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  • #46
    Originally posted by vivi View Post

    Yes there are boundaries in Islam, whilst you want your child to understand they are different, you don’t want them to feel alienated. Your experience does not dictate what everyone else’s should be like. If you hit puberty at an earlier age you will have to get used to dressing more modestly earlier despite your mindset still being in that of a child. This does not mean the OP’s child has reached that point yet.

    As a 10 year old, she will not be thinking of breaking rules, she will just be thrilled she’s been allowed to go and spend time with her friends. At some point, children do need to be given some freedom, some opportunities to make decisions themselves.

    In this age where majority of school kids own a phone, it’s not unthinkable to assume they would be allowed to bring phones on their trip with them. Even if not, she can still take one for safety.

    You said you accepted the differences between you and your friends because you “realised they were not Muslim,” however, you then said “so what if the other Muslim girls are going.” This is a contradiction in itself, if she is not like the other non-Muslims, and she is not like the other Muslims, then who can she relate to?

    Going on a school trip is not unislamic, the OP’s worry here is safety. As Muslims, we tend to be more protective and cautious when it comes to our children. This trip is an educational school trip with her friends, aside from safety concerns, I see no major problems with her daughter going. The purpose of the trip is not immoral or wrong, it is offered as part of her education. The staff accompanying are all women, very low chances of anything to put her daughter in sexual danger and her class is all girls as well.
    I read your reply and did not want to respond but seems like you did not really understand my post.

    I was just talking about my experience as a child. I did not say my experience should dictate EVERYONE ELSES.

    You talk about contradictions but say as a 10 year old she won't be thinking about breaking rules. Honestly ok!! She might not but her friends might and guess what she might do the same so she doesn't feel left out.

    You say to let her take a phone even if not allowed. Isn't that teaching your child to break rules???

    Also don't use part of my sentence to say I am contradicting myself. Read the sentence properly.

    Also I agree with everything brother abu najm said and he said it well.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by somayaa View Post
      I was asking for people to share thier stories and experiences about these trips so it help me make my decision but I ended up getting so many fatwas instead.
      I shared experience and stories and so did some others but if you want to call them fatwas it shows you have trouble with your understanding.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Mintchocchip View Post

        I read your reply and did not want to respond but seems like you did not really understand my post.

        I was just talking about my experience as a child. I did not say my experience should dictate EVERYONE ELSES.

        You talk about contradictions but say as a 10 year old she won't be thinking about breaking rules. Honestly ok!! She might not but her friends might and guess what she might do the same so she doesn't feel left out.

        You say to let her take a phone even if not allowed. Isn't that teaching your child to break rules???

        Also don't use part of my sentence to say I am contradicting myself. Read the sentence properly.

        Also I agree with everything brother abu najm said and he said it well.
        Her taking her phone with her is in the best interests for her safety, it is not a big deal.

        I understand it was your experience, but you emphasised from a young age, drawing a line between Muslims and non-Muslims. During their childhood, whilst they are still of an innocent age, children are children. Year 6 is getting closer to the age where they should be able to think independently but my point was such a strong boundary between her classmates is not really necessary at that age.

        She should be aware of her religion and be able to tell right from wrong, but there are not a lot of moral dilemmas for a 10 year old to face. There is no need for such a strong divide between her and her peers.

        Your sentence WAS a contradiction, you say she cannot follow the non-Muslims, but she also cannot follow the Muslims. In that case she cannot follow anyone which will lead to her feeling isolated from her classmates.

        10 year olds, Muslim or not, are not at the maturity level to be thinking of anything inappropriate to be doing. There is nothing inappropriate available for them to do anyway, no parties to sneak out to, no boys to meet etc... They are not that mentally advanced at that age.

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        • #49
          I didn't go to any overnight trips and I'm ok with it.
          Last edited by usernametaken; 08-11-18, 12:18 AM.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by vivi View Post
            Catholics are not polytheists, they are one of the Abrahamic religions, like Islam, and there are many common factors between the 2 religions.
            It is forbidden in Islam for a female Muslim to travel without a Mahram. There is a consensus on that fact. You contradict this ruling and tell the OP to send her daughter on the trip.

            You have demonstrated yourself to be pleased with people obeying you in disobedience to Allah. This is the definition of a Taghut.

            And with the above statement you uttered words of clear Disbelief.

            Anyone who takes advice from you after this is just like you.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
              It is forbidden in Islam for a female Muslim to travel without a Mahram. There is a consensus on that fact. You contradict this ruling and tell the OP to send her daughter on the trip.
              You have demonstrated yourself to be pleased with people obeying you in disobedience to Allah. This is the definition of a Taghut.
              And with the above statement you uttered words of clear Disbelief.
              Anyone who takes advice from you after this is just like you.
              What I said was a fact. Catholicism is not polytheism and it is an Abrahamic region. Tell me please, where am I wrong?

              If you actually read my reply you would see that I am not encouraging anyone to disobey God. I have told the OP that I see no Islamic problem with her sending her child on the school trip. The school trip is for her education. It is not one of pure leisure.

              Travelling without a Mahram is permitted in circumstances, given that the group she is travelling with is safe. If her safety is in ensured, the prohibition is lifted. Travelling with a group of experienced, all-female, monotheistic teachers, her safety will be ensured.

              You also completely missed my key message in my reply. If her daughter feels as though Islam is stifling and too controlling over her life, she will reject her faith altogether. Seems like it was a bit of a tough concept for you to grasp, try reading it again.

              Her daughter’’s Islamic needs will be catered for during the trip, I cannot see any Islamic reason for her to not be allowed on an educational school trip.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by somayaa View Post
                Asalamualikum, my eldest daughter is 11 and in year 6. They have a residential trip in a few months time for 2 nights and they are going to a city 3 hours drive away from us. I have always told my daughter that she wont be allowed in over night trips, but the problem now is that all her class is going and it is mentally affecting her. My daughter is coming home everyday with a sad face and asking me if I can change my mind because she really does want to go but I am sooo anxious. She has never been away from me for that long. What is other peoples thoughts with same aged or older age children? Did you let them/will let them on residential trips? Are thise trips safe? Jazakallah


                She is in year 6, You said they will go in a few months time so let's assume the trip is in january; she will leave the school in July and never see most of these kids again so why does it matter if she misses out on something. It's only for 2 nights, not 2 weeks.

                At the end of the day you're the mother so you do what is best for your child. Pray istikhara and that will help you make your decision.

                My biggest concern is that you send your child to a Catholic school, there is a big difference between sending them to a non muslim school and a faith school.

                They sing about Jesus being God's son, they teach the children this doctrine.
                Women lost their modesty when men lost their gheerah..” .

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by vivi View Post
                  Travelling without a Mahram is permitted in circumstances, given that the group she is travelling with is safe. If her safety is in ensured, the prohibition is lifted. Travelling with a group of experienced, all-female, monotheistic teachers, her safety will be ensured.

                  You also completely missed my key message in my reply. If her daughter feels as though Islam is stifling and too controlling over her life, she will reject her faith altogether. Seems like it was a bit of a tough concept for you to grasp, try reading it again.

                  Her daughter’’s Islamic needs will be catered for during the trip, I cannot see any Islamic reason for her to not be allowed on an educational school trip.
                  I don't entirely agree with the way AbuNajm goes about this topic but he has some valid points in that I wouldnt attribute monotheism to catholicism despite claims, since the trinity is a huge driving factor. You cannot have three entities, all of whom are alternatively God and can be called out to in prayer and then call yourself monotheistic.

                  And here is the reality, don't worry about making Islam fun or liberal enough to be loved. People are too obsessed with life being about this concept of happiness when in reality for Muslims our main purpose isn't happiness in this life, but the next.

                  If she needs a reason to go away from Islam she will find it despite how watered down and easy people make it for her. Or any child. If anything it'll leave her more vulnerable to shaytan because she's grown up not really respecting the limits of Deen. Give her fun with other means. Take her out somehow with the family. Her growth and development won't stagnate simply because she didn't go on a trip.

                  Also I can't see anything more false than the last line. Are they going to make room in the itinerary for salah? Are they going to help her find a place to make wudu and ensure she has the place to do it and point out qiblah for her as well? Let's be realistic, and I hate being harsh but the reality is, you gave up salaah and mentioned how you lied to your parents about it for years until now. You rejected a way of prayer because you're shia, so what right have you to make islamic judgments? On what grounds and basis?

                  It's like a waiter trying to pass prescriptions. You don't have the right. Learn Islam first please and not just the shia version.

                  As as adult even it can be hard to ask or ensure salah is done properly and in the care of non Muslims who don't care, as a minor, why do that to her and place her in compromising position?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by usernametaken View Post
                    I didn't go to any overnight trips and I'm ok with it.
                    Same. Plus the reality is, anecdotes don't make evidence. A thousand people could say they went on an overnight trip and they had a great time and it was safe and it still wouldn't prove anything.

                    You can't live your life by stories. Only by Islam.
                    ​​​​​​
                    Our cultures claim cousins are fine, they're like brothers, and you'll have hundreds of people agree to that. Mine on the other hand sexually abused me for years because my parents ignored Islamic injunctions in favor of cultural ones. What will you be willing to be accountable for at the end of the day as a parent is what matters.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by vivi View Post
                      I cannot see any Islamic reason for her to not be allowed on an educational school trip.
                      I just found out that not only are you a Shi'ah, but you are around 16 and have never fulfilled your obligations to pray. You're lack of respect for Islam and your arrogance in speaking about it are unparalleled.

                      May Allah safeguard weak and foolish members of this forum from you and those like you. Ameen.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Nusaiba View Post

                        I don't entirely agree with the way AbuNajm goes about this topic but he has some valid points in that I wouldnt attribute monotheism to catholicism despite claims, since the trinity is a huge driving factor. You cannot have three entities, all of whom are alternatively God and can be called out to in prayer and then call yourself monotheistic.

                        And here is the reality, don't worry about making Islam fun or liberal enough to be loved. People are too obsessed with life being about this concept of happiness when in reality for Muslims our main purpose isn't happiness in this life, but the next.

                        If she needs a reason to go away from Islam she will find it despite how watered down and easy people make it for her. Or any child. If anything it'll leave her more vulnerable to shaytan because she's grown up not really respecting the limits of Deen. Give her fun with other means. Take her out somehow with the family. Her growth and development won't stagnate simply because she didn't go on a trip.

                        Also I can't see anything more false than the last line. Are they going to make room in the itinerary for salah? Are they going to help her find a place to make wudu and ensure she has the place to do it and point out qiblah for her as well? Let's be realistic, and I hate being harsh but the reality is, you gave up salaah and mentioned how you lied to your parents about it for years until now. You rejected a way of prayer because you're shia, so what right have you to make islamic judgments? On what grounds and basis?

                        It's like a waiter trying to pass prescriptions. You don't have the right. Learn Islam first please and not just the shia version.

                        As as adult even it can be hard to ask or ensure salah is done properly and in the care of non Muslims who don't care, as a minor, why do that to her and place her in compromising position?
                        If you are travelling and are away from home, her child is allowed to shorten her prayers. I rejected a way of praying because it doesn’t fit with my beliefs, where is the problem? I am returning to doing my prayers now but came on this forum for some help with resources.

                        It is much easier than you think, growing up in a Western society, to reject your faith due to it being too demanding and restrictive in comparison to the lifestyle of the locals.

                        I am speaking as someone who has experienced this very situation myself, someone who has grown up in the same society and had parents with the same fears and I believe it is a good experience for her child to go on this trip.

                        She will not be the only Muslim going on this trip, the other 4 girls will have the same obligations to pray. Just like in a school day, she would not take herself out of each lesson for each prayer, she would do them when she gets time, when she comes back home. When the girls return back home from their activities I’m sure she will have free time to do her prayers.

                        If she’s worried about the direction of the Qiblah, there are apps that tell you which direction to pray in.

                        And again, I see no Islamic reason for her not to go.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post

                          I just found out that not only are you a Shi'ah, but you are around 16 and have never fulfilled your obligations to pray. You're lack of respect for Islam and your arrogance in speaking about it are unparalleled.

                          May Allah safeguard weak and foolish members of this forum from you and those like you. Ameen.
                          You are very judgmental for a Muslim. Not only is what you’ve said false, but extremely conceited.
                          It would do you well not to assume the worst of others.

                          I speak from experience, having grown up in this society, with parents who had the same fears. In some aspects, I am more qualified to talk about this than you.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            In this day and age of widespread fitnah, it would be better to stay on the side of caution and protect your daughter at all costs. That includes no overnight trips or stays away from home till she gets married unless she has a trustworthy mehram or family member accompanying her.

                            It may sound extreme, but it's essential to keep tabs on your kids and you can never do that perfectly from another location. Children are an amaanah and you will be questioned about then on Yawmul Qiyaamah. 90% of the times, kids going astray is because of the negligence of parents - by either blindly trusting them or by failing to give them proper tarbiyah.

                            Handing her a cellphone is no guarantee that she will be safe from harm during her trip. You must be aware that a phone can be misused. 10-11 year olds today know a lot more than kids their age did 10-20 years back. Ofcourse, she will be sad, sulk, throw tantrums and even rebel about not being allowed to go. Her friends will talk about the trip for days on end and she may feel left out but children are naiive and you shouldn't bend rules in order to make her happy.

                            Also, no matter how well one thinks they know their children, you can not say the same for others in company of your children. People who want to do wrong can be very persuasive and manipulating. Children can be made to do things against their will. At a tender age, kids can get easily swayed and forget the morals and values taught at home in an instant.

                            Convince your daughter that you're being protective for her own good. As a parent, you're her well-wisher and not her enemy, but she will understand this once she becomes older. Tell her that you will allow her to go on day trips, but, during nights, she has to be at home at all costs. Make up for it by taking her somewhere she enjoys or having a party for her friends at home so that she doesn't become resentful.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I heard someone told my mate once ,he was shocked to see condoms in the list of things to bring for his child's trip ,think the early teen age group camping trip or summing.
                              Allah swt knows best if it is true or not

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