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'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

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    #76
    Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

    Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
    Yes, right you can argue without false accusation and trying to denigrate other's arguments with these accusations. Like claiming that I tried to pass fiqh and that I said that not teaching your wife is sinful.

    Unfair.

    It is very annoying to speak with people who can not present consistency in their positions - especially when they fail to recognize that themselves - the conversation feels like speaking to brick wall.

    First you said.

    Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
    I was pretty specific with my point about the necessity of literacy, what is it that you don't understand?
    Then you said ..


    Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
    Secondly, please tell me where I said it was sinful for the husband not to teach literacy to his wife.

    I think its very necessary to learn how to write and read in Arabic, especially to learn the deen nowadays. I never said anything about sin. But I said it was encouraged, and secondly, don't lie please when you are arguing, I never made up fatwa and applied fiqh I merely reiterated that it is encouraged to teach a women literacy as it is a rewarded good deed, according to that hadith.
    When 'arguing' with another person the term "Necessary" , literally means that it is obligatory. You contradicted yourself with it's usage , so do not blame me for not understanding you , when you have clearly used language incorrectly.

    The point I have made and I uphold is that when your husband is a scholar he is obviously teaching you and correcting you as you spend time together. People who are illiterate tend to have great memories , and she must have learned much just from being in his presence. As for it being it recommended for her to learn how to read, then I would not necessarily disagree with that. But nevertheless I believe the Ummah has benefited greatly from her efforts , in assisting her husband who has served our community which an immense amount of ilm.

    -------

    Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
    Which scholar said a wife is supposed to serve her husband with household work akhi?
    1) I quoted Ibn Taymiyyah , you did not respond to me with regards to his quote.
    2) I asked "What if he orders her to?" , you did not respond.

    3) A women who marries a scholar knows what she is committing to , and a women with a sound fitrah and imaan - who looks towards the akhirah and not just wordly life - knows that part of assisting your husbands noble occupation is to serve him and not disturb him ( Even more so , then if he was a mechanic or a lawyer ). This is not even up for debate , if you don't acknowledge this then we are on two different planets.

    Comment


      #77
      Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

      Necessary does not mean obligatory
      If your talking in regards to islam u should wait for the wor fardh or obligatory to be said

      Comment


        #78
        Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

        Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
        It is very annoying to speak with people who can not present consistency in their positions - especially when they fail to recognize that themselves - the conversation feels like speaking to brick wall.

        First you said.



        Then you said ..




        When 'arguing' with another person the term "Necessary" , literally means that it is obligatory. You contradicted yourself with it's usage , so do not blame me for not understanding you , when you have clearly used language incorrectly.

        The point I have made and I uphold is that when your husband is a scholar he is obviously teaching you and correcting you as you spend time together. People who are illiterate tend to have great memories , and she must have learned much just from being in his presence. As for it being it recommended for her to learn how to read, then I would not necessarily disagree with that. But nevertheless I believe the Ummah has benefited greatly from her efforts , in assisting her husband who has served our community which an immense amount of ilm.

        -------



        1) I quoted Ibn Taymiyyah , you did not respond to me with regards to his quote.
        2) I asked "What if he orders her to?" , you did not respond.

        3) A women who marries a scholar knows what she is committing to , and a women with a sound fitrah and imaan - who looks towards the akhirah and not just wordly life - knows that part of assisting your husbands noble occupation is to serve him and not disturb him ( Even more so , then if he was a mechanic or a lawyer ). This is not even up for debate , if you don't acknowledge this then we are on two different planets.
        Did I say necessity meant obligation, in fact the rest of my comments did not allude to anything about sin and obligations.

        Necessity clearly meant the fact that its hard to learn about the progress in education (deen or secular) without literacy. How anyone can argue against the necessity of literacy is really odd, especially coming from a perspective of learning about Islam.

        My argument is consistent, yours frequently lingers in assumptions and grey areas. According to the Islamqa fatwa I linked above, the majority of scholars do not see household duties as an obligation.

        I am sure you quoted Islamqa for the Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) quote.

        Yet if you wanted to be fair, you should have been honest that the majority of scholars don't see homemaking as obligatory - according to Islamqa.
        وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

        And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


        أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

        Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


        Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

        Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

        Comment


          #79
          Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

          Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
          Necessary does not mean obligatory
          If your talking in regards to islam u should wait for the wor fardh or obligatory to be said
          http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Necessary

          nec·es·sar·y (nĕs′ĭ-sĕr′ē)
          adj.
          1. Needed or required: a contract complete with the necessary signatures; conditions necessary to life. See Synonyms at indispensable.
          2.
          a. Unavoidably determined by prior conditions or circumstances; inevitable: the necessary results of overindulgence.
          b. Logically inevitable: a necessary conclusion.
          3. Required by obligation, compulsion, or convention: made the necessary apologies.
          n. pl. nec·es·sar·ies
          Something indispensable.

          Comment


            #80
            Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

            Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
            Did I say necessity meant obligation, in fact the rest of my comments did not allude to anything about sin and obligations.

            Necessity clearly meant the fact that its hard to learn about the progress in education (deen or secular) without literacy. How anyone can argue against the necessity of literacy is really odd, especially coming from a perspective of learning about Islam.

            My argument is consistent, yours frequently lingers in assumptions and grey areas. According to the Islamqa fatwa I linked above, the majority of scholars do not see household duties as an obligation.

            I am sure you quoted Islamqa for the Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) quote.

            Yet if you wanted to be fair, you should have been honest that the majority of scholars don't see homemaking as obligatory - according to Islamqa.
            Ok , so allow us to entertain what your views entail.

            The great Shaykh oppressed his wife by making her serve him when that is not obligatory for her , and he prevented her from Islamic knowledge based on her illiteracy. How could an educated scholar ever do such a thing? Did he not know that the only way she could access a sufficient amount of beneficial knowledge in this day and age is through the reading of books? Alhamdulillah that he did eventually recommend her learning how to read - and it is only during this stage where she actually comprehended his Fiqh positions - because she obviously needed to read about his positions , in order to know what his positions actually were. Too bad that she is too old , and the Ilm she taught her children as they were growing up must have been falsehood , because she didn't know how to read , and therefore was ignorant of her husbands scholarly positions.

            Na'am.
            Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 01-11-17, 01:48 AM.

            Comment


              #81
              Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

              Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
              Ok , so allow us to entertain what your views entail.

              The great Shaykh oppressed his wife by making her serve him when that is not obligatory for her , and he prevented her from Islamic knowledge based on her illiteracy. How could an educated scholar ever do such a thing? Did he not know that the only way she could access a sufficient amount of beneficial knowledge in this day and age is through the reading of books? Alhamdulillah that he did eventually recommend her learning how to read - and it is only during this stage where she actually comprehended his Fiqh positions - because she obviously needed to read about his positions , in order to know what his positions actually were. Too bad shes too old , and the Ilm she taught her children as they were growing up must have been falsehood , because she didn't know how to read , and therefore was ignorant of her husbands scholarly positions.

              Na'am.
              The way you worded it is offensive to my argument, which has been echoed by other comments here.

              This is really saddening to see as I thought you were a more respectful and humble individual, but someone disagrees with you - or better yet, someone who you think you can pick on disagrees with you and your real behaviour comes out.

              Lastly, I never said the Shaykh oppressed his wife. I also didn't even think that he prevented his wife from Islamic knowledge, from her comments it seems she wasn't taught to read and write before her marriage.

              I think I've made it very clear from the beginning what my thoughts were on this topic - it doesn't need to be made any clearer, or distorted.
              وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

              And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


              أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

              Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


              Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

              Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

              Comment


                #82
                Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

                Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
                She's required to obey, but that doesn't necessarily mean serving, like house work. Obviously in a relationship you have arrangements for this, but I recall Islamqa concluding that its not an obligation for the wife.

                Which scholar said a wife is supposed to serve her husband with household work akhi?

                Secondly, I had quoted a hadith that encouraged the education of slave girls, honestly if you don't educate your illiterate wife whilst your a renowned teacher/scholar its confusing.
                perfect recipe for divorce.

                No wonder divorce rates are so high in the west , even amongst muslims.



                Comment


                  #83
                  Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

                  What I want to know is in which way did the Shaykh "invest" in his wife during all those years when she was investing all her time, energy and love in serving him and raising his children?

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

                    Originally posted by noobz View Post
                    perfect recipe for divorce.

                    No wonder divorce rates are so high in the west , even amongst muslims.
                    The sentence following makes sense of this, in a relationship you can arrange for stuff like how housework should be done.
                    وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

                    And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


                    أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

                    Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


                    Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

                    Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

                      Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                      http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Necessary

                      nec·es·sar·y (nĕs′ĭ-sĕr′ē)
                      adj.
                      1. Needed or required: a contract complete with the necessary signatures; conditions necessary to life. See Synonyms at indispensable.
                      2.
                      a. Unavoidably determined by prior conditions or circumstances; inevitable: the necessary results of overindulgence.
                      b. Logically inevitable: a necessary conclusion.
                      3. Required by obligation, compulsion, or convention: made the necessary apologies.
                      n. pl. nec·es·sar·ies
                      Something indispensable.
                      I dont care about the dictionary
                      In sharia necessary does not mean fardh

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

                        Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
                        The way you worded it is offensive to my argument, which has been echoed by other comments here.

                        This is really saddening to see as I thought you were a more respectful and humble individual, but someone disagrees with you - or better yet, someone who you think you can pick on disagrees with you and your real behaviour comes out.

                        Lastly, I never said the Shaykh oppressed his wife. I also didn't even think that he prevented his wife from Islamic knowledge, from her comments it seems she wasn't taught to read and write before her marriage.

                        I think I've made it very clear from the beginning what my thoughts were on this topic - it doesn't need to be made any clearer, or distorted.
                        I do not mind anyone disagreeing with me , so long as they present a consistent case with a specific point which is reasoned conclusively.

                        1) It is not Wajib to learn how to read and write.

                        Therefore criticizing the Shaykh is disrespectful of you on multiple grounds.

                        a) It is not a necessity ( i.e obligatory ) , in order to gain sound Islamic Knowledge. ( I guarantee she excels you in Islamic knowledge prior to her elderly years )
                        b) It is a false assumption to assume that the shaykh would not teach her anything of sound Islamic ilm , and she only learned his Fiqh positions in her elderly years ( As you have claimed the possibility yourself ). This idea is so preposterous , that the fact that you yourself do not notice how ridiculous that is only shows that you are a feminist with an objective.

                        2) Regarding a women serving her husband and defining it as 'household chores' I have a few points which are unaddressed.

                        a) It is a position of scholars that she should serve her husband as to the norms of society. Do you know what this means?
                        b) What if her husband commands her to do such? Is she allowed to refuse? (Your refusal to answer this point leaves me wondering)
                        c) In the case of this woman her husband is a scholar. You do not marry a scholar unless you are going to serve him. That's how you assist him. If you don't acknowledge this , you are illogical.
                        Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 01-11-17, 02:14 AM.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

                          Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
                          I dont care about the dictionary
                          In sharia necessary does not mean fardh
                          What is the Arabic translation of "Necessary" ?

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

                            Originally posted by Juwairiyyah View Post
                            What I want to know is in which way did the Shaykh "invest" in his wife during all those years when she was investing all her time, energy and love in serving him and raising his children?
                            Ask the op

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

                              Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                              What is the Arabic translation of "Necessary" ?
                              I dont know u tell me but in sharia in doesnt mean fardh thats for sure

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Re: 'investing' in your wife, an example from the life of sheikh ibn uthaymeen

                                Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
                                I dont know u tell me but in sharia in doesnt mean fardh thats for sure
                                What does Fardh mean in english?

                                (Why you are trying to argue this point is beyond me , but ok )

                                Comment

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