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Level of social stigma with 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages among Western Muslims?

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  • Level of social stigma with 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages among Western Muslims?

    Salam,

    If you are a 2nd generation Western Muslim, do you think it is preferable to marry someone from a different ethnic group to you (e.g. this could be another Western Muslim)? Are Western Muslims generally comfortable with marrying their 2nd or 3rd cousin perhaps from "back home"?

    I heard that it is better to marry within your own ethnic group but not your first cousin. What does everyone think about this? This is because if you marry outside your ethnic group and if one day one of your offspring ever needed a bone marrow transplant, a donor match may be harder to find. So, my question is, would the ideal potential spouse to look out for be someone from within your own ethnic group but not a 1st cousin (genetically speaking for optimum health of offspring)? Where is the healthy boundary to make sure that any offspring you have in the future won't have any birth defects/genetic disorders?

    Do you think 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages are still too close to family and should not be preferred over between non-related people of the same ethnic group or even outside the ethnic group?

    Thanks,
    Voltman
    Last edited by Voltman; 06-10-17, 09:27 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Level of social stigma with 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages among Western Muslims to

    :wswrwb:

    Woooow never ever thought of that before

    That's a new one :1popcorn:

    I don't find people marrying their own cousins weird but I would not have married my cousins and vice versa because too close to home :zzz:

    It's more interesting to find new families but chose same ethnicity because it's easier to find someone and know more about them
    'Whatever it be wherein ye differ, the decision thereof is with Allah: such is Allah my Lord: In Him I trust, and to Him I turn.' The Holy Qu'ran Al Shura (Consultation)

    So, which of the favours of your lord will you deny? ~ Surah Ar Rahman

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Level of social stigma with 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages among Western Muslims to

      Depends on who you talk to,some folks I've met living in Canada would never conceive of marrying anyone BUT their cousins and other more westernized ones think the the idea is repulsive.

      I've noticed more arabs and people from the sub-continent are open to and prefer the idea of marrying cousins but I can also tell who has been marrying there cousins as it does show.

      I'm against the idea of marrrying cousins it as weakens the children considerably and with so many muslims available now the there is no real need for it,it;s not like all the muslims alive now come from a handful of tribes that are inter related to start with. At one time it made sense and was almost unavoidable in some cases but now its not.

      We've learned a thing or two about genetics and inbreeding is a bad idea and there are numerous studies that prove this.

      People like to bring up the arguement that inbreeding benefits domestic animals but fail to mention that many of those inbred animals are Prevented from breeding or are culled(killed off) in order to benefit the desired strain overall. In some breeding programs for every hundred offspring only 1 or 2 are allowed to breed and the rest are killed off. Some programs more and in some less

      Example if two related horses with desirable traits are bred together in order to combined or enforce those desirable traits then one of the offspring MAY show the combined traits but MOST do not and the ones that don't must be culled or neutered.

      Obviously if your child comes out gibbled in some way due to undesirable recessive genes combining your not going to snuff out your child or neuter them are you?
      Last edited by Samsandman; 06-10-17, 11:33 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Level of social stigma with 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages among Western Muslims to

        Originally posted by Samsandman View Post
        Depends on who you talk to,some folks I've met living in Canada would never conceive of marrying anyone BUT their cousins and other more westernized ones think the the idea is repulsive.

        I've noticed more arabs and people from the sub-continent are open to and prefer the idea of marrying cousins but I can also tell who has been marrying there cousins as it does show.

        I'm against the idea of marrrying cousins it as weakens the children considerably and with so many muslims available now the there is no real need for it,it;s not like all the muslims alive now come from a handful of tribes that are inter related to start with. At one time it made sense and was almost unavoidable in some cases but now its not.

        We've learned a thing or two about genetics and inbreeding is a bad idea and there are numerous studies that prove this.

        People like to bring up the arguement that inbreeding benefits domestic animals but fail to mention that many of those inbred animals are Prevented from breeding or are culled(killed off) in order to benefit the desired strain overall. In some breeding programs for every hundred offspring only 1 or 2 are allowed to breed and the rest are killed off. Some programs more and in some less

        Example if two related horses with desirable traits are bred together in order to combined or enforce those desirable traits then one of the offspring MAY show the combined traits but MOST do not and the ones that don't must be culled or neutered.

        Obviously if your child comes out gibbled in some way due to undesirable recessive genes combining your not going to snuff out your child or neuter them are you?
        Most of the time cousin couples produce regular kids, the risk is minimal. It usually hovers around 4-6%.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Level of social stigma with 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages among Western Muslims to

          Originally posted by dsr478 View Post
          Most of the time cousin couples produce regular kids, the risk is minimal. It usually hovers around 4-6%.
          Yes if it's a one off deal and both parties are healthy the risks are not dramatic but still there
          The real problem is some families have ONLY marrying cousins and doing it for centuries so in some communities the rate of rare autosomal recessive genteic disorders is much,much higher.
          there are a couple different scientific studies that have been done and some are ongoing about this problem in the UK,States and Canada.

          the problem is further compounded by the fact that some ethnic groups were practicing cousin married for centuries BEFORE they became muslim. Century after century of inbreeding has it effects and those effects are not pretty.

          When you have husband and wife who only share 4 great grandparents and BOTH are carriers for an autosomal genetic disorder then the rate is not 4-6%,it's 100%.

          A shocking statistic is that pakistani make up 30% of autosomal recessive disorders in the UK in newborns but only 4% of births, so your 4-6% figure is misleading and wrong.

          There is a pakistani couple in Toronto that was having the problem of EVERY SINGLE ONE of their children born had a serious life threatening disease due to their being very closely related. I learned of their situation because of a fund raiser,They had three children who needed round the clock care and what was there solution?

          ask the community for money to treat them and have a fourth one ,who has 100% chance of being born seriously disabled.

          you don't have to believe me, the situation is very well studied and proven.

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4567984/

          It's not a small issue it's a MASSIVE issue with serious consequences.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Level of social stigma with 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages among Western Muslims to

            Originally posted by Samsandman View Post
            Yes if it's a one off deal and both parties are healthy the risks are not dramatic but still there
            The real problem is some families have ONLY marrying cousins and doing it for centuries so in some communities the rate of rare autosomal recessive genteic disorders is much,much higher.
            there are a couple different scientific studies that have been done and some are ongoing about this problem in the UK,States and Canada.

            the problem is further compounded by the fact that some ethnic groups were practicing cousin married for centuries BEFORE they became muslim. Century after century of inbreeding has it effects and those effects are not pretty.

            When you have husband and wife who only share 4 great grandparents and BOTH are carriers for an autosomal genetic disorder then the rate is not 4-6%,it's 100%.

            A shocking statistic is that pakistani make up 30% of autosomal recessive disorders in the UK in newborns but only 4% of births, so your 4-6% figure is misleading and wrong.

            There is a pakistani couple in Toronto that was having the problem of EVERY SINGLE ONE of their children born had a serious life threatening disease due to their being very closely related. I learned of their situation because of a fund raiser,They had three children who needed round the clock care and what was there solution?

            ask the community for money to treat them and have a fourth one ,who has 100% chance of being born seriously disabled.

            you don't have to believe me, the situation is very well studied and proven.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4567984/

            It's not a small issue it's a MASSIVE issue with serious consequences.
            No, it's not a one off thing. These are community studies done on every cousin couple that can be found, they don't distinguish between the regular inbreeders and the guys who do it as a one off.

            Nobody contiously marries their cousin long enough in the family chain for the defect rate to get even as high as 10%, unless other factors are at play. Even then, these statistics are restricted to some few and far between villages who would have been screwed even without the cousin banging since they were isolated from foreign gene flow since BC times.

            The highest defect rate among a community is the Bedouin community in Israel. They've got a nasty 7% defect rate (or at least they did, now it has apparently improved).

            These studies conducted in the UK and what not are often not reliable and go against the normal trend of studies which investigate the effect of cousin banging. The consensus is that it's fine, but not preferable. The world's greatest geneticists have this viewpoint, including Alan Bittles (widely cited as THE global authority in genetics).

            That shocking statistic is hogwash, as are many others. They are derived from certain areas which these communities make up a large proportion of, and it's then painted as if they make up only a small proportion based on their representation throughout the country, rather than in the actual city where the defects are counted. It leads to gross exaggerations.

            Cousin marriages are fine, stop exaggerating with these spurious and ludicrous statistics when the majority don't agree with your viewpoint. They are legal for a reason genius.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Level of social stigma with 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages among Western Muslims to

              I have to ask how old you are as you have the manners of a misbehaved child,
              What are you like eleventeen?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Level of social stigma with 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages among Western Muslims to

                Coming from a family in which a lot of my cousins have married each other, I would say yes it is better to not marry your cousin. A lot of my cousins didn't really have the choice, they were heavily pressured into it and therefore had no other choice but to make it work. the upsides is that its easier but the downside is that - aside from the health factors and genetic disorders that a lot of them can have (a few of my cousins children have been born with problems) there is also the issue of having TOO much family involvement. I mean anytime anything happens literally everyone in their family knows about it and gets too involved. there is a lot more control from the mother-in-law because she is not just the MIL but also biologically the aunty too therefore she still sees you as her niece/nephew first therefore thinks its perfectly ok to hit/get angry at you if you step out of place. then your own mother/father - if younger - usually feels obliged to take their side, saying 'oh shes still your aunty after all'. annoying stuff like that. i've noticed that the relationship they have with their niece-slash-daughter-in-law is always different to the one they have with their daughter-in-law who is not related to them. they are always a lot more respectful around the outsider but a lot more controlling and overbearing to the one who was already from her family. and that is why i have several times rejected proposals from cousins. too much drama man!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Level of social stigma with 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages among Western Muslims to

                  Originally posted by Samsandman View Post
                  I have to ask how old you are as you have the manners of a misbehaved child,
                  What are you like eleventeen?
                  Liars annoy me, particularly when they claim something that can literally ruin people, but turns out not to be true as in your case.

                  Cousin couples have a defect rate usually hovering around 4-6%. Non cousin couples usually have one of about 2-3%.

                  For people in less well off conditions, the non cousin couple can have a defect rate at 4-5%, whilst the cousin couple can have one of 5-8%.

                  Some small villages might get is as high as 10% for their cousin couples since they not only inbreed like crazy, but also live in abominable conditions and the village hasn't had any foreign gene flow since it was established. So these guys are screwed whether or not they marry their cousins since they're all closely related and have to give birth in dirty conditions whilst being malnourished.

                  These are the established facts. Deal with it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Level of social stigma with 2nd and 3rd cousin marriages among Western Muslims to

                    if lying bothers you then you should stop.

                    by your own admission there is a 100% or more increase in birth defects in marriage between cousins and then you say it;s not a big deal.

                    oppressing children to adhere to your cultural beliefs IS a big deal.

                    Maybe as your grow up and become an adult ryou will become wiser,maybe not,we can only hope that you are guided.

                    Comment

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