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Right to know or not?

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  • Saif-Uddin
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    If one doesn't follow the other opinion, then one shouldn't complain against it either, especially since both are valid.

    also if you read my posts then you would have realised that I said we can't read a persons heart, we can only assume that they have changed their ways ...

    If there's doubt, better to clarify then assume, and that as you know is a Valid opinion,

    "appear to have changed their ways" ? Yes we judge by the apparent, but the point I was making is that what is apparent may or may not be the Truth.

    I said this before and I repeat, it is a Valid opinion to conceal the past sin of Zina, but it is also Valid for someone to question a prospective spouse if there is doubt ... both opinions are valid.

    sisters can agree with the former, but please don't complain if a brother wants to clarify his doubts ...

    :jkk:
    I think someone misunderstood me again, assumed that this was a Brother Vs sister thing ...

    when I said If a brother wants to clarify, the same goes for the sister, vice versa without saying ...

    :jkk:

    Leave a comment:


  • Saif-Uddin
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by mizfissy815 View Post
    Once again, I never disagreed with the fact that a difference of opinion exists, I just don't follow the other one. I also was NOT talking about the 'right to know'.

    That post merely challenged what you've said about holding reservations about people who appear to have changed their ways in case their repentance wasn't accepted. That's the notion I referred to and I find not only incredibly stupid but as far from the Sunnah and Islamic teachings you can get. Judging repentant people on the basis their repentance may not have been accepted is the worst and most damaging type of suspicion a Muslim can have.

    This in no way how or form does this apply those who clearly haven't changed their ways nor does it mean that criminals are exempt from the punishments they deserve.

    I don't think I can make myself any clearer than that. My post was very specific attacking that notion. That was it. It's not related to anything else that was said on this thread. I'd appreciate it if people would stop getting their wires crossed and combining entirely independent arguments into one big one.
    If one doesn't follow the other opinion, then one shouldn't complain against it either, especially since both are valid.

    also if you read my posts then you would have realised that I said we can't read a persons heart, we can only assume that they have changed their ways ...

    If there's doubt, better to clarify then assume, and that as you know is a Valid opinion,

    "appear to have changed their ways" ? Yes we judge by the apparent, but the point I was making is that what is apparent may or may not be the Truth.

    I said this before and I repeat, it is a Valid opinion to conceal the past sin of Zina, but it is also Valid for someone to question a prospective spouse if there is doubt ... both opinions are valid.

    sisters can agree with the former, but please don't complain if a brother wants to clarify his doubts ...

    :jkk:

    Leave a comment:


  • mizfissy815
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    sis, we all judge criminals, some more than others, otherwise we'd be letting bygones be bygones all the time ...

    If a Criminals Steals my car and I get hold him, I'm not going to swallow the claim "You shouldn't Judge me, irrespective of what Crime/Sin I committed" ...

    I'd have to be a fool to do that.

    lets be realistic, theres not many people who would wed their Sons and Daughters of to those they Know are were Druggies/Rapists/Zani's/Zaniyaah's etc ...

    Indeed one maybe forgiven by Allah ta'ala, but we have noway of knowing that.

    Also as brother Khalid has stated, the Ulema have stated a difference of opinion as opposed to concealing such a Sin in regards to marriage, which brother Khalid has stated in his post ... which states ...

    2) If the husband doubts the potential wife's chastity then he has the right to find out - Shaykh ‘Abd al-Kareem al-Khudayr

    3) It is necessary to inform the potential spouse and hiding it is deception - Mufti Ebrahim Desai

    4) A person has the right to enquire and investigate any matter relevant to marriage concerning the potential spouse and not doing so would be negligence and being misled is deception - Mufti Ebrahim Desai

    I don't know why sisters keep ignoring this and pretend otherwise,

    :jkk:
    Once again, I never disagreed with the fact that a difference of opinion exists, I just don't follow the other one. I also was NOT talking about the 'right to know'.

    That post merely challenged what you've said about holding reservations about people who appear to have changed their ways in case their repentance wasn't accepted. That's the notion I referred to and I find not only incredibly stupid but as far from the Sunnah and Islamic teachings you can get. Judging repentant people on the basis their repentance may not have been accepted is the worst and most damaging type of suspicion a Muslim can have.

    This in no way how or form does this apply those who clearly haven't changed their ways nor does it mean that criminals are exempt from the punishments they deserve.

    I don't think I can make myself any clearer than that. My post was very specific attacking that notion. That was it. It's not related to anything else that was said on this thread. I'd appreciate it if people would stop getting their wires crossed and combining entirely independent arguments into one big one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saif-Uddin
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by mizfissy815 View Post
    Great points...if only I was referring to the gravity of the sin and not the wrapped ludicrous mentality of judging people/hold reservations about people just in case they weren't forgiven for their sins after repentance.

    The first part of the post adil quoted but left out pointed out that I was clearly referring to a sentiment that was expressed a few times about the 'risk' of assuming someone has been forgiven for their sins/that we don't know whether or not they've been forgiven for them.

    I was merely highlighting how incredibly ridiculous it is to judge people on those merits irrespective of what the sin is. I was not setting a benchmark for the sins nor was I comparing them. Just pointing out how silly it is.

    But yes, taken out of context you both make an incredibly good point.
    sis, we all judge criminals, some more than others, otherwise we'd be letting bygones be bygones all the time ...

    If a Criminals Steals my car and I get hold him, I'm not going to swallow the claim "You shouldn't Judge me, irrespective of what Crime/Sin I committed" ...

    I'd have to be a fool to do that.

    lets be realistic, theres not many people who would wed their Sons and Daughters of to those they Know are were Druggies/Rapists/Zani's/Zaniyaah's etc ...

    Indeed one maybe forgiven by Allah ta'ala, but we have noway of knowing that.

    Also as brother Khalid has stated, the Ulema have stated a difference of opinion as opposed to concealing such a Sin in regards to marriage, which brother Khalid has stated in his post ... which states ...

    2) If the husband doubts the potential wife's chastity then he has the right to find out - Shaykh ‘Abd al-Kareem al-Khudayr

    3) It is necessary to inform the potential spouse and hiding it is deception - Mufti Ebrahim Desai

    4) A person has the right to enquire and investigate any matter relevant to marriage concerning the potential spouse and not doing so would be negligence and being misled is deception - Mufti Ebrahim Desai

    I don't know why sisters keep ignoring this and pretend otherwise,

    :jkk:
    Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 19-03-12, 01:47 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • inprogress
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by aadil77 View Post
    Ofcourse you do and I did say the not so practising muslims so don't accuse me of shirk
    I meant the "you" as general, not you in specific. I was not trying to accuse, rather point out that if someone is staying chaste for people rather than for Allah they have a bigger problem than chastity. It is more important that we fear Allah over people than it is for us to stay chaste. Just a reminder for everyone. If you would be ashamed to have someone walk in into the room and see what you are doing, why are you not ashamed that Allah sees everything you do? He has more right to be feared.

    Leave a comment:


  • aadil77
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by inprogress View Post
    The point is that you stay away from sins for the sake of Allah swt. That's what Islam is. If you are more concerned about what people think than what Allah thinks, you are putting those people over Allah, that is shirk.

    Ofcourse you do and I did say the not so practising muslims so don't accuse me of shirk

    Leave a comment:


  • inprogress
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by aadil77 View Post
    If repentance could make you chaste again I don't think half of all muslims would hesitate to commit zina. The not so practising muslims would see no dunya incentive to staying chaste, what would be the point if you end up marrying a fornicator anyway?
    The point is that you stay away from sins for the sake of Allah swt. That's what Islam is. If you are more concerned about what people think than what Allah thinks, you are putting those people over Allah, that is shirk.

    Leave a comment:


  • mizfissy815
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by aadil77 View Post
    please don't judge by your own standards, you're putting zina in the same category as backbiting whereas they're completely different sins, zina is one of the most shameless sins which takes a lot to commit, back-biting can occur by accident with the slip of the tongue whereas getting in bed with someone doesn't

    Just look into the Qur'an and see how many times Allahs warns against fornicators and adulterers, then compare that to anything else
    Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    thats true,

    also the Hadd punishments ordained including Capital Punishment for Adulterers, make it clear that is is among the Worst Sins one can commit ...

    :jkk:

    Great points...if only I was referring to the gravity of the sin and not the wrapped ludicrous mentality of judging people/hold reservations about people just in case they weren't forgiven for their sins after repentance.

    The first part of the post adil quoted but left out pointed out that I was clearly referring to a sentiment that was expressed a few times about the 'risk' of assuming someone has been forgiven for their sins/that we don't know whether or not they've been forgiven for them.

    I was merely highlighting how incredibly ridiculous it is to judge people on those merits irrespective of what the sin is. I was not setting a benchmark for the sins nor was I comparing them. Just pointing out how silly it is.

    But yes, taken out of context you both make an incredibly good point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saif-Uddin
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by aadil77 View Post
    please don't judge by your own standards, you're putting zina in the same category as backbiting whereas they're completely different sins, zina is one of the most shameless sins which takes a lot to commit, back-biting can occur by accident with the slip of the tongue whereas getting in bed with someone doesn't

    Just look into the Qur'an and see how many times Allahs warns against fornicators and adulterers, then compare that to anything else
    thats true,

    also the Hadd punishments ordained including Capital Punishment for Adulterers, make it clear that is is among the Worst Sins one can commit ...

    :jkk:

    Leave a comment:


  • al-siddiq
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by aamantu billahi View Post
    Not since there is a hadeeth about hiding your brother's sins so that Allah hides yours on the Judgement Day :insha: Sins are between you and Allah, only He knows your intentions and what is in your heart, you can't prove repentance to people indeed. One should busy himself with other than suspision and doubts, I think it is important to find out as much as possible about a prospective and leave the rest to Allah. The wisdom in not telling your sins is that perhaps your repentace has been accepted and Allah erased them and He will prevent them from coming out so making someone aware of your past sins is useless or even bad moreover.
    Akhi, I just explained that the ahadith on this topic are referring to talking about speaking about sins out of pride.

    And as for the hadith you mentioned, it is talking about private sins (ie sins no one else knows). But again, in the situation of marriage it's different.


    Ahadith have a context, and a sharh to them. Many 'scholars' today I have seen do not even properly research evidences before giving fatawa.

    Leave a comment:


  • aamantu billahi
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Not since there is a hadeeth about hiding your brother's sins so that Allah hides yours on the Judgement Day :insha: Sins are between you and Allah, only He knows your intentions and what is in your heart, you can't prove repentance to people indeed. One should busy himself with other than suspision and doubts, I think it is important to find out as much as possible about a prospective and leave the rest to Allah. The wisdom in not telling your sins is that perhaps your repentace has been accepted and Allah erased them and He will prevent them from coming out so making someone aware of your past sins is useless or even bad moreover.

    Originally posted by al-siddiq View Post
    Ok I asked the question inshAllah I have an answer and I will actually make a new thread on it because I didn't know this.


    The evidences talking about revealing past sins are referring to revealing them out of pride (ie proud of the sins you committed).

    The brother mentioned that when it comes to marriage it is recommended you not hide things and be clear about certain things, obviously without being vulgar or too detailed. He said if you go into marriage with secrets, there will often be problems after.

    So if it's important to a certain person that the one they marry is a virgin, then if you are not you should mention that inshAllah.


    I will make a more detailed post explaining what he explained inshAllah but this is the short answer!

    Leave a comment:


  • al-siddiq
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Ok I asked the question inshAllah I have an answer and I will actually make a new thread on it because I didn't know this.


    The evidences talking about revealing past sins are referring to revealing them out of pride (ie proud of the sins you committed).

    The brother mentioned that when it comes to marriage it is recommended you not hide things and be clear about certain things, obviously without being vulgar or too detailed. He said if you go into marriage with secrets, there will often be problems after.

    So if it's important to a certain person that the one they marry is a virgin, then if you are not you should mention that inshAllah.


    I will make a more detailed post explaining what he explained inshAllah but this is the short answer!

    Leave a comment:


  • Saif-Uddin
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by hopes View Post
    its not lawful to tell your past sins to someone as far as i know
    why would anyone tell there sins thats crazy
    if u wish to know about your future wifes past u need to ask people about her and do your research well check as well the type of friends she is keeping many things can be a giveaway but no one in there right mind will tell u there sins
    i got married few days ago and me and my husband agreed not to ask each other about past sins as this is not halal
    With regard to Marriage, the following two opinions exist as posted by brother Khalid,

    Originally posted by Khalid b. Walid View Post
    :wswrwb:

    You realise copy and pasting fatwas on this topic is pretty pointless as you can go to several scholars and come away with several different opinions. For example, you get scholars saying:

    1) The fiance doesn't have the right to ask anything - Sheikh Al Munajjid (I think?) - http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/127587/

    2) If the husband doubts the potential wife's chastity then he has the right to find out - Shaykh ‘Abd al-Kareem al-Khudayr - http://islamqa.info/en/ref/21566

    3) It is necessary to inform the potential spouse and hiding it is deception - Mufti Ebrahim Desai http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...6a7215d95aeb12

    4) A person has the right to enquire and investigate any matter relevant to marriage concerning the potential spouse and not doing so would be negligence and being misled is deception - Mufti Ebrahim Desai http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...d7b3f51403b95b

    5) The person is allowed to remain silent and if asked after marriage then its allowed to speak a white lie if the husband has sincerely changed his life and feels that informing her of the past will cause problems in their marriage - Mufti Muhammad Ashraf http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/...14594&act=view


    So to act as if there is only one ruling on this topic seems naive.

    :jkk:

    Leave a comment:


  • Saif-Uddin
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    Originally posted by hamza05 View Post
    so we are saying if someone comints the deed and repents he/she becomes chaste again but how do we know if they are forgiven, how do you know the other persons repetence is excepted. also we dont know the intention of their tawbah to the world there tawbah may look legit but in reality it may not be because the intention maybe due to the person getting hurt from the opposite sex then they turned to allah when they were in need and wanted to get married or just normal tawbah no sincerity within it so they think they may be chaste but in reality they may not be because they repented but they repetence may not be excepted. ??
    We don't and we cannot ... that knowledge is with Allah ta'ala ...

    it's a risk one takes ... all we can do is Hope that they have made an acceptable Tawbah to Allah ta'ala ...

    :jkk:

    Leave a comment:


  • hopes
    replied
    Re: Right to know or not?

    its not lawful to tell your past sins to someone as far as i know
    why would anyone tell there sins thats crazy
    if u wish to know about your future wifes past u need to ask people about her and do your research well check as well the type of friends she is keeping many things can be a giveaway but no one in there right mind will tell u there sins
    i got married few days ago and me and my husband agreed not to ask each other about past sins as this is not halal

    Leave a comment:

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