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  • #61
    Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

    Originally posted by Amatullah Adn View Post
    Where on earth have you gotten this idea that women do not have the right to know who they are marrying?
    Oh please. You're just exhibiting silly feminazi type behaviour.

    You make it out as though women are 'victims', who wouldn't know their prospective partners, well...I'm sure you've thought far enough to realise that men too wouldn't be able to get to know the prospective wives. So, where is the discrimination against women? :zzz:

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    • #62
      Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

      Originally posted by Amatullah Adn View Post
      We don't live in an old world of clans and tribes any more. Women are not property to be squired around and bartered for economic and political gain. The Middle Ages is over. Women have to support themselves and be educated. Allah does not wish women to be unhappy and inflict the kind of unhappiness on their families that so many women trapped in these arranged marriages did for centuries. .
      Im sorry but you are making sweeping generalisations there. I mean, you can know alot about a person who you want to marry without dating them in the western sense. I totally agree with you about women not being chattels but surely you do realise that dating is not allowed for men too? How does obstaining from an intimate relationship before marraige result in an 'arranged' marraige. I happen to know quite a few people who were in love before marraige (hence, had a 'love' marraige) but never actually dated.

      Can you please expand on your definition of an 'arranged' marraige?

      We are not forbidden from making our own choices
      No one on this thread said we, as women, were forbidden to make our own choices. You are again making assumptions.
      Last edited by Aamaal; 30-09-07, 05:32 PM.
      [COLOR="black"][B] "Why should I ask the wise men: Whence is my beginning? I am busy with the thought: Where will be my end?" [/B][/COLOR]

      ~ Allama Muhammad Iqbal

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      • #63
        Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

        Originally posted by Alpha Dude View Post
        You make it out as though women are 'victims', who wouldn't know their prospective partners, well...I'm sure you've thought far enough to realise that men too wouldn't be able to get to know the prospective wives. So, where is the discrimination against women? :zzz:
        My point exactly.
        [COLOR="black"][B] "Why should I ask the wise men: Whence is my beginning? I am busy with the thought: Where will be my end?" [/B][/COLOR]

        ~ Allama Muhammad Iqbal

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        • #64
          Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

          Originally posted by Alpha Dude View Post
          Oh please. You're just exhibiting silly feminazi type behaviour.

          You make it out as though women are 'victims', who wouldn't know their prospective partners, well...I'm sure you've thought far enough to realise that men too wouldn't be able to get to know the prospective wives. So, where is the discrimination against women? :zzz:
          You are correct. It is not good for men either. But given that a man can divorce much easier than a woman, that he does not have the biological burnden of pregancy and childcare, and that he can take another wife the consequences are far greater for women.
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          • #65
            Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

            Originally posted by Amatullah Adn View Post
            We don't live in an old world of clans and tribes any more. Women are not property to be squired around and bartered for economic and political gain. The Middle Ages is over. Women have to support themselves and be educated. Allah does not wish women to be unhappy and inflict the kind of unhappiness on their families that so many women trapped in these arranged marriages did for centuries. We are not forbidden from making our own choices.
            it is not forbidden for a woman to choose who she wants to marry, indeed in Islam it is forbidden for a womans walli to marry a woman against her will and without her permission, if that happens then the marriage is invalid. what people do is not reflection on Islam, our tachings are very clear about this matter alhamdulillah.


            There is no place in Islam for marriages arranged against a woman or mans will. This is something completely unacceptable in Islam. A marriage is invalid without the two parties' total agreement and consent. We can look at the case of Khunsa`, who's father married her off with her disapproval, so the Prophet may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, had her marriage annulled. and also

            The Prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)." (Sahih Al-Bukhari )



            as for what u said here Women are not property to be squired around and bartered for economic and political gain this is correct because Allah ta ala says in the Quran

            "O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it, a great deal of good." Al Quran 4:19

            A young woman complained to `A'ishah the wife of the Prophet Muhammad, May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him saying: "My father married me to his brother's son in order to raise his social status. However, I hate what he has done " When the Prophet, May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, heard her complaint, he gave her the option of having the marriage annulled. She said: "O Messenger of Allah! I have accepted what my father has done. However, I wanted to know that women had a choice in the matter." "If only you would go back to him." She asked, "O Messenger of Allah! Are you commanding me?" He said, "No I am only pleading on his behalf." She replied: "Then I have no use for him." And that was the end of the matter.

            its true that all women and men in Islam should be educated no one will disagree with that because the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam said

            "Whoever follows a path in the pursuit of knowledge, Allah will make a path to Paradise easy for him." (sahih al-Bukhari)

            as for women supporting themselves Allah ta ala has made men the maintainers and protectors of women, ( Quran 4:34) and in marriage a womans money is hers to keep and spend as she sees fit, so women in Islam certainly are not expected to pay anything towards the bills, the groceries, the upkeep of the house and so on that is her husbands duty so there is no pressure on a woman to provide and therefore she has pleanty of time for education alhamdulillah. Islam is a perfect way of life, and as i said what some muslims are doing is no reflection on what the Islamic way of life is.
            Last edited by *asiya*; 30-09-07, 05:41 PM.
            "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

            The Prophet :saw: said:

            "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

            muslim

            Narrated 'Abdullah:

            The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


            "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

            By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

            [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]

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            • #66
              Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

              Originally posted by Amatullah Adn View Post
              You are correct. It is not good for men either. But given that a man can divorce much easier than a woman, that he does not have the biological burnden of pregancy and childcare, and that he can take another wife the consequences are far greater for women.
              Well then if western-type dating results in a much more happier marriage, why are the divorce rates of such marraiges so high? But you are missing the point- not being able to date does not mean that you know next to nothing about your potential spouse.
              [COLOR="black"][B] "Why should I ask the wise men: Whence is my beginning? I am busy with the thought: Where will be my end?" [/B][/COLOR]

              ~ Allama Muhammad Iqbal

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              • #67
                Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

                Originally posted by `asiya View Post

                Islam is a perfect way of life, and as i said what some muslims are doing is no reflection on what the Islamic way of life is.
                These are very excellent quotes but these are not heard often enough. What we hear are other quotes. You can wish that Islam is something that how it is practiced but sadly it is not practiced this way in most of our world. What is done and said in the name of Islam reflects on Islam and that is what we are trying to change.

                What is needed are women imams (I can hear the gasps!) and more women in leadership positions.
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                • #68
                  Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

                  Originally posted by Aamaal View Post
                  Well then if western-type dating results in a much more happier marriage, why are the divorce rates of such marraiges so high? But you are missing the point- not being able to date does not mean that you know next to nothing about your potential spouse.
                  I agree that divorce is too easy in Western countries and that self-satisfaction raised to the level of be all and end all creates problems. What is needed is balance where women and children are strengthened not forced to submit and told they will be rewarded in some other life.
                  User Title Censored By Moderators

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                  • #69
                    Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

                    Originally posted by Amatullah Adn View Post
                    Where on earth have you gotten this idea that women do not have the right to know who they are marrying?
                    who said they dont? and for this there are halaal avenues, not dating alone and blah blah.

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                    • #70
                      Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

                      Originally posted by Amatullah Adn View Post
                      These are very excellent quotes but these are not heard often enough. What we hear are other quotes. You can wish that Islam is something that how it is practiced but sadly it is not practiced this way in most of our world. What is done and said in the name of Islam reflects on Islam and that is what we are trying to change.

                      What is needed are women imams (I can hear the gasps!) and more women in leadership positions.
                      yes alhamdulillah they are beautiful hadiths masha Allah, so much to learn and sister it is up to all of us men and women to study our deen and learn and pass on the knowledge even if it is one ayat, one hadith, if we strive to do this then insha Allah we educate the ummah and there are ways of doing that, in accordance with what Allah and his messenger salAllahuAlleyhi wa salam have said.

                      There is nothing to prevent women in Islam from being educated or from teaching, indeed it is the opposite female scolars have been known from the time of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam himself onwards till today alhamdulillah. having female imams is not an option because we know that there will be no sucess for the one who disobeys Allah and his messenger salAllahu alleyhi wa salam and it has been clearly stated in the sahih hadith that it is not permissible for women to be imams and leaders in the sense that u have mentioned.

                      however there is nothing to prevent them having positions in the community to advise other women, and to help educate, and practically this is a great blessing upon us alhamdulillah, because obviously a woman has a menstrual cycle and she cannot pray at those times and after childbirth, and of course therefore she cannot be an imam,apart from anything else it would be totally impractical. also for her own protection she needs a mahram to travel with and an imam maybe would need to travel to see to the needs of his commmunity that he has been entrusted with, and Allah ta ala states that men are responsible for women, and so this is why this job has been given to the men leaving us women free to be well educated and to raise up our children with good education too insha Allah, again Islam is perfect and it is a blessing upon us as women alhamdulillah.
                      Last edited by *asiya*; 30-09-07, 05:53 PM.
                      "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

                      The Prophet :saw: said:

                      "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

                      muslim

                      Narrated 'Abdullah:

                      The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


                      "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

                      By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

                      [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

                        woahhh!!!!!!

                        how dis this thread start and how is it finshing...



                        debate is healthy btw :D
                        j u s t B ...y o u r s e l f.

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                        • #72
                          Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

                          Originally posted by Amatullah Adn View Post
                          What is needed is balance where women and children are strengthened not forced to submit and told they will be rewarded in some other life.
                          I seriously don't understand where this notion of the 'submission of women' comes from by not dating your potentail spouse if the rule applies equally to both men and women. And no, getting a divorce is not made difficult in Islam-perhaps in so-called 'Muslim' countries but that is not the issue here. I remember reading about a scholar who said that when in he travelled to the west he found Islam but no Muslims but when he came back home to the Muslim world, he found Muslims but no Islam. He was talking about how Muslim countries make divorce so difficult for women whereas the non-Muslim countries practice the true spirit of Islam. Or something along those lines.
                          [COLOR="black"][B] "Why should I ask the wise men: Whence is my beginning? I am busy with the thought: Where will be my end?" [/B][/COLOR]

                          ~ Allama Muhammad Iqbal

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

                            Originally posted by Amatullah Adn View Post
                            Yes. Dating is halaal. Women need to choose their own husbands and need to know them before marriage. Your chances of being happy marrying a stranger are very slim aren't they?
                            you do know dating is haraam for Muslim men as well. the prohibition for dating is just not on Muslim women. and yes in the west women and men do date before marriage. and look at the high rate of divorce. but yeah dating makes a marriage better

                            Originally posted by Amatullah Adn View Post
                            I agree that divorce is too easy in Western countries and that self-satisfaction raised to the level of be all and end all creates problems. What is needed is balance where women and children are strengthened not forced to submit and told they will be rewarded in some other life.
                            ukhti men and women both alike have to submit themselves to Allah in this life so that they can be prepared for the next life.
                            Last edited by sis_niqabi; 30-09-07, 07:21 PM.
                            Say, O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful.”
                            (Surah Az Zumar, (Chapter 39: Verse 53)

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                            • #74
                              Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

                              Originally posted by Amatullah Adn View Post
                              We don't live in an old world of clans and tribes any more. Women are not property to be squired around and bartered for economic and political gain. The Middle Ages is over. Women have to support themselves and be educated. Allah does not wish women to be unhappy and inflict the kind of unhappiness on their families that so many women trapped in these arranged marriages did for centuries. We are not forbidden from making our own choices.
                              i fail to see why no longer living in the middle ages allows us to do haraam acts which happened before the middle ages? i.e. dating / free mixing men and women.
                              Unseen knowledge in this signature can only be seen by a few!

                              There is Taqwa and there is Fatwa ... The believer, the mu'min, seeks taqwa, where as others weak in faith seek fatwaa. Fatwaa is very close to the borderline where as taqwa is far from it.

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                              • #75
                                Re: I'm no longer 'engaged'

                                Originally posted by Amatullah Adn View Post
                                We don't live in an old world of clans and tribes any more. Women are not property to be squired around and bartered for economic and political gain. The Middle Ages is over. Women have to support themselves and be educated. Allah does not wish women to be unhappy and inflict the kind of unhappiness on their families that so many women trapped in these arranged marriages did for centuries. We are not forbidden from making our own choices.
                                you are right women are not meant to be treated life property. and in islam women are not. it's only the backwards culture muslims come from today that makes women oppressed. the problem is muslims are putting their culture first and islam second.

                                but dating is haraam. how do you equate the forbiddance of dating to oppression of women? if its anything. the prohibition of dating protects of woman from the amount of womanizers and pervs out there who are only looking for a good time and not a serious relationship(ie marriage).

                                and ukhti just because dating is haraam doesn't mean a woman doesn't have a say in who she wants to marry. i plan on having a halal marriage without dating. but if there is a brother who i don't want to marry i dont have to marry him. arranged marriage is forbidden in islam. maybe if you studied your deen you would know that
                                Last edited by sis_niqabi; 30-09-07, 07:27 PM.
                                Say, O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful.”
                                (Surah Az Zumar, (Chapter 39: Verse 53)

                                Comment

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