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  • Originally posted by savo234 View Post

    AssalamoAlaikum sister, even though I dont wanna argue more but there is a fundamental misunderstanding with the Seerah of our beloved Prophet Muhammad(sa).

    The stigma with widows and divorcees is our cultural thing, it was not among arabs. So one can have desires/attraction for widowed woman or a divorced women and there is wrong about it.

    When I wrote the post, I said polygamy can be done with desires that a man has towards woman. You are assuming that we cant have desires for widowed/divorced women ? Well, why not ? If there is a practicing sister with desirable traits like beauty, wealth, character, intelligence etc etc who is divorced, why cant she be desirable ? And why is it wrong to marry her for that intent as second or third or fourth wife ?

    Marriage is'nt usually done for charity " Oh I am totally unattracted to this sister but since she is in need so let me marry her ". You can do it and you ll get reward for it Inshallah but by definition marriage has more chances of success if there are desires/attraction present.

    I can argue that besides other Maslahah, attraction was a factor among many marriages of Rasulullah(sa). Ayesha(ra) narrates about that as soon as she(ra) saw juwayriah(ra), her beauty, confidence etc, she was struck by jealousy and knew that Prophet(sa) would propose her. The marriage with Zainab(ra) is a big topic and I suggest you watch Dr Yasir Qadhi's seerah about it. Likewise Safiyyah(ra) was initially given to another Sahabi(ra) as milk yameen but when Sahaba(ra) came to know of her status and beauty, they recommended him to take her so he took her and married her.

    So ofcourse in all these marriages, attraction was'nt the only factor, some had added political dimension, some had nasab of women etc etc. But in all these marriages, you have to understand that Rasulullah liked our Umuhaat like a man likes a woman, thats what usually makes marriages successful.

    The thing that I am mentioning all this is much more than this debate. People assume things about our Prophet and then when they are told by Islamophobes that your prophet desired women, their faith is shaken.

    What exactly is wrong with desiring women ? Nothing as long as you are pursuing in in a halal manner and willing to give rights.

    And why cant a man feel attracted to a divorced woman ? I married my wife and she was virgin but if I have to practice polygamy, ofcourse I can be attracted to a beautiful/desirable sister who has kids ? Any man can. Its just our own stigmas that end up distorting our fitrah. The fitrah of men is to desire women, all Islam does is regulates it through marriage.


    I know its a big responsibility but being just is in treatment(money, time) but not in terms of feelings in the heart. Even Prophet(sa) loved Ayesha(ra) more. So the just way of polygamy is only about discipline, its nothing so complicated. Men misuse it these days because its culturally frowned upon therefore many men who do it are not good in the first place. If a religious man does it and he has good character then there are much more chances of this succeeding and I have seen many cases of it.


    The only valid problems in polygamy specific to modern era are issues with secular laws, capitalist way of life etc. They indeed make things more complicated
    A large chuck of sisters here are young, inexperienced and heavily westernised. They have not experienced married life apart from what they see from the outside. What you say will likely go in one ear and out the other, even though they will believe in 100% of what you say, but it's too painful to admit. It's a case of I believe in polygamy but I don't want anything to do with it. It's only when personal circumstances change that their opinion will change and it does. It's been mentioned on this forum before with sisters who wanted nothing to do with it but then had to consider it because options were running low.

    It's a fair criticism to say divorcees with or without children are looked down on. But the only way that changes is by individual men making a difference and not assuming all men think the same. Things don't get fixed overnight.

    We should all be on the same page because nothing being discussed here is all that complicated.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Stoic Believer View Post

      Don't flatter yourself. I was never debating you in the first place.
      But when did I mention a debate? More intellectualism on display here.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by savo234 View Post

        Your qiyas(analogy) makes no sense. The age of marriage has nothing to do with age of going to Jannah. The age of marriage in Islam is related to puberty and sexual desires. Islamic scholars have a CONSENSUS that any man or woman who fears any fitnah due to sexual desires then marriage becomes an obligation(not just a sunnah).

        Are you seriously telling me that from puberty to 33, almost 15 years of life can be spent without any fear of falling into relationship, zina, masturbation etc.

        Really ?

        How many cases have you seen of this happening ? How many 33 year olds are there who are virgin and never watched haram or fallen into relationships.

        Even kuffar dont believe in suppression of sexual desires like you are advocating. Kmow that in Islam, there is no other way than marriage for this.

        Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to the young men: “O young men, whoever among you can afford to get married, let him do so, for it is more effective in lowering the gaze and in guarding one’s chastity. Whoever cannot afford that, then he should fast, for that will be a shield for him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5065; Muslim, 1400.
        In my culture, those who are unmarried remain virgins. Sorry it's such an anomaly to you!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by savo234 View Post

          Again you are citing an example that goes against you. Women these days have children late because they dont wanna have more children. If a woman wants 1 or maximum 2 babies, thats possible in late 30s and thats the trend in western societies. Its a wrong trend, late marriage, less kids etc are all against the spirit of Islam and the explicit encouragement of Rasulullah(sa) to have more kids.

          If you show me women who go on to have 4-5 kids after starting births in late 30s then that will be a valid argument however thats very rare.

          However in all our previous generation of traditional muslim societies, 4-6 kids was norm and that was only possible with women marrying in 20s.

          UK's society is a non muslim society which doesnt follow Islamic values and infact its in opposition to it so its very very strange that muslims are using this line of argument.

          Even stats in many muslim societies are going in the wrong direction due to the influence of capitalism and feminism.

          These stats that you cited are totally irrelevant as compared to the PROVEN SCIENTIFIC facts about women fertility being very high in 20s and undergoing decline in 30s
          I'm not from the UK. And if you can perhaps condense your posts into a larger post, that would be convenient.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by _Ruby_ View Post

            Statistically in the UK (2017 figures since 2018 results have not yet been released), women aged 40-45 gave birth more often than women under the age of 20.

            General breakdown (live births per 1000 women in age group)

            Under 20: 12.7
            20-24: 53.7
            25-29: 95.3
            30-34: 109.8
            35-39: 65.1
            40+: 16.1

            (stats courtesy of the office for national statistics)
            You should know that projections and personal feelings and the like seem trump actual facts and realities.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Small fluff View Post

              I studied Psychology and this is a fine example of projection!

              I never read or heard of a Hadith saying one should only consider fertility as point in choosing a partner! I need the number, page...
              Ditto. It's almost always obvious when insecurities are being projected onto others.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by zi-zizou View Post

                A large chuck of sisters here are young, inexperienced and heavily westernised. They have not experienced married life apart from what they see from the outside. What you say will likely go in one ear and out the other, even though they will believe in 100% of what you say, but it's too painful to admit. It's a case of I believe in polygamy but I don't want anything to do with it. It's only when personal circumstances change that their opinion will change and it does. It's been mentioned on this forum before with sisters who wanted nothing to do with it but then had to consider it because options were running low.

                It's a fair criticism to say divorcees with or without children are looked down on. But the only way that changes is by individual men making a difference and not assuming all men think the same. Things don't get fixed overnight.

                We should all be on the same page because nothing being discussed here is all that complicated.
                Didn't the Prophet, sallalahu alayhi wa salam marry a divorcee?

                Did Aisha, radi'Allahu anha ever have kids? Yet she was the Prohhet (sallalahu alayhi wa salam)'s favorite?

                They always seem to exclude things like the above, but then again, it wouldn't exactly support their argument.

                Comment


                • [QUOTE=zi-zizou;n12611247]

                  A large chuck of sisters here are young, inexperienced and heavily westernised. They have not experienced married life apart from what they see from the outside.

                  That’s very mature of you, labelling sisters just because they dont agree with you. Maybe we have a brain and we can think for ourselves.

                  why does everyone here sound so obsessed with polygamy, and if anyone says anything about it there wrong. And no, we’re not going to settle just because we get desperate.

                  Its hard to believe sometimes that it’s actually Muslim men here commenting. All you do is criticise sisters. Maybe if men stepped up and did their duty, women wouldn’t be complaining. Start with yourself first then worry about how much experience we have.





                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by zi-zizou View Post

                    A large chuck of sisters here are young, inexperienced and heavily westernised. They have not experienced married life apart from what they see from the outside.
                    Originally posted by Janna90 View Post
                    That’s very mature of you, labelling sisters just because they dont agree with you. Maybe we have a brain and we can think for ourselves.

                    why does everyone here sound so obsessed with polygamy, and if anyone says anything about it there wrong. And no, we’re not going to settle just because we get desperate.

                    Its hard to believe sometimes that it’s actually Muslim men here commenting. All you do is criticise sisters. Maybe if men stepped up and did their duty, women wouldn’t be complaining. Start with yourself first then worry about how much experience we have.




                    Do you really stop and read what I say? I said the criticism labelled at men was justified.

                    You are not the voice of sisters you can only speak about yourself. Less of the "we" this and "we" that.

                    What is it that you are complaining about? It's okay to disagree.

                    Btw, I'm not obsessed with polygamy, it was me suggesting we park it and move on.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by AnotherMuslim View Post

                      But when did I mention a debate? More intellectualism on display here.
                      Haha. You chastised me for not making a proper "rebuttal", which implies you thought we were debating.

                      Then you patted yourself on the back for no reason. Sad.

                      It's okay. You're new here, so I'll let it slide.
                      Last edited by Stoic Believer; 20-03-19, 09:13 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Stoic Believer View Post

                        Haha. You chastised me for not making a proper "rebuttal", which implies you thought we were debating.

                        Then you patted yourself on the back for no reason. Sad.

                        It's okay. You're new here, so I'll let it slide.
                        so u wont let me slide

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Janna90 View Post

                          A large chuck of sisters here are young, inexperienced and heavily westernised. They have not experienced married life apart from what they see from the outside.

                          That’s very mature of you, labelling sisters just because they dont agree with you. Maybe we have a brain and we can think for ourselves.

                          why does everyone here sound so obsessed with polygamy, and if anyone says anything about it there wrong. And no, we’re not going to settle just because we get desperate.

                          Its hard to believe sometimes that it’s actually Muslim men here commenting. All you do is criticise sisters. Maybe if men stepped up and did their duty, women wouldn’t be complaining. Start with yourself first then worry about how much experience we have.

                          Interesting.

                          Comment

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