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  • Originally posted by AnotherMuslim View Post

    How is it an exception if there are millions of women in their 40s with young children? I thought exceptions had to be RARE and unlikely in order to qualify as exceptions??
    Again you are citing an example that goes against you. Women these days have children late because they dont wanna have more children. If a woman wants 1 or maximum 2 babies, thats possible in late 30s and thats the trend in western societies. Its a wrong trend, late marriage, less kids etc are all against the spirit of Islam and the explicit encouragement of Rasulullah(sa) to have more kids.

    If you show me women who go on to have 4-5 kids after starting births in late 30s then that will be a valid argument however thats very rare.

    However in all our previous generation of traditional muslim societies, 4-6 kids was norm and that was only possible with women marrying in 20s.

    UK's society is a non muslim society which doesnt follow Islamic values and infact its in opposition to it so its very very strange that muslims are using this line of argument.

    Even stats in many muslim societies are going in the wrong direction due to the influence of capitalism and feminism.

    These stats that you cited are totally irrelevant as compared to the PROVEN SCIENTIFIC facts about women fertility being very high in 20s and undergoing decline in 30s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Janna90 View Post

      And divorced women and widows were not looked down upon at that time. They would still get proposals. If the intention of men of today was really to help society by practising polygamy then they would marry widows and divorcees with children who need someone to provide for them. I don’t see how someone marrying a 20 year old is going to help the society. They only do it fo the sake of their desires. Sure islamically we can’t say this is wrong, but if someone wants to practice polygamy at least do it to help those women that really do need it.
      Didn't you mention that men can't afford to take on a second wife. If this is true then how could they marry someone divorced with children. Would that family not cost more to maintain? You can't have it both ways.

      Anyway, lets stop being fixated by polygamy. We all know a sister would not give this any consideration until she turns at least 35. So let's all chill.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Small fluff View Post

        I studied Psychology and this is a fine example of projection!

        I never read or heard of a Hadith saying one should only consider fertility as point in choosing a partner! I need the number, page...
        You have studied psychology not Islam so its understandable that you never heard of these ahadith.

        And dont misquote me, I didnt say that fertility is ONLY criteria, rather one of the main criterion.

        It was narrated that Ma’qil ibn Yasaar said: A man came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, I have found a woman who is from a good family and is beautiful, but she does not bear children; should I marry her?” He told him not to. Then he came to him a second time and said something similar and he told him not to marry her. Then he came to him a third time and said something similar and he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Marry the one who is loving and fertile, for I will be proud of your great numbers.”

        Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2050; al-Nasaa’i, 3227; classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Adaab al-Zafaaf, p. 132


        Comment


        • It’s very easy for men to talk about making many kids your not the one barring them for 9 months and let’s not start with the labour pains!

          Besides their is no proof that older woman cannot have many children this is completely bias. I know young women’s who can’t have children due to personal reasons. Nothing to do with age « Bonhomme »
          Muslim couples decide to have few kids because of finances not fertility issues btw! Life is expensive in some areas and couples think hard before making a decision!

          And again « c’est Dieu qui décide pas l’homme »

          God has already decided how many children you will have, when and how! So fertility should not even be a point of discussion. Anyone can get married it’s all in the intentions! If a man and a women have good intentions it doesn’t matter there age, it will work out!

          Problem in our society is we are so engrained and focused on the wrong things (superficial aspects of life)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by AnotherMuslim View Post

            There is no perfect age for marriage. And it's certainly not listed anywhere in the Quran, Hadiths, or Sunnah, either. In fact, isn't the best age in Islam 33? Won't everyone be that age in Jannah? Correct me if I'm wrong.
            Your qiyas(analogy) makes no sense. The age of marriage has nothing to do with age of going to Jannah. The age of marriage in Islam is related to puberty and sexual desires. Islamic scholars have a CONSENSUS that any man or woman who fears any fitnah due to sexual desires then marriage becomes an obligation(not just a sunnah).

            Are you seriously telling me that from puberty to 33, almost 15 years of life can be spent without any fear of falling into relationship, zina, masturbation etc.

            Really ?

            How many cases have you seen of this happening ? How many 33 year olds are there who are virgin and never watched haram or fallen into relationships.

            Even kuffar dont believe in suppression of sexual desires like you are advocating. Kmow that in Islam, there is no other way than marriage for this.

            Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to the young men: “O young men, whoever among you can afford to get married, let him do so, for it is more effective in lowering the gaze and in guarding one’s chastity. Whoever cannot afford that, then he should fast, for that will be a shield for him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5065; Muslim, 1400.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Small fluff View Post
              It’s very easy for men to talk about making many kids your not the one barring them for 9 months and let’s not start with the labour pains!

              Besides their is no proof that older woman cannot have many children this is completely bias. I know young women’s who can’t have children due to personal reasons. Nothing to do with age « Bonhomme »
              Muslim couples decide to have few kids because of finances not fertility issues btw! Life is expensive in some areas and couples think hard before making a decision!

              And again « c’est Dieu qui décide pas l’homme »

              God has already decided how many children you will have, when and how! So fertility should not even be a point of discussion. Anyone can get married it’s all in the intentions! If a man and a women have good intentions it doesn’t matter there age, it will work out!

              Problem in our society is we are so engrained and focused on the wrong things (superficial aspects of life)
              Assalaamu 'alaykoum Sister,

              The point is that in general it is better for both men and women to get married as soon as possible from an Islamic p.o.v (c.a.d at a young age) to avoid fitnah. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with getting married at a later age, whether you're a man or woman.

              Anyways marriage should be done fi sabil iLLAH firstly and most importantly, to help and support each other in Deen, whether you end up having children or not.
              :assalam:

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Small fluff View Post
                It’s very easy for men to talk about making many kids your not the one barring them for 9 months and let’s not start with the labour pains!
                ​​​​​​Rasulullah(sa) was also a man so will you have the same comments for him for saying that "marry loving and fertile women for I will be proud of large numbers of my Ummah.


                Originally posted by Small fluff View Post
                sides their is no proof that older woman cannot have many children this is completely bias.
                You can live in denial. Its upto you. You can believe that earth is flat, it wont make it round .
                https://www.babycentre.co.uk/a6155/y...-and-fertility




                Originally posted by Small fluff View Post
                ​​​​​​


                Mwomen’s who can’t have children due to personal reasons. Nothing to do with age.muslim couples decide to have few kids because of finances not fertility issues btw!


                Thats worse.
                ​​​​​​

                Originally posted by Small fluff View Post
                ​​​​​
                God has already decided how many children you will have, when and how!

                So fertility should not even be a point of discussion.


                Why did then Prophet(as) recommend to marry fertile women and encourage having children ? Dont abuse the concept of Qadr.


                ​​
                Originally posted by Small fluff View Post
                ​​​​​Anyone can get married it’s all in the intentions! If a man and a women have good intentions it doesn’t matter there age, it will work out!
                Problem in our society is we are so engrained and focused on the wrong things (superficial aspects of life)
                Thats fine but having children isnt superficial. There is immense reward in raising righteous kids and the more the better. They carry ones deeds far beyond his/her life .

                ​​​​​​​Infact some Ibn Umar had less interest in women due to his worship but he just married to have kids.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rosetears97 View Post

                  Assalaamu 'alaykoum Sister,

                  The point is that in general it is better for both men and women to get married as soon as possible from an Islamic p.o.v (c.a.d at a young age) to avoid fitnah. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with getting married at a later age, whether you're a man or woman.
                  Nothing wrong in marrying late if there is no fear of fitnah which is definitely not the case for majority of people.

                  Fuqaha are agreed that if there is even a slight fear of fitnah, marriage becomes an obligation and after that delibarately delaying it is VERY WRONG and SINFUL. This is the case foe most people.


                  Originally posted by rosetears97 View Post
                  yways marriage should be done fi sabil iLLAH firstly and most importantly, to help and support each other in Deen, whether you end up having children or not.
                  Desiring to have children is encouraged in Islam and thats bigger "fisabilillah" to raise pious muslim kids who and whose progeny keep giving reward ... There is even dua in the quran to bless us with righteous offspring. I am flabbergasted that desiring kids is being considered unimportant.

                  Comment


                  • I never disagreed.
                    :assalam:

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rosetears97 View Post

                      Assalaamu 'alaykoum Sister,

                      The point is that in general it is better for both men and women to get married as soon as possible from an Islamic p.o.v (c.a.d at a young age) to avoid fitnah. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with getting married at a later age, whether you're a man or woman.

                      Anyways marriage should be done fi sabil iLLAH firstly and most importantly, to help and support each other in Deen, whether you end up having children or not.
                      Walaikum Asalam,

                      Yes, I truly agree with what you are saying!

                      Comment


                      • Anyhow, I believe I have put forward my argument for what I believe are Islamic Family Values(early marriages, good relationships, polygamy, taking care of all women in society, more children etc), I gotta go from this threat now. I wish everyone, brothers and sisters(including sisters in 30s) successful marriage/s and loads of pious muslim children who can be a coolness to the eyes and a source for great reward in the hereafter.

                        [3] “Our Lord! Grant unto us spouses and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous. (Rabbana hab lana min azwajina wa dhurriyatina qurrata a`yunin wa’j`alna li’l muttaqina imama)” [Qur’an, 25:74]

                        رَبَّنَا هَبْ لَنَا مِنْ أَزْوَاجِنَا وَذُرِّيَّاتِنَا قُرَّةَ أَعْيُنٍ وَاجْعَلْنَا لِلْمُتَّقِينَ إِمَاماً


                        Amin.

                        Comment


                        • I may have been misunderstood so I'm going to elaborate on what I meant;

                          From what I've learned and subsequently understood, the primary purposes for marriage are 1. for the Sake of ALLAH to help each other in matters of Deen, 2. to avoid fitnah and corruption, and 3. to expand the Ummah and raise a righteous progeny. Of course it is harmful and sinful to delay marriage without a valid reason, especially with so much corruption around. This is what applies to people general. Rasulu'LLAH sal ALLAHu 'alayhi wa sallam used to give out general rulings that would apply to the majority of people. I don't understand why an individual case is being made into such a major issue.
                          :assalam:

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by savo234 View Post

                            So where in Islam did Allah put this condition that polygamy cannot be done for desires ? The concept of polygamy is that even if men seek it for desires or self interest, it will automatically end up helping the windows, divorcees etc because the demand of women will go up.

                            Dont make your desires into Shariah. Understand that the Ahkaam of Islam have their wisdom.

                            Also its normal and natural for first wife to be upset and jealous. Infact jealousy is good to balance the equation otherwise if women were not jealous, top 30 pc of men would have all the women. So men seeking polygamy and women feeling natural jealousy is a healthy balance.



                            If you accept that polygamy has Hikmah then it should be practiced, difficulties dont matter. If thats the case then dozen other things are more difficult these days so should we leave them too ?

                            The prophet married widows and divorcees, you get a lot of reward for doing so. He only married Aisha who was never married before. I don’t see many people following his example. He did all those things to show us that it’s okay. It’s sad you choose to only follow your desires just because it might fit into a certain criteria in the shariah. So go ahead no one is stopping you. But don’t accuse me of making my desires into shariah, your showing that’s what your doing. I never said there was anything wrong with polygamy. Your so defensive about it and you come across like your obsessed.

                            How can you compare polygamy to others difficulties? Please think rationally. I will not comment any further, I will leave you with this.

                            The prophet peace be upon him said “If a man was married to two wives and is inclined to one of them (and favored her over the other), he will come on the Day of Judgment with one side of his body tilted (as a punishment for his unjust treatment).” [Imaam Ahmad].

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Janna90 View Post


                              The prophet married widows and divorcees, you get a lot of reward for doing so. He only married Aisha who was never married before.
                              AssalamoAlaikum sister, even though I dont wanna argue more but there is a fundamental misunderstanding with the Seerah of our beloved Prophet Muhammad(sa).

                              The stigma with widows and divorcees is our cultural thing, it was not among arabs. So one can have desires/attraction for widowed woman or a divorced women and there is wrong about it.

                              When I wrote the post, I said polygamy can be done with desires that a man has towards woman. You are assuming that we cant have desires for widowed/divorced women ? Well, why not ? If there is a practicing sister with desirable traits like beauty, wealth, character, intelligence etc etc who is divorced, why cant she be desirable ? And why is it wrong to marry her for that intent as second or third or fourth wife ?

                              Marriage is'nt usually done for charity " Oh I am totally unattracted to this sister but since she is in need so let me marry her ". You can do it and you ll get reward for it Inshallah but by definition marriage has more chances of success if there are desires/attraction present.

                              I can argue that besides other Maslahah, attraction was a factor among many marriages of Rasulullah(sa). Ayesha(ra) narrates about that as soon as she(ra) saw juwayriah(ra), her beauty, confidence etc, she was struck by jealousy and knew that Prophet(sa) would propose her. The marriage with Zainab(ra) is a big topic and I suggest you watch Dr Yasir Qadhi's seerah about it. Likewise Safiyyah(ra) was initially given to another Sahabi(ra) as milk yameen but when Sahaba(ra) came to know of her status and beauty, they recommended him to take her so he took her and married her.

                              So ofcourse in all these marriages, attraction was'nt the only factor, some had added political dimension, some had nasab of women etc etc. But in all these marriages, you have to understand that Rasulullah liked our Umuhaat like a man likes a woman, thats what usually makes marriages successful.

                              The thing that I am mentioning all this is much more than this debate. People assume things about our Prophet and then when they are told by Islamophobes that your prophet desired women, their faith is shaken.

                              What exactly is wrong with desiring women ? Nothing as long as you are pursuing in in a halal manner and willing to give rights.

                              And why cant a man feel attracted to a divorced woman ? I married my wife and she was virgin but if I have to practice polygamy, ofcourse I can be attracted to a beautiful/desirable sister who has kids ? Any man can. Its just our own stigmas that end up distorting our fitrah. The fitrah of men is to desire women, all Islam does is regulates it through marriage.
                              Originally posted by Janna90 View Post

                              The prophet peace be upon him said “If a man was married to two wives and is inclined to one of them (and favored her over the other), he will come on the Day of Judgment with one side of his body tilted (as a punishment for his unjust treatment).” [Imaam Ahmad].
                              I know its a big responsibility but being just is in treatment(money, time) but not in terms of feelings in the heart. Even Prophet(sa) loved Ayesha(ra) more. So the just way of polygamy is only about discipline, its nothing so complicated. Men misuse it these days because its culturally frowned upon therefore many men who do it are not good in the first place. If a religious man does it and he has good character then there are much more chances of this succeeding and I have seen many cases of it.


                              The only valid problems in polygamy specific to modern era are issues with secular laws, capitalist way of life etc. They indeed make things more complicated
                              Last edited by savo234; 20-03-19, 04:56 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by savo234 View Post

                                Your qiyas(analogy) makes no sense. The age of marriage has nothing to do with age of going to Jannah. The age of marriage in Islam is related to puberty and sexual desires. Islamic scholars have a CONSENSUS that any man or woman who fears any fitnah due to sexual desires then marriage becomes an obligation(not just a sunnah).

                                Are you seriously telling me that from puberty to 33, almost 15 years of life can be spent without any fear of falling into relationship, zina, masturbation etc.

                                Really ?

                                How many cases have you seen of this happening ? How many 33 year olds are there who are virgin and never watched haram or fallen into relationships.

                                Even kuffar dont believe in suppression of sexual desires like you are advocating. Kmow that in Islam, there is no other way than marriage for this.

                                Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to the young men: “O young men, whoever among you can afford to get married, let him do so, for it is more effective in lowering the gaze and in guarding one’s chastity. Whoever cannot afford that, then he should fast, for that will be a shield for him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5065; Muslim, 1400.
                                We get all sorts of funny people akhi, I've come to expect it on ummah forums,

                                Speaking without basic knowledge is a right for them apparently.

                                جزاك الله خيرا
                                http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                                "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                                – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

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