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  • #16
    Re: A difficult decision...

    Originally posted by khavar View Post
    There is a difference of opinion among the Ulema if you can marry with intent to divorce later, so its 50/50 not totally disallowed.

    Either case i do not have "intention of divorce" i just see it as a likely possibility.

    I will not stipulate a fixed period (i.e. 1 month, 6 month, 18 months) during Nikah so it cannot be Muta/Temporary marriage.

    There is no deceit, there is no betrayal, the woman will know my circumstances and intention to go abroad - she will have over 12 months
    to decide what she wants to do.

    Sorry to state the obvious, but outside of very pious Islamic circles, majority of women marry because of companionship and Mahr (wealth) they gain, and
    majority of men marry for companionship and physical side of a relationship. That is the way human relationships have gone on for 1000's of years, and i
    dont think it will chang any time soon.
    It is not very likely you will find a woman that will agree to this...

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: A difficult decision...

      Originally posted by khavar View Post
      This is a valid criticism and i have thought about it, but at the end of the day there are two reasons i have to compromise here.

      The first is that "chaste" cannot be measured. You cannot measure things like taqwa, imaan etc. You could marry a man/woman from a good family
      and they turn out to be a total shaytaan later in life, even some of the Prophets (pbut) were married to women who turned out to be evil, like the wives of
      Nuh and Lut if i remember right.

      Also even if i marry a average cultural Muslim that grew up in the West many of them are not much different from non-muslims i regret to say. There are muslims
      who go clubbing, go drinking, wear immodest clothes etc

      So i am working with limited options. In a ideal world, i would have been born in the land i wish to migrate too, and i would have a wife and 3 kids by now probably but
      as i said earlier we are not living in a ideal world.
      As i said in another post yes chastity is complicated and cannot be measured. But generally we believe the best of people and by default assume they are chaste unless they give us reason not to. So if you meet said woman and you know she has had boyfriends, is dressed very inappropriately, based on her mannerisms with you, etc. you can surely make a judgement no?

      Re your comment on average cultural muslims in the west - i think that is wholly inappropriate. Yes some partake in the things you mentioned but certainly not most. Most 'cultural' families are actually v strict on what their girls can do. There are muslimahs in muslim lands that get up to all sorts so not sure how useful your generalisation is.

      I'm just worried that you seem to be making a lot of decisions that you yourself see as 'compromises'. Are you sure that your yearning for companionship is not leading you to actions that you will regret and that you are compromising your deen and character in looking for loopholes and quick fixes?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: A difficult decision...

        Originally posted by Hadid View Post
        So a christian woman can repent and it will be accepted?

        The bolded part is what I was asking.
        I have absolutely no idea :D
        If you find out can you let me know thanks?

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: A difficult decision...

          Originally posted by Sabros View Post
          I have absolutely no idea :D
          If you find out can you let me know thanks?
          What are you planning...

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: A difficult decision...

            Originally posted by Sabros View Post
            As i said in another post yes chastity is complicated and cannot be measured. But generally we believe the best of people and by default assume they are chaste unless they give us reason not to. So if you meet said woman and you know she has had boyfriends, is dressed very inappropriately, based on her mannerisms with you, etc. you can surely make a judgement no?

            Re your comment on average cultural muslims in the west - i think that is wholly inappropriate. Yes some partake in the things you mentioned but certainly not most. Most 'cultural' families are actually v strict on what their girls can do. There are muslimahs in muslim lands that get up to all sorts so not sure how useful your generalisation is.

            I'm just worried that you seem to be making a lot of decisions that you yourself see as 'compromises'. Are you sure that your yearning for companionship is not leading you to actions that you will regret and that you are compromising your deen and character in looking for loopholes and quick fixes?
            My comment regarding Muslims in West is based on my observations, yours may be different. For me when i walk down a high street in UK and you see a British non-Muslim wearing certain clothes, and certain hairstyle and 2 minutes later you see a Asian/Muslim guy with the same hair style and same clothe fashion it makes you wonder if there is any difference, and when you see a non-Muslim woman walking down the road and she is wearing immodest clothing and then you see a Muslim girl dressed the same the only difference really is that one is called Jane and has blonde hair and the other has is called Aisha and has black hair, one watches Eastenders and watches Hollywood movies, the other watches Asian Dramas and Bollywood movies, what is in their hearts - how much taqwa they have etc is something i cannot comment on.

            Your right i am compromising aspects of deen and character for the sake of companionship, but the alternative is zina.

            I am trying to calculate in my head what will bring more punishment in Akhirah, a) several zinas a month for 18 months vs b) Some sort of Marriage with 1 girl over the same period.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: A difficult decision...

              Originally posted by khavar View Post
              My comment regarding Muslims in West is based on my observations, yours may be different. For me when i walk down a high street in UK and you see a British non-Muslim wearing certain clothes, and certain hairstyle and 2 minutes later you see a Asian/Muslim guy with the same hair style and same clothe fashion it makes you wonder if there is any difference, and when you see a non-Muslim woman walking down the road and she is wearing immodest clothing and then you see a Muslim girl dressed the same the only difference really is that one is called Jane and has blonde hair and the other has is called Aisha and has black hair, one watches Eastenders and watches Hollywood movies, the other watches Asian Dramas and Bollywood movies, what is in their hearts - how much taqwa they have etc is something i cannot comment on.

              Your right i am compromising aspects of deen and character for the sake of companionship, but the alternative is zina.

              I am trying to calculate in my head what will bring more punishment in Akhirah, a) several zinas a month for 18 months vs b) Some sort of Marriage with 1 girl over the same period.
              I refuse to accept this. Islam is the perfect religion with solutions to all our problems. This is a test for you but I refuse to accept that your only islamic solution is either zina or a really dodgy nikah that might not even be properly valid!

              Have you fully 100 percent tried finding a muslim woman to get married? Have you asked all your friends and acquaintances to put the word out? Have you been to as many mosques and imaams as you can? Have you signed up to the more legit online islamic marriage websites? Have you signed up to islamic marriage agencies?

              Furthermore where do you genuinely hope to find such a woman?

              Chaste practising woman of ahl kitab (ok so you are happy to compromise of the chaste element. now how many practising jews or christians would marry a muslim? or do you intend to compromise on this as well and just choose one who goes church at christmas time to listen to the carols or one who nomially says she is a cultural christian/jew?".

              Now, 'how' do you intend to find this woman? As in you can't just go to someone on the street or work and be like 'marry me?'
              Do you intend to start free mixing and getting friendly with non muslim women, etc, until you can bring up marriage topic?

              Furthermore, will this be a secret marriage? Will you tell your friends and community? What happens when she wants to go out clubbing, drinking, etc. As her husband you have responsibility over her.

              I just think there a lot more hassles in marrying a woman from ahl kitab than it seems at first.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: A difficult decision...

                Originally posted by Hadid View Post
                What are you planning...
                ...hehe

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: A difficult decision...

                  what makes you think a Christian woman will agree to marry you after telling her your plans?

                  your idea is crazy, I hope you don't actually go through with it
                  "O you who have believed, shall I guide you to a transaction that will save you from a painful punishment?
                  (It is that) you believe in Allah and His Messenger and strive in the cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives. That is best for you, if you should know.
                  He will forgive for you your sins and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow and pleasant dwellings in gardens of perpetual residence. That is the great attainment"
                  .


                  "And (you will obtain) another (favour) that you love - victory from Allah and an imminent conquest; and give good tidings to the believers"
                  .

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    A difficult decision...

                    LOL @ this thread. You stay on here long enough and you'll hear it all

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: A difficult decision...

                      Originally posted by khavar View Post
                      Background:

                      Basically i have decided to make hijrah to a peaceful Muslim majority country and live there happily ever after (inshallah). I have cut down my expenses and have been
                      saving my salary (which is minimum wage) so i can start a new life there by opening a business so i dont have to look for a job struggle as much (inshallah).

                      Problem is i am not getting any younger and each passing year (each passing week now) it gets harder and harder to stay away from zina. I avoided it for years and years
                      and stayed lonely rather than do it but now i am at a dead end, the fasting and lowering the gaze just dont work anymore, i fear that i will do zina if i dont get married.

                      However here is the problem, i simply cannot afford a Muslim wife from UK, i cannot give her much money, or time, or a home, or children and she deserves all these things
                      and besides i want to marry a Muslima from the country i will reside in because she will help me over there to settle into my new community and there are hardly any sisters in
                      UK from the country i want to migrate too.

                      Based on my calculations i have 30% of the money i need, and to get the remaining 60% i need to work flat out and save for approx 18 months.

                      So i have decided to take a wife from Christian community, knowing that it is most likely that after 18 months when i make hijrah the marriage will likely be disolved or end in divorce,
                      it is unlikely that she will accompany me to live a a second wife so it is likely to be a divorce.

                      Summary of Reasons...

                      1. Eventual Hijrah (actually inevitable Hijrah)
                      2. Not desiring children to grow up in Dar al Kufr / non-Muslim country
                      3. Cheaper, Easier and more simple ceremony etc
                      4. Not doing Zina
                      5. Not breaking heart of a Muslimah when it comes to Hijrah time
                      6. Intent to marry a Muslima in a Muslim country and live and die there.

                      It is still a hard choice, but i have thought everything out and i dont have a lot of choice at the moment. What else can i say, life does not always go to plan. :apathy:
                      You need to revise your plans. Do you really think it's that easy to marry a Christian woman living in a Muslim country? It isn't. Make hijrah, earn a living and then try to find someone there.
                      "We cast the truth against the falsehood, so that it breaks its head, and lo! it vanishes; and woe to you for what you describe." Qur'an 21:18

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: A difficult decision...

                        Originally posted by khavar View Post
                        My comment regarding Muslims in West is based on my observations, yours may be different. For me when i walk down a high street in UK and you see a British non-Muslim wearing certain clothes, and certain hairstyle and 2 minutes later you see a Asian/Muslim guy with the same hair style and same clothe fashion it makes you wonder if there is any difference, and when you see a non-Muslim woman walking down the road and she is wearing immodest clothing and then you see a Muslim girl dressed the same the only difference really is that one is called Jane and has blonde hair and the other has is called Aisha and has black hair, one watches Eastenders and watches Hollywood movies, the other watches Asian Dramas and Bollywood movies, what is in their hearts - how much taqwa they have etc is something i cannot comment on.

                        Your right i am compromising aspects of deen and character for the sake of companionship, but the alternative is zina.

                        I am trying to calculate in my head what will bring more punishment in Akhirah, a) several zinas a month for 18 months vs b) Some sort of Marriage with 1 girl over the same period.
                        So are telling me, there are no women what so ever in the UK for you to marry?
                        That you cant be patient and wait, instead consider marrying non muslim or committing zina.
                        Do you think anyone here is going to sit here and agree so you can justify your plans?
                        No Longer On UF

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: A difficult decision...

                          Originally posted by khavar View Post
                          Background:

                          Basically i have decided to make hijrah to a peaceful Muslim majority country and live there happily ever after (inshallah). I have cut down my expenses and have been
                          saving my salary (which is minimum wage) so i can start a new life there by opening a business so i dont have to look for a job struggle as much (inshallah).

                          Problem is i am not getting any younger and each passing year (each passing week now) it gets harder and harder to stay away from zina. I avoided it for years and years
                          and stayed lonely rather than do it but now i am at a dead end, the fasting and lowering the gaze just dont work anymore, i fear that i will do zina if i dont get married.

                          However here is the problem, i simply cannot afford a Muslim wife from UK, i cannot give her much money, or time, or a home, or children and she deserves all these things
                          and besides i want to marry a Muslima from the country i will reside in because she will help me over there to settle into my new community and there are hardly any sisters in
                          UK from the country i want to migrate too.

                          Based on my calculations i have 30% of the money i need, and to get the remaining 60% i need to work flat out and save for approx 18 months.

                          So i have decided to take a wife from Christian community, knowing that it is most likely that after 18 months when i make hijrah the marriage will likely be disolved or end in divorce,
                          it is unlikely that she will accompany me to live a a second wife so it is likely to be a divorce.

                          Summary of Reasons...

                          1. Eventual Hijrah (actually inevitable Hijrah)
                          2. Not desiring children to grow up in Dar al Kufr / non-Muslim country
                          3. Cheaper, Easier and more simple ceremony etc
                          4. Not doing Zina
                          5. Not breaking heart of a Muslimah when it comes to Hijrah time
                          6. Intent to marry a Muslima in a Muslim country and live and die there.

                          It is still a hard choice, but i have thought everything out and i dont have a lot of choice at the moment. What else can i say, life does not always go to plan. :apathy:
                          Brother, don't be silly.

                          - Women in the west don't just marry some guy without getting to know them first, so you are going to have to do haram before you even get in this marriage so don't let shaitan trick you that this is as a 'halal' option.
                          - Assuming you do find one willing to marry you on a straight proposal, you still need to open with this woman of ahlul kitab that you only really intend on staying with her for 18 months unless she is willing to travel to as yet unstated / unknown destination. If you don't tell her this, it is a major dhulm on your part. Don't think it is some how ok to oppress non-Muslims but not Muslims, there is no barrier between the dua of the oppressed and Allaah, not even if it is a kafir or kafirah.
                          - Kids can easily come in 18 months, so you desire children not to grow up in darul kufr but then you risk having them with a kafirah and expect to leave her if that is the case.

                          Either marry, or fast. Forget this dumb plan of yours.
                          Last edited by Gingerbeardman; 24-12-14, 04:06 PM.
                          FOLLOW THE NEW BLOG - GINGERBEARDMAN - Muslim, father, husband, writer, defender of ginger rights!

                          www.facebook.com/outreach4Islam - Outreach4Islam have been working together in Leicester, calling the not yet Muslims to Islam since 2006.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: A difficult decision...

                            Originally posted by khavar View Post
                            My comment regarding Muslims in West is based on my observations, yours may be different. For me when i walk down a high street in UK and you see a British non-Muslim wearing certain clothes, and certain hairstyle and 2 minutes later you see a Asian/Muslim guy with the same hair style and same clothe fashion it makes you wonder if there is any difference, and when you see a non-Muslim woman walking down the road and she is wearing immodest clothing and then you see a Muslim girl dressed the same the only difference really is that one is called Jane and has blonde hair and the other has is called Aisha and has black hair, one watches Eastenders and watches Hollywood movies, the other watches Asian Dramas and Bollywood movies, what is in their hearts - how much taqwa they have etc is something i cannot comment on.

                            Your right i am compromising aspects of deen and character for the sake of companionship, but the alternative is zina.

                            I am trying to calculate in my head what will bring more punishment in Akhirah, a) several zinas a month for 18 months vs b) Some sort of Marriage with 1 girl over the same period.
                            Is this a joke? Tell me your not serious here. Are you really saying you can't find any modest muslimah where you live AT ALL but want to marry a non-Muslim instead. Really? You realise non-muslim relationships are so different to us because they require years before marrying and she's more likely to cheat on you because for them now adultery is the norm. I'm not saying they're all the same but it's going to be more challenging marrying one than a muslimah. DON'T go through with it, you might aswell have committed zinah if you have an intention to divorce because your marriage will be null. We're not gold diggers, there must be a practicing muslimah who wouldn't be soo fussy about how much money you have and is ready to make hijrah just have some patience,guard yourself from the shaytan, make frequent due and inshallah you'll get through.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: A difficult decision...

                              I suppose this is a troll.

                              Your intention is haraam 100%, it is not the solution to your problem. There are PLENTY of Muslim refugees and windows that need a husband. What you mentioned is utterly selfish.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: A difficult decision...

                                Originally posted by Umm_Tamiyyah View Post
                                I suppose this is a troll.

                                Your intention is haraam 100%, it is not the solution to your problem. There are PLENTY of Muslim refugees and windows that need a husband. What you mentioned is utterly selfish.
                                I know rightt I read this and was like wuutt? It amazes me how some men think loool, it's basically prostitution.

                                Comment

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