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The "Ribs and Backbone" verse

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    The "Ribs and Backbone" verse

    Hello everyone. From time to time, when thinking about Islam, I repeatedly come back to the "Ribs and Backbone" verse. The following is Yusuf Ali's translation:

    Yusuf Ali:
    [086:006] He is created from a drop emitted-
    [086:007] Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs


    A few other translations:

    Sher Ali:
    [086:006] He is created of a gushing fluid,
    [086:007] Which issues forth from between the loins and the breastbones.
    Shakir:
    [086:006] He is created of water pouring forth,
    [086:007] Coming from between the back and the ribs.


    Now, we are offered the challenge to find an error or discrepancy in the Qur'an as that would serve to invalidate it. There are generally two arguments offered by those trying to convince people that Islam is false, they involve the verse quoted above and the tale of "the sun setting in a puddle of mud." The latter isn't much of a concern to me and doesn't seem to be a very strong argument. It is fairly easy to dismiss and isn't the focus of this post.

    However, the other verse, about the origin of man, does cause me some concern. Most of us are well aware where sperm originates, which is definitely not between the ribs and the backbone. If however we consider the liquid through which sperm flows, the vast majority of it is produced in the prostate (25-30%) and seminal vesicle (65-75%). These are found just under the bladder and visible in this image

    Unfortunately, even having considered this, it still doesn't really seem to meet the "between ribs and backbone" requirement (without some imagination).

    So my question to all of you is, have you found compelling arguments that explain this? If so, can you please post links/expand on them for my personal benefit and the benefit of all others that have wondered about this?

    Thanks!

    #2
    Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

    Again and again people misunderstand this.

    He is created from a spurting fluid, then he emerges from between the backbone and the breastbone.

    The second section refers to the PERSON, not the fluid and obviously denotes the positioning of the fœtus in the mother’s womb (between back and breastbone).

    The rest of the verse goes on to describe how, just as he emerges from the womb, man will emerge from the grave on Allah’s command.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

      Astaghfirullaah!

      Stacmon, I noticed in your profile it says you are a Muslim. How then, do you dare refer to an ayah of the Qur'aan, which is the speech of Allaah as, ''that dreaded verse''???

      Please have a little more respect.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

        Originally posted by Abu Haleena View Post
        Astaghfirullaah!

        Stacmon, I noticed in your profile it says you are a Muslim. How then, do you dare refer to an ayah of the Qur'aan, which is the speech of Allaah as, ''that dreaded verse''???

        Please have a little more respect.
        We probably have different understandings of the word "dreaded," but I can assure you that I meant no disrespect with that comment.

        I used the word to stress that this is a common concern raised over and over and that it is one of the few "legitimate" arguments that people can make.

        I appreciate your comments and devotion though, and in the future, I'll avoid using the word.

        Having said that, can anyone confirm Mr ®hizomati©'s point?

        This actually makes a great deal of sense to me, but without being able to read and evaluate the verse myself, I don't know if it is grammatically possible. Can anyone else comment on what he said?

        Thanks a great deal Mr ®hizomati©, that's probably the most useful explanation I've seen so far. Hopefully others can confirm your understanding of the verse! :up:

        Comment


          #5
          Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

          Originally posted by Mr ®hizomati© View Post

          The second section refers to the PERSON, not the fluid and obviously denotes the positioning of the fœtus in the mother’s womb (between back and breastbone).
          But would you say that the uterus is between the spine and the sternum?
          Last edited by Mace; 27-09-07, 09:00 PM. Reason: forgot the "is" in that sentence

          Comment


            #6
            Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

            the womb isnt the uterus is it

            Comment


              #7
              Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

              Originally posted by hammerofthehuns View Post
              the womb isnt the uterus is it
              It is, actually.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

                i dont think so Mace

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

                  Originally posted by hammerofthehuns View Post
                  i dont think so Mace
                  Really? What do you think the womb is then?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

                    the womb is in the mothers tummy somewhere, dont u know anything, oh my gosh.:)

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

                      The womb is the uterus - same thing.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

                        'taxi!'

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

                          lol...ok s'allright.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

                            i thought the womb was like up in the belly somwhere:D

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: That dreaded "Ribs and Backbone" verse

                              Originally posted by Stacmon View Post
                              Hello everyone. From time to time, when thinking about Islam, I repeatedly come back to the "Ribs and Backbone" verse. The following is Yusuf Ali's translation:

                              Yusuf Ali:
                              [086:006] He is created from a drop emitted-
                              [086:007] Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs


                              A few other translations:

                              Sher Ali:
                              [086:006] He is created of a gushing fluid,
                              [086:007] Which issues forth from between the loins and the breastbones.
                              Shakir:
                              [086:006] He is created of water pouring forth,
                              [086:007] Coming from between the back and the ribs.


                              Now, we are offered the challenge to find an error or discrepancy in the Qur'an as that would serve to invalidate it. There are generally two arguments offered by those trying to convince people that Islam is false, they involve the verse quoted above and the tale of "the sun setting in a puddle of mud." The latter isn't much of a concern to me and doesn't seem to be a very strong argument. It is fairly easy to dismiss and isn't the focus of this post.

                              However, the other verse, about the origin of man, does cause me some concern. Most of us are well aware where sperm originates, which is definitely not between the ribs and the backbone. If however we consider the liquid through which sperm flows, the vast majority of it is produced in the prostate (25-30%) and seminal vesicle (65-75%). These are found just under the bladder and visible in this image

                              Unfortunately, even having considered this, it still doesn't really seem to meet the "between ribs and backbone" requirement (without some imagination).

                              So my question to all of you is, have you found compelling arguments that explain this? If so, can you please post links/expand on them for my personal benefit and the benefit of all others that have wondered about this?

                              Thanks!

                              Allahu alam, but if Allah ta ala said so then khalass it is true. one thing i have learnt is that Islam is perfect, if we find anything that doesnt make sense to us, then the only problem is our lack of understanding of the matter. Insha Allah someone can bring u the tafseer, any connected hadith, statements of the companions and the taybiyeen and the explanations based on the daleel from the ulema insha Allah.
                              "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

                              The Prophet :saw: said:

                              "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

                              muslim

                              Narrated 'Abdullah:

                              The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


                              "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

                              By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

                              [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]

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