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Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

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  • nonameakhi
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
    it's not a matter of what I'm happier with, it's a matter of what is correct and more in keeping with the Quran and sunnah. Insha'Allaah I'll collect my evidences and you do likewise and we'll discuss this more at a later date.
    no problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gingerbeardman
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
    Let me ask you a question if it was your family and a sister came to you and said I have received a proposal and its a good proposal but dad says no because of tribe or something, would yoy be happier her coming to you or going straight to an outsider even a qaadi?
    it's not a matter of what I'm happier with, it's a matter of what is correct and more in keeping with the Quran and sunnah. Insha'Allaah I'll collect my evidences and you do likewise and we'll discuss this more at a later date.

    Leave a comment:


  • nonameakhi
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
    Actually I didn't disagree with that point, I agree it's a process of father, grandfather, brothers, paternal uncles etc. The difference is over the process of how this change takes place.

    Does it require someone in authority to change this role of guardianship in matters of marriage or does the sister just need herself to feel her father is being unreasonable?

    This is our difference
    Let me ask you a question if it was your family and a sister came to you and said I have received a proposal and its a good proposal but dad says no because of tribe or something, would yoy be happier her coming to you or going straight to an outsider even a qaadi?

    Leave a comment:


  • nonameakhi
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
    Actually I didn't disagree with that point, I agree it's a process of father, grandfather, brothers, paternal uncles etc. The difference is over the process of how this change takes place.

    Does it require someone in authority to change this role of guardianship in matters of marriage or does the sister just need herself to feel her father is being unreasonable?

    This is our difference
    Its always going to be the sisters view initially isnt it? whether she goes to qaadi or not is secondary in that aspect

    so say a man has approached and is a good muslim etc an father says no and his reason is not islamic and he wont change hiis stance then that is suffcient

    I will add hhere that a father who remains adamant and has been dropped from wali status (however that occurred qadi or grandfather/brother etc) should be told of when teh nikah is taking place and be invited whether he turns up or not. It cant be in secret from him generally

    Leave a comment:


  • Gingerbeardman
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
    I dont see what is hard to grasp? the ulema quotes are that if her wali, who is the father in all case, is being unreasonable then the first point of call for her is her Grandfather then brothers, paternal uncles, maternal uncles and finally a qaadi if there is an islamic authority (ot teh mosaue mullahs etc these days as per my points earlier)

    You are suggesting if father says no its straight to qaadi, I am saying if father says no then qaadi is last resort as he has no guardianship in this case.
    I have backed this up with quotes from ulema

    Now please if you disagree bring your daleel that its straight to qaadi
    Actually I didn't disagree with that point, I agree it's a process of father, grandfather, brothers, paternal uncles etc. The difference is over the process of how this change takes place.

    Does it require someone in authority to change this role of guardianship in matters of marriage or does the sister just need herself to feel her father is being unreasonable?

    This is our difference

    Leave a comment:


  • nonameakhi
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
    none of the quotes you show here are actually contradicting what is considered the orthodox position, that guardianship is with the father, then if he refuses with no good cause the islamic authority, i.e the qadi etc can move to the grandfather, then the paternal brothers, uncles etc, and if none of them agree or are available guardianship passes to the qadi / islamic authority.

    This is where I am finding it hard to accept your position, you've brought something strange and unknown, not being something I've heard discussing this with any scholar or student of knowledge but I will next time ask if there is a minority view similar to your's at the next opportunity I have when this topic comes up.

    As I said before, what you are proposing will lead to nothing less than destruction of family after family, with the marriage bandits having their way far more often than not.
    I dont see what is hard to grasp? the ulema quotes are that if her wali, who is the father in all case, is being unreasonable then the first point of call for her is her Grandfather then brothers, paternal uncles, maternal uncles and finally a qaadi if there is an islamic authority (ot teh mosaue mullahs etc these days as per my points earlier)

    You are suggesting if father says no its straight to qaadi, I am saying if father says no then qaadi is last resort as he has no guardianship in this case.
    I have backed this up with quotes from ulema

    Now please if you disagree bring your daleel that its straight to qaadi.

    Lets say she does go to the qaadi, he has to go to the next wali anyway so grandfather for example
    Last edited by nonameakhi; 27-01-16, 01:22 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gingerbeardman
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
    First of all akhie the issue is unreasonable wali not unreasonable girl, we take the info we have and I am clear when responding on these issues that I write along the lines of ''if what you say is true'' and give the general ruling. So a wali being unreasonable can be ''dropped''. Secondly the advice is go to another family member, so after father its brother.

    Now teh Islamic authourity bit. Most mosque mullahs dont know what they are talking about and I have seen many times beaten women being told to show patience. Often due to not wishing to lose their jobs or riling the committee. I would say that may are oppressive on thee issues

    Now the daleel issue. I had assumed you would know that if a father is being unreasoable then a girl has to go to her grandfather, brothers uncles and then a qaadi. which I am sure I have given you before but anyways.

    Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ibraaheem (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “When a woman reaches the age of puberty, if there comes to you one with whose religious commitment and character she is pleased and who is compatible, and the wali does not have any proof that he is not compatible, then the wali has to respond to his request and marry her to him. If he refuses to do so, then his responsibilities towards his charge should be pointed out to him. If he still insists on refusing after that, then he forfeits the right of guardianship and it passes to the next closest relative on the father’s side.”

    From the Shaykh’s Fataawa, 10/97.

    Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

    If the wali refused to let a woman marry a man whose religious commitment and character are good, then guardianship passes to the next closest male relative on the father’s side, then the next closest and so on. If they refuse to arrange her marriage, as usually happens, then guardianship passes to the qaadi, and the qaadi should arrange the woman’s marriage.

    Fataawa Islamiyyah, 3/148.

    What you have to understand is that a mosque imam is not a guardian of a woman so he cant be the first step after father, teh first step has to be legitimate walis and imam comes into play if ALL are being unjust

    did you know Imam Ahmad ra said the person refusing repeatedly cannot lead a prayer and other ulema have said he is faasiq? with regards to wali refusing marriage to a suitable suitor with no genuine reason
    none of the quotes you show here are actually contradicting what is considered the orthodox position, that guardianship is with the father, then if he refuses with no good cause the islamic authority, i.e the qadi etc can move to the grandfather, then the paternal brothers, uncles etc, and if none of them agree or are available guardianship passes to the qadi / islamic authority.

    This is where I am finding it hard to accept your position, you've brought something strange and unknown, not being something I've heard discussing this with any scholar or student of knowledge but I will next time ask if there is a minority view similar to your's at the next opportunity I have when this topic comes up.

    As I said before, what you are proposing will lead to nothing less than destruction of family after family, with the marriage bandits having their way far more often than not.

    Leave a comment:


  • zi-zizou
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by Spartakos View Post
    Salam to all of ya.
    So there is a Indonesian girl that i've been talking about for like a year, and i contacted through her wali (Not dad cus he died) which is his Brother.
    He asked me about documents and such like if i am clear from police and involved in crimes, or if i really work, and if i am really muslim etc..

    So i sent him everything, he at first was like ''I was in dubai and i saw muslim couple touch ass in restaurant and they call themselves muslims''
    For that reason he didn't seem to trust me, then he is like ''Why don't u marry syrian refugee's girl to marry? why indonesian??"
    and i said i dont search specifically it just happened that i found her sister and we are both interested ..

    So after i completely send every info he needed he keept ignoring me, i keept asking to him and he keeps ignoring lol.

    Thing is, her sister (which i want to marry) is interested to get married with me.
    Second, she already told me that her connection with her brother is always difficult, and he doesn't let her go out of her country to work or something like that.
    she is 26... her mom knows about me, her sister also and her uncle aswell, and they agree that we should arrange the marriage etc..

    Now i am not sure what to do, cuz her dad is not alive anymore, her bro is really no idea what he is thinking rejecting without Islamic reason is'nt really a rejection..
    and i am aware that her Wali its her brother now... and i really dont wanna go there and have trouble with him and no idea what else can happen...

    so what u think?

    jazak allah khairan.

    :wswrwb:

    Are you in the same country as the brother and potential?

    Maybe he is still doing some background checks on you. I don't think it would be unreasonable for this to take some time.

    :jkk:

    Leave a comment:


  • nonameakhi
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
    First of all, where is the daleel for such a position? Seriously bro, you said something similar before and I asked them because I don't see any.

    secondly, how exactly is it to be determined that the man is being unreasonable? of-course if a sister sees her plans being disrupted she's going to see it as unreasonable, but she is biased, hence the need for an islamic authority to step in and make that decision.

    your way is a recipe for a free for all where only the marriage bandits will prosper and many families in the community will be ruined.
    First of all akhie the issue is unreasonable wali not unreasonable girl, we take the info we have and I am clear when responding on these issues that I write along the lines of ''if what you say is true'' and give the general ruling. So a wali being unreasonable can be ''dropped''. Secondly the advice is go to another family member, so after father its brother.

    Now teh Islamic authourity bit. Most mosque mullahs dont know what they are talking about and I have seen many times beaten women being told to show patience. Often due to not wishing to lose their jobs or riling the committee. I would say that may are oppressive on thee issues

    Now the daleel issue. I had assumed you would know that if a father is being unreasoable then a girl has to go to her grandfather, brothers uncles and then a qaadi. which I am sure I have given you before but anyways.

    Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ibraaheem (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “When a woman reaches the age of puberty, if there comes to you one with whose religious commitment and character she is pleased and who is compatible, and the wali does not have any proof that he is not compatible, then the wali has to respond to his request and marry her to him. If he refuses to do so, then his responsibilities towards his charge should be pointed out to him. If he still insists on refusing after that, then he forfeits the right of guardianship and it passes to the next closest relative on the father’s side.”

    From the Shaykh’s Fataawa, 10/97.

    Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

    If the wali refused to let a woman marry a man whose religious commitment and character are good, then guardianship passes to the next closest male relative on the father’s side, then the next closest and so on. If they refuse to arrange her marriage, as usually happens, then guardianship passes to the qaadi, and the qaadi should arrange the woman’s marriage.

    Fataawa Islamiyyah, 3/148.

    What you have to understand is that a mosque imam is not a guardian of a woman so he cant be the first step after father, teh first step has to be legitimate walis and imam comes into play if ALL are being unjust

    did you know Imam Ahmad ra said the person refusing repeatedly cannot lead a prayer and other ulema have said he is faasiq? with regards to wali refusing marriage to a suitable suitor with no genuine reason

    Leave a comment:


  • Spartakos
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    I will try to find good Imam/Sheikh from indonesia that i can explain the situation and in shaa allah to contact her brother and talk to him atleast from then on allahu alim.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gingerbeardman
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
    I dont believe that route to be a necessity bro. Its about a wali being unreasonable without Islamic reasoning. In that scenario she can approach another of her relatives without going to an external source

    As for trusted qadi etc thats harder than finding a spouse these days in masjids
    First of all, where is the daleel for such a position? Seriously bro, you said something similar before and I asked them because I don't see any.

    secondly, how exactly is it to be determined that the man is being unreasonable? of-course if a sister sees her plans being disrupted she's going to see it as unreasonable, but she is biased, hence the need for an islamic authority to step in and make that decision.

    your way is a recipe for a free for all where only the marriage bandits will prosper and many families in the community will be ruined.

    Leave a comment:


  • nonameakhi
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
    bro, that is not her decision to make, a woman cannot just change the wali because she doesn't like his decision, it has to done by those in authority, i.e the qadi in a Muslim country or a shariah council / trustworthy sheikh in the west.
    I dont believe that route to be a necessity bro. Its about a wali being unreasonable without Islamic reasoning. In that scenario she can approach another of her relatives without going to an external source

    As for trusted qadi etc thats harder than finding a spouse these days in masjids

    Leave a comment:


  • Spartakos
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Jazak allah khairan again to all of ya, love ya alot =]

    Leave a comment:


  • Gingerbeardman
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by Spartakos View Post
    Salam to all of ya.
    So there is a Indonesian girl that i've been talking about for like a year, and i contacted through her wali (Not dad cus he died) which is his Brother.
    He asked me about documents and such like if i am clear from police and involved in crimes, or if i really work, and if i am really muslim etc..

    So i sent him everything, he at first was like ''I was in dubai and i saw muslim couple touch ass in restaurant and they call themselves muslims''
    For that reason he didn't seem to trust me, then he is like ''Why don't u marry syrian refugee's girl to marry? why indonesian??"
    and i said i dont search specifically it just happened that i found her sister and we are both interested ..

    So after i completely send every info he needed he keept ignoring me, i keept asking to him and he keeps ignoring lol.

    Thing is, her sister (which i want to marry) is interested to get married with me.
    Second, she already told me that her connection with her brother is always difficult, and he doesn't let her go out of her country to work or something like that.
    she is 26... her mom knows about me, her sister also and her uncle aswell, and they agree that we should arrange the marriage etc..

    Now i am not sure what to do, cuz her dad is not alive anymore, her bro is really no idea what he is thinking rejecting without Islamic reason is'nt really a rejection..
    and i am aware that her Wali its her brother now... and i really dont wanna go there and have trouble with him and no idea what else can happen...

    so what u think?

    jazak allah khairan.
    Wa alaykumus salaam,

    brother we get new Muslims with this same problem, normally between about 6 and 8 a year and so far in almost every case the wali backs down in the woman sticks to her decision, or when elders are sent in to talk to him and explain the error of his ways so it's best her mother and uncle speak to him.

    However I will give you the same advice I give those revert brothers, which is sometimes it's better to let matters go, remember the wording of the dua in istikhara that you ask Allaah for the following:


    Now Allaah is making the matter difficult for you, He has answered your du'a at this point, so how long do you pursue this before you start listening to the answer He has given?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gingerbeardman
    replied
    Re: Question about ''Unreasonable'' Wali?

    Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
    She can choose a different wali if she thinks he is unreasonable

    Can I just say though brother, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, if I was him and found out you both wanted to get married I would be unhappy as I should have been your first point of call

    I am not suggesting you did anything untoward here, just going by what you wrote some contact has taken place for both of you to be wanting this marriage, now it may have been third party rather than direct but still
    bro, that is not her decision to make, a woman cannot just change the wali because she doesn't like his decision, it has to done by those in authority, i.e the qadi in a Muslim country or a shariah council / trustworthy sheikh in the west.

    Leave a comment:

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