah View Post
                    AS - This is the weakest argument the sufis have against Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab for several reasons.
                    Astagfirullah Akhi, have you read anything I've said. I am not a Sufi, and I am not using Sufi sources. Stop using the term "Sufi" as a defence and as an insult inshallah.

                    Originally posted by ahaneefah View Post
                    Can you please show us exactly how Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab rejected the views of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah? Have you read any of their books? Like Kitab Tawhid or Aqeedah al Wasatiyyah?
                    Here is one example from someone who is defending Abd al-Wahhab:

                    "He (Abd al-Wahhab) did not accept any interpreter, including Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Ibn Taymiyya, as being authoritative. Only the Qur’an enjoyed such authoritative status. The hadith enjoyed such authoritative status only when they were in keeping with the teachings and, most importantly, values of the Qur’an." - source
                    http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
                    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

                      Originally posted by ahaneefah View Post
                      What are you on about? Look all this is irrelavant rant. I can reply back and replace the word Iraqi with Saudi and do the same to you.
                      No, you cannot say the same about Saudi, because Abd al-Wahhab's teachings came out of Saudi and are responsible for the hatred amongst the Ummah today and are responsible for the hatred towards Muslims by non-Muslims as well. If Abd al-Wahhab did not bring such teachings which allowed his followers to promote Takfir then I highly doubt there would be so many issues of terrorism and violence within Islam as there is today. What Islamic sect or manhaj has come out of Iraq which has done this on such a scale?

                      Originally posted by ahaneefah View Post
                      Deal with one issue at a time, don't jump to copying and pasting.
                      I'm not just copying and pasting, I am dealing with the issue that we disagree on where Najd is, you quote some scholars and I quote other scholars, and you have not yet showed your sources as I requested earlier inshallah.

                      Originally posted by ahaneefah View Post
                      1) Prove to us how Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab rejected the views of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah as you claim?
                      In my previous post I quoted a pro-Wahhab source which said this.

                      Originally posted by ahaneefah View Post
                      2) Have you read his book Kitab at Tawheed?
                      No, but I have heard of it of course. Have you read it? If so, would you mind quoting from it inshallah?

                      Originally posted by ahaneefah View Post
                      3) What did the classical Ulema say regarding the ahadith you pasted? What did they say about Najd?
                      Define classical Ulema inshallah.
                      http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
                      O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

                        this entire thread is going nowhere simply because your not doing your homework. you say you are a revert but from your statemtents it appears that you have been pumped with a lot of false info.
                        your have been given quoted from the likes of ibn hajar rh i think that should suffice to say that its enough for you to lay down your argument and accept that your understanding of the hadeeth is incorrect and that indeed ibn hajar is the one who has more knowledge than you will ever obtain.

                        you know that if you came to a scholar and presented all this copy and paste that you would be told where the door is. you copy and paste from masud.co.uk a group of people that are known in the middle east for their association with many shirki beliefs. people that try and misquote scholars , they are in a ideological war with each other .

                        We are not here trying to make a case against sufis , i am making a case against the so called supposed sufis that rant about salafis and wahabis and najdis when in fact they have this religious immunity within themselves for the scholars that are known for shirk.

                        the only group that i can say that is not affected yet are the deobandis

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

                          Originally posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
                          Astagfirullah Akhi, have you read anything I've said. I am not a Sufi, and I am not using Sufi sources. Stop using the term "Sufi" as a defence and as an insult inshallah.

                          Here is one example from someone who is defending Abd al-Wahhab:

                          "He (Abd al-Wahhab) did not accept any interpreter, including Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Ibn Taymiyya, as being authoritative. Only the Qur’an enjoyed such authoritative status. The hadith enjoyed such authoritative status only when they were in keeping with the teachings and, most importantly, values of the Qur’an." - source
                          You have misunderstood the paragraph. The paragraph states only Quran and Sunnah enjoyed authoritative status as they are the main sources of Islam.

                          I am talking about beliefs and Aqeedah. If you are agianst Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab you must also be against Imam Ibn Taymiyyah as they both held the same Aqeedah. Same with Imam Ahmed.

                          What do you say about Imam Nawawi when he said that these hadith refer to the Dajjal coming from the east, Sharh Saheeh Muslim 2/29

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

                            Brother we are all trying to tell you one thing and that is don't run when you can't crawl.
                            knowledge is learned in steps shay and fa shay an in arabic.
                            so have patience memorize the quran study basic aqeedah and fiqh.
                            you will not gain a sigle piece of knowledge from talking about what group believes in your won't benefit from this

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

                              ASA

                              I've been watching this thread for a while and it perfectly demonstrates why we as a ummah are extremely weak; to me this thread boils down to a) insults, b) opinions based on personal experiences

                              (
                              Originally posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
                              I have seen Wahhabism/Salafi destroy people's lives, so I have a biased perspective which doesn't see Wahabbi in a good light, but I don't go out of my way to insult them, if I do insult them then it is due to my bias and not because of any ill intention in my heart, I don't hate anyone
                              )

                              and c) that people from a certain geographical location are pure evil. Bravo.
                              If this is how judgemental we are towards each other then no wonder some nonmuslims automatically assume all muslims are criminals based on their personal experiences further backed up by their "scholars"/the zionist owned media machine.



                              Originally posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post

                              I'm not trying to argue but inshallah to only find the truth in all matters
                              This is the only thing that matters to me too and the reason why I am replying to this thread is to help emphasize how important it is that we don't let our personal experiences stand in the way of objectivity (we ask nonmuslims to not judge islam by it's followers who are imperfect so if 99.9% of the salafis that you have met happened to be coldhearted judgemental hypochrites that does not mean all are)

                              Anyway this will be my only post in this thread:


                              Effect of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah on the da’wah of Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab
                              Is there any connection between Shaykh Ibn Taymiyah, the Shaykh al-Islam, and the Wahhaabi movement?.


                              Praise be to Allaah.
                              Firstly:

                              First of all it must be noted that the label “Wahhaabi” was first given to the call of Imam Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab by the enemies of this call, with the aim of putting people off and warning people against it. They try to present it as an odd call with weird ideas, which is extreme in following the ideas of its imam and goes against the way of ahl al-sunnah wa’l-jamaa’ah.

                              It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (2/255):

                              Wahhaabism is a name given by the opponents of Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab (may Allaah have mercy on him) to his call to cleanse Tawheed of all elements of shirk and to abolish all ways except the way of Muhammad ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). What they intend thereby is to put people off his call and block them from what he promoted. But it was not harmed by that, rather it caused it to spread even further and caused more people to come to it whom Allaah guided to look into what the da’wah was all about and what evidence it had from the Qur’aan and Sunnah. So they adhered to it, clung firmly to it and started calling other people to it, praise be to Allaah. End quote.

                              Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him) said in al-Bayaan li Akhta’ Ba’d al-Kuttaab (70):

                              This label is wrong with regard to wording, and with regard to the meaning.

                              With regard to wording, that is because the da’wah is not being attributed to the one who started it, namely Shaykh Muhammad, rather it is being attributed to ‘Abd al-Wahhaab, who had nothing to do with it. The proper name for it would be al-Da’wah al-Muhammadiyyah (“the Muhammadan call”).

                              But these opponents realized that this would be a good name that would not put anyone off, so they changed it to this distorted name.

                              With regard to the meaning, that is because this da’wah did not drift away from the way of the righteous salaf, namely the Sahaabah, Taabi’een and their followers. So it should rightly be called the Salafi da’wah, because the one who founded it did not introduce any innovation in that which was named after him, as the promoters of misguided sects such as the Ismailis and Qarmatiyyah introduced innovations. If those misguided sects had called themselves salafis, the people and the historical record would have rejected this name, because they are outside the path of the salaf and were introduced by their founders.

                              The correct name, both in wording and meaning, for the call of Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab is the Muhammadan da’wah or the Salafi da’wah.

                              But because this name annoys the enemies, they used an incorrect name. Therefore the word Wahhaabi was not known among the followers of the Shaykh, and it is their opponents who gave them this offensive nickname. Indeed, they gave this name to everyone who follows the way of the salaf, even in India, Egypt, Africa and elsewhere. By giving it this label, its opponents wanted to isolate the da’wah from the right path. So they excluded it from the four madhhabs and counted it as a fifth madhhab, “out of envy from their ownselves, even after the truth has become manifest unto them” (al-Baqarah 2:109). End quote.

                              Secondly:

                              The call of Imam Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab in the twelfth century AH was a continuation of the call of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah which appeared in the seventh and eighth centuries AH.

                              The Imam was influenced by it because it was in agreement with the basic principles of Islam with regard to beliefs and rulings. These principles included the following:

                              1- Relying on the Holy Qur’aan and the saheeh Sunnah as the primary sources of legislation

                              2- Keenness to adhere to the way of the righteous salaf, namely the Sahaabah, Taabi’een, the four imams and those who followed them.

                              3- Calling people to Tawheed and rejection of shirk.

                              4- Affirming that which Allaah has affirmed for Himself and denying that which He has denied for Himself with regard to the divine names and attributes.

                              5- Rejection of fanaticism in following imams and calling for adherence to the truth based on evidence.

                              6- Promotion of the Sunnah and fighting innovation.

                              The book was the link between the two imams. Imam Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab paid a great deal of attention to the books of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah and his student Ibn al-Qayyim.

                              ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Abd al-Lateef Aal al-Shaykh said in Mashaaheer ‘Ulama’ Najd wa Ghayrihim (18):

                              He wrote out with his own hand many of the books of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Tayimiyah, and some of them are still extant in the British Museum in London. End quote.

                              Muslim writers and others, such as some of the Orientalists, have pointed in their books to the link between Imam Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab and the da’wah of Shaykh al-Islam.

                              The great scholar Shaykh Ahmad ibn Hajar Aal Bootaami mentioned many statements in his book al-Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab, such as the following:

                              ‘Abd al-Muta’aal al-Sa’eedi said in his book al-Mujaddidoon fi’l-Islam:

                              He started to promote the same message as Ibn Taymiyah before him, of Tawheed and worship of Allaah alone.

                              Al-Ameer Shakeeb Arsalaan said in Part Four of Haadir al-‘Aalim al-Islaami, under the tile Tareekh Najd al-Hadeeth (the history of modern Najd):

                              He had imbibed the principles of al-Haafiz Hujjat al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah … and he started to think of restoring Islam to its former purity. I do not think that he come up with any ideas different from the ideas of Ibn Taymiyah. End quote.

                              Al-Haafiz Wahbah said in his book Jazeerat al-‘Arab:

                              Their teachings are identical to that which was written by Ibn Taymiyah and his student in their books, although they differed with them concerning a few minor issues. End quote.

                              Manhaj Haroon said, refuting the English writer Count Wales:

                              Everything that Shaykh Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab said has been said by others who came before him of imams and scholars, and the noble Sahaabah. He did not go beyond anything that Imam Ahmad and Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on them) had said. End quote.

                              Muhammad Diya’ al-Deen al-Rayyis said:

                              … Ibn Taymiyah is the direct teacher of Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab, even though there were four centuries between them. He read his books and was completely influenced by his teachings. End quote.

                              Brockelmann said in History of the Islamic Peoples:

                              In Baghdad, Muhammad studied the fiqh of Ahmad ibn Hanbal, then he studied the writings of Ahmad ibn Taymiyah who had revived the teachings of Ibn Hanbal in the fourteenth century (CE). In fact his study of the views of these two imams led him to the conclusion that Islam, in the form that was prevalent during his time, especially among the Turks, was mixed with a great deal of incorrect ideas that had nothing to so with the sound Islamic teachings. End quote.

                              Ahmad Ameen said:

                              … In his da’wah and teachings, he followed the example of a great scholar and teacher who had appeared in the seventh century AH at the time of the Sultan al-Naasir, namely Ibn Taymiyah, who believed in ijtihaad and was a free thinker within the limits set by the Qur’aan and Sunnah. It seems that Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab knew of Ibn Taymiyah, who was his imam and leader, and his example, the one who inspired him with regard to ijtihaad and calling for reform. End quote.

                              See: Athar Da’wat Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah fi’l-Harakaat al-Islamiyyah al-Mu’aasirah (1/136-138) by Salaah al-Deen Maqbool.

                              Thirdly:

                              But despite this strong link between the two imams, Imam Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab was a follower of evidence and was not a blind follower of personalities. He understood that Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah was one of the great imams of Islam, but that all humans are prone to error. He understood that Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was not an innovator who introduced a new message that was alien to Islam, rather he was following the way of the righteous salaf and following should be based on evidence and consensus among the imams. But no imam should be followed blindly no matter how great his level of knowledge, rather anyone’s opinion may be accepted or rejected except the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

                              Shaykh al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him) said in al-Bayaan bi’l-Daleel (150), refuting the claim that Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab was nothing but a carbon-copy of Ibn Taymiyah:

                              This is what he said about the academic level of Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab: He did not study anything but the writing of Ibn Taymiyah! It is as if he had not read the biography of the Shaykh and did not know anything about his level of knowledge, or he did know it but he concealed it in order to demean him and to deceive those who knew nothing about the Shaykh.

                              But this does not conceal the truth. Writers have written many books about the Shaykh (may Allaah have mercy on him) that have been published throughout the world and which are known to the elite and common folk alike. He (may Allaah have mercy on him) studied fiqh, hadeeth and usool in depth, including the books of ‘aqeedah that were compiled and written by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah and his student Ibn al-Qayyim. He graduated at the hands of great scholars and imams in various fields in Najd, the Hijaaz, al-Ihsa’ and Basrah. He was granted ijaazahs to narrate from them and convey their knowledge. He studied, issued fatwas and wrote books about fiqh, hadeeth and ‘aqeedah until he earned the admiration of those who gathered around him or listened to his lessons and debates, or who read any of his writings. His writings point to the vastness of his knowledge of Islamic sciences and the depth of his understanding. What he spoke of in those writings was not limited only to the books of Ibn Taymiyah – as those who are ignorant or who pretend to be ignorant think – rather he also quoted the views of prominent imams on fiqh, tafseer and hadeeth, which is indicative of the depth of his knowledge and understanding, and his keen insight. His books that have been printed and are in circulation bear witness to that, praise be to Allaah. He did not quote only the words of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah and ignore the opinions of others, unless he believed Ibn Taymiyah’s view to be stronger on the basis of evidence. In fact, he disagreed with Ibn Taymiyah on some matters of fiqh. End quote.

                              For more information please see the answers to questions no. 36616, 10867 and 12203.

                              Islam Q&A
                              http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/89671/najd%20salafi

                              WS
                              "Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem"
                              Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know to be superior in battle-Flavius Vegetius Renatus

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

                                Originally posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
                                No, you cannot say the same about Saudi, because Abd al-Wahhab's teachings came out of Saudi and are responsible for the hatred amongst the Ummah today and are responsible for the hatred towards Muslims by non-Muslims as well. If Abd al-Wahhab did not bring such teachings which allowed his followers to promote Takfir then I highly doubt there would be so many issues of terrorism and violence within Islam as there is today. What Islamic sect or manhaj has come out of Iraq which has done this on such a scale?

                                I'm not just copying and pasting, I am dealing with the issue that we disagree on where Najd is, you quote some scholars and I quote other scholars, and you have not yet showed your sources as I requested earlier inshallah.

                                In my previous post I quoted a pro-Wahhab source which said this.

                                No, but I have heard of it of course. Have you read it? If so, would you mind quoting from it inshallah?

                                Define classical Ulema inshallah.
                                Have you ever studied the Tareekh of Islam? Where did the Jahmiyyah/mutazilah come from? The Murjiah? etc... They came from Iraq. Go and do you homework.

                                How did Imam Abdul Wahhab teaching came from Al Saud? When Al Saud came after Ibn Wahhab?

                                Give us an example where he promoted Takfeer? What are the principles of Takfeer?

                                Im sorry to say you don't have clue about his life and his works. His movement made an effort to purify Islam by returning Muslims to original principles of Islam, as practised by the Salaf and rejecting corruptions introduced by Bid'ah and Shirk. He destroyed the shrines, do you have a problem with this?

                                IslamOnline - a Wahhabi source? You having a laugh!

                                So you veto the opinions of Imam Nawawi and Imam Ibn Hajar? And whose opinions do you take?

                                Classical Ulema - the first 3/5 centuries of Islam...Give us their interpretation not the scholars of today.

                                Comment

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