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  • #46
    Re: How common are European Muslims?

    Originally posted by m7md View Post
    I understand where ur coming from, before i understood it i said exactly the same Q as u the cast system,
    but its to protect the women, i have written on this on other post, and great explanations r available from great scholars online,

    Kufu is more to protect the woman, and to make sure to preserve her dignity etc.
    now u maybe well away that certain professions r not as prestigious as other such as the garbage man etc.. so what this explains is how and in what manner would it be considered that the woman is marring someone from above her standard or lower then her standard in worldly terms. As no woman likes to marry from lower standard then hers.

    Now this is not a rule but rather a guide to help choose the best for the woman.
    Its similar to how u will lend ur money to someone, if one is unknown in the financial capacity ur unlikely to lend him, if one is new in town u also may not lend him big amounts, if one has poor repetition in money matters u also wont lend him.

    With kufu its to do with the womans honor so all things that may affect her honor and respect are looked upon.

    and its also to help in many other issues, such as mahr etc.
    u have to understand deen more before u come to grips with this , its not based on looking down on people but rather as a precaution,
    those who oppose it , well go ask them to lend u money they wont, coz they dont trust u, but its surprising they will be willing to marry their daughter, sister to someone they dont even trust with money, well maybe not, they just blind follow what they have been told.

    so similar example is, when u cannot lend a man money, then how can u expect one to marry their daughter or sister to them?

    And even if the word kufu didnt exist, its implications and practices is well embedded in every culture muslim or non muslim even from the early days of islam, so just naming it and discussing it doesnt change the reality.
    Even if u declare it to be 100% wrong, when one comes to marry ur daughter u will still likely use elements of it intentionally or unintentionally.

    Best example I can give is that of lending money, one with great reputation and great family reputation in finance and paying back loans, u wont hesitate to loan them any amount v.s. one with bad reputation
    The same way if in a family women r treated nicely, they r known to be close to deen, have higher status and respect is directly opposite to one who doesnt have such.

    hope u understand now,
    I understand the socioeconomic class system in every society and honestly even if there was no concept of kufu in Islam it would still be practised. But from the little I read about kufu it looks like it makes recommendations along the racial lines too. It seems to have classified Muslims into two different races, Arabs and non-Arabs. And the guidelines pertaining to racial considerations in marriage is geared towards declaring Arabs are the most superior race and all other Muslims of non-Arab background are no allowed to marry Arab women. But strangely Arab men are allowed to marry non-Arab women and bless them with their noble sperm.

    When I say it is similar to the concept of caste system of Hinduism, I am referring to the racial guidelines in marriage, not the socioeconomic guidelines.

    A careful look into the racial guidelines will tell a pragmatic man that it has come from nationalist pride etc, specially during the umayyad when they declared Arabs as the aristocracy and charged jizya from non-Arab Muslims and marriage with non-Arab Muslims.

    My question to [MENTION=113309]Linkdeutscher[/MENTION] was mainly around if the concept of kufu is innovated or not since he seems to have claimed it.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: How common are European Muslims?

      Originally posted by Akash Lina View Post
      Linkie

      Can you explain to me kufu please, seems you have knowledge in this area?

      Also if you can please tell how is Islam (with the concept of kufu) different from cast system of Hinduism?
      Whom did Zaynab :RAA: marry before marrying Rasoolallah :saw:? It's pretty simple really, these people still haven't gotten over their racism and have tried to push it into Islaam.
      You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

      You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: How common are European Muslims?

        Originally posted by m7md View Post
        I understand where ur coming from, before i understood it i said exactly the same Q as u the cast system,
        but its to protect the women, i have written on this on other post, and great explanations r available from great scholars online,

        Kufu is more to protect the woman, and to make sure to preserve her dignity etc.
        now u maybe well away that certain professions r not as prestigious as other such as the garbage man etc.. so what this explains is how and in what manner would it be considered that the woman is marring someone from above her standard or lower then her standard in worldly terms. As no woman likes to marry from lower standard then hers.

        Now this is not a rule but rather a guide to help choose the best for the woman.
        Its similar to how u will lend ur money to someone, if one is unknown in the financial capacity ur unlikely to lend him, if one is new in town u also may not lend him big amounts, if one has poor repetition in money matters u also wont lend him.

        With kufu its to do with the womans honor so all things that may affect her honor and respect are looked upon.

        and its also to help in many other issues, such as mahr etc.
        u have to understand deen more before u come to grips with this , its not based on looking down on people but rather as a precaution,
        those who oppose it , well go ask them to lend u money they wont, coz they dont trust u, but its surprising they will be willing to marry their daughter, sister to someone they dont even trust with money, well maybe not, they just blind follow what they have been told.

        so similar example is, when u cannot lend a man money, then how can u expect one to marry their daughter or sister to them?

        And even if the word kufu didnt exist, its implications and practices is well embedded in every culture muslim or non muslim even from the early days of islam, so just naming it and discussing it doesnt change the reality.
        Even if u declare it to be 100% wrong, when one comes to marry ur daughter u will still likely use elements of it intentionally or unintentionally.

        Best example I can give is that of lending money, one with great reputation and great family reputation in finance and paying back loans, u wont hesitate to loan them any amount v.s. one with bad reputation
        The same way if in a family women r treated nicely, they r known to be close to deen, have higher status and respect is directly opposite to one who doesnt have such.

        hope u understand now,
        Yes we understand very well it has nothing to do with Islaam, your caste version of kufu that is.
        You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

        You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: How common are European Muslims?

          Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
          Whom did Zaynab :RAA: marry before marrying Rasoolallah :saw:? It's pretty simple really, these people still haven't gotten over their racism and have tried to push it into Islaam.
          Ok thanks.

          Who are the ulama who approved of kufu and who are the ulama who explicitly refuted the system of kufu? Is it possible for you to give some quotes?

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: How common are European Muslims?

            Lots of them in eastern Europe, very few in the western side who are mainly converts. Populated Muslims in the Balkan = Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia, Montenegro and Southern Bulgaria. Lots of Russian Muslims (Caucasus, Tatars etc as well).

            But the problem is that their Deen is very weak because they were long subjugated by Soviet influence and communism. The Muslim converts are usually the ones who are closer to Deen.

            As for Mediterranean/Southern Europeans, lots in southern Spain but very rare to find native Muslims from the rest of the region.
            Last edited by Achilles; 29-06-16, 11:00 AM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: How common are European Muslims?

              Originally posted by Akash Lina View Post
              I understand the socioeconomic class system in every society and honestly even if there was no concept of kufu in Islam it would still be practised. But from the little I read about kufu it looks like it makes recommendations along the racial lines too. It seems to have classified Muslims into two different races, Arabs and non-Arabs. And the guidelines pertaining to racial considerations in marriage is geared towards declaring Arabs are the most superior race and all other Muslims of non-Arab background are no allowed to marry Arab women. But strangely Arab men are allowed to marry non-Arab women and bless them with their noble sperm.

              When I say it is similar to the concept of caste system of Hinduism, I am referring to the racial guidelines in marriage, not the socioeconomic guidelines.

              A careful look into the racial guidelines will tell a pragmatic man that it has come from nationalist pride etc, specially during the umayyad when they declared Arabs as the aristocracy and charged jizya from non-Arab Muslims and marriage with non-Arab Muslims.

              My question to [MENTION=113309]Linkdeutscher[/MENTION] was mainly around if the concept of kufu is innovated or not since he seems to have claimed it.
              It does so as u say based on various things, such as in non arab families there r various hindu traditions such as taking money from the girl etc.. its based on that, not on race. There is still clear difference how arab view many Quranic laws and accept them from heart vs non arabs, such as in the case of polygamy and many more, so this is a clear difference, also arabs give out lots of charity etc..
              There is no such thing as arab women not allowed to marry a non arab man.

              It did not come from that ear, it was written about perhaps in that ear as u say.
              We r not allowed to look down on anyone as hindus do , thats so different, this is as a precaution..

              I was giving u an example from socioeconomics to help u understand.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: How common are European Muslims?

                Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                Yes we understand very well it has nothing to do with Islaam, your caste version of kufu that is.
                Well very senior scholars write about it, how do u know if something is islam or not.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: How common are European Muslims?

                  Originally posted by m7md View Post
                  Well very senior scholars write about it, how do u know if something is islam or not.
                  Very senior scholars also said nikah tahleel is valid, doesn't mean it's part of Islam. I know because Allah didn't make His deen some kind of locked secret where you cannot differentiate between truth and falsehood.
                  You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                  You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: How common are European Muslims?

                    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                    Very senior scholars also said nikah tahleel is valid, doesn't mean it's part of Islam. I know because Allah didn't make His deen some kind of locked secret where you cannot differentiate between truth and falsehood.
                    Ok if I take ur version, then please provide me evidence for the words of the prophet to be divided in to different categories? and y is that not a bidah?
                    sahih
                    hasan
                    daheef
                    etc.. ??
                    when imams of hadith sort hadith the make laws to sort hadith, provide evidence for those laws?
                    If Allah did not make his deen a secret then where is the source for those rules from Quran and sunnah?
                    so then should some hadith be graded as sahih and others daheef based on some scholars ? How did those scholars unlock the secret of differentiate then?

                    How come u dont question this in the same manner, or is that u blind follow what ur imams tell u and have no capacity to think beyond.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: How common are European Muslims?

                      Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                      Very senior scholars also said nikah tahleel is valid, doesn't mean it's part of Islam. I know because Allah didn't make His deen some kind of locked secret where you cannot differentiate between truth and falsehood.
                      Waiting for daleel on comment # 54
                      Those who u blind follow haven't given u any recordings to copy past for this question thinking of ur self as a great independent self thinker lol
                      Or is it that those who u follow r somehow superior so when they innovate something it's perfectly sharia compliant and anyone else does then he blind follow?
                      Now common since u don't blind think for urself lol

                      Don't u see innovation here, or will u blind follow someone on declaring what's innovation and bidah or not ?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: How common are European Muslims?

                        Originally posted by m7md View Post
                        Ok if I take ur version, then please provide me evidence for the words of the prophet to be divided in to different categories? and y is that not a bidah?
                        sahih
                        hasan
                        daheef
                        etc.. ??
                        when imams of hadith sort hadith the make laws to sort hadith, provide evidence for those laws?
                        If Allah did not make his deen a secret then where is the source for those rules from Quran and sunnah?
                        so then should some hadith be graded as sahih and others daheef based on some scholars ? How did those scholars unlock the secret of differentiate then?

                        How come u dont question this in the same manner, or is that u blind follow what ur imams tell u and have no capacity to think beyond.
                        Because there is ijmaa' on the science of hadeeth, and ijmaa' is hujjah. Go play your little games with someone else.
                        You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                        You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: How common are European Muslims?

                          Originally posted by m7md View Post
                          Waiting for daleel on comment # 54
                          Those who u blind follow haven't given u any recordings to copy past for this question thinking of ur self as a great independent self thinker lol
                          Or is it that those who u follow r somehow superior so when they innovate something it's perfectly sharia compliant and anyone else does then he blind follow?
                          Now common since u don't blind think for urself lol

                          Don't u see innovation here, or will u blind follow someone on declaring what's innovation and bidah or not ?
                          Don't write such complicated posts which I can't understand.

                          Just answer these questions, can there be misguidance in the deen of Allah or not, and can scholars preach misguidance or not? If yes, then is a layman capable of protecting himself from this misguidance or not?
                          You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                          You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: How common are European Muslims?

                            Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                            Because there is ijmaa' on the science of hadeeth, and ijmaa' is hujjah. Go play your little games with someone else.
                            Please provide daleel for ijmaa, and daleel for it being hujja?
                            this is what who u blind follow told u lol no go ask him for daleel on ijmaa

                            and one more thing, what is the ruling if someone breaks away from ijmaa? according to u or the one who u blindly follow.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: How common are European Muslims?

                              Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                              Don't write such complicated posts which I can't understand.

                              Just answer these questions, can there be misguidance in the deen of Allah or not, and can scholars preach misguidance or not? If yes, then is a layman capable of protecting himself from this misguidance or not?
                              Sure but first lets clarify y classifying hadith is not a bidah, what is the evidence for its sorting process?
                              u say ijmaa, what is the daleel for ijmaa? as i posed above,

                              dont play these games with me of diverting attention

                              Comment

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