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  • #16
    There 4 other muslim kids in my daughter's class and they are all going on trip, so my daughter says they are also muslims and thier parents let them go why not me?

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    • #17
      @Abu Najm

      Brother Abu Najm, is it Halal to allow your daughter to travel outside the city without a Mahram? In this case she would be under the supervision of non-Muslim catholic school teachers.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
        @Abu Najm

        Brother Abu Najm, is it Halal to allow your daughter to travel outside the city without a Mahram? In this case she would be under the supervision of non-Muslim catholic school teachers.
        AbuNajm

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by somayaa View Post
          There 4 other muslim kids in my daughter's class and they are all going on trip, so my daughter says they are also muslims and thier parents let them go why not me?
          Sister, I went through university and the stories I could tell you of what Muslim girls do subhanAllah. Muslims are sadly not the gold standard. If you make what even other Muslims do the standard of comparison where do you draw the line?

          I've seen Muslim girls with boyfriends, going clubbing, committing Zina, authubillah.

          When I was younger my mother didn't let me go to sleepovers, birthday parties and all of that. Was I upset then? Yes. Did I feel alienated? Yes. This is why homeschooling before uni saved me because it helped me establish who I was without the outside influence and today I can wholeheartedly thank her. Is that something everyone can do? I don't think so but I strongly suggest having extracurricular activities with good Muslim friends who she can invite over or hang out with in safe spaces.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
            @Abu Najm

            Brother Abu Najm, is it Halal to allow your daughter to travel outside the city without a Mahram? In this case she would be under the supervision of non-Muslim catholic school teachers.
            No, it is not allowed. Disbelievers cannot serve as Mahram for the purposes of travel, even if it was a father or older brother, so what about non-relatives?

            See the following Fatwa.

            Regardless, this parent seems to only care about their separation anxiety with respect to sending their 11-year old daughter on a trip with Mushrikeen. She does not appear concerned about the exposure to Shirk and Kufr. They seem to be a lost cause as well as their child.

            The more important issue here is on the Day of Resurrection, will this family be among the Ummah of Muhammad or the worshipers of idols?

            As a non-Muslim child, I attended a Christian, all-boys school. I can speak from experience in saying that these field trips are usually coordinated with other schools and often single-gender schools of the opposite gender. Even at 11 years old, boys and girls found their way to each other during these trips in the public places and even the hotels- it's unavoidable.

            In comparing public schools with Christian, single-gender schools, I can say from experience that there was far more sexual harassment and disrespect towards girls among the kids from the Christian, single-gender schools. That said, my 10-year old sister was shot by a classmate in her 5th grade public school classroom, so there is a different type of danger in public schools- like violence.

            As Muslims, we should consider exposure to Kufr and Shirk as worse than violence or sexual assault. Unfortunately, some parents are weak in their religious commitment and are ignorant about Islam, and so they consider exposure to polytheism as less serious than potential violence or other common issues in public schools.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by somayaa View Post
              It is a catholic school, that is why I said no because I wasnt sure of thier boundries.
              The staff accompanying them are all ladies.
              The only thing is if I dont let my daughter on trip, it will really affect her. She has always been a sensitive child and seeing everyone go on trip except her will make her feel the odd one out.
              If all the teachers are women then I would definitely say go for it. She is under the supervision of females so there is a significantly lower risk of anything happening to her. Religion is not supposed to restrict your daughterís opportunities, she will regret not going and always be jealous of her peers. If anything, you donít want her to begin to resent her religion for not being able to go.

              I understand you have worries about anything happening to her, but the teachersí jobs are to ensure the safety of your child and they are trained what to do in the case of emergencies. Let her take a phone with her to communicate with you, you can check up on her a couple of times each day to put your mind at ease.

              As you mentioned, she is not the only Muslim girl going on the trip, she is still growing as a child, you donít want her to feel isolated and like an outsider within her own religion when the risk factor is very low. All your daughter wants is to have fun with her friends, itís a good opportunity for her to learn how to be independent and carry on with her faith even when away from your influence as parents.

              I am very much in favour of you sending her on this trip as I was fortunate enough to have parents who allowed me to do the same. In terms of safety, your daughterís school has likely been running the same trip for years, they are qualified to handle any mishaps that might happen while she is away and the safe all-female environment will allow her to be comfortable whilst on the trip itself.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post

                No, it is not allowed. Disbelievers cannot serve as Mahram for the purposes of travel, even if it was a father or older brother, so what about non-relatives?

                See the following Fatwa.

                Regardless, this parent seems to only care about their separation anxiety with respect to sending their 11-year old daughter on a trip with Mushrikeen. She does not appear concerned about the exposure to Shirk and Kufr. They seem to be a lost cause as well as their child.

                The more important issue here is on the Day of Resurrection, will this family be among the Ummah of Muhammad or the worshipers of idols?

                As a non-Muslim child, I attended a Christian, all-boys school. I can speak from experience in saying that these field trips are usually coordinated with other schools and often single-gender schools of the opposite gender. Even at 11 years old, boys and girls found their way to each other during these trips in the public places and even the hotels- it's unavoidable.

                In comparing public schools with Christian, single-gender schools, I can say from experience that there was far more sexual harassment and disrespect towards girls among the kids from the Christian, single-gender schools. That said, my 10-year old sister was shot by a classmate in her 5th grade public school classroom, so there is a different type of danger in public schools- like violence.

                As Muslims, we should consider exposure to Kufr and Shirk as worse than violence or sexual assault. Unfortunately, some parents are weak in their religious commitment and are ignorant about Islam, and so they consider exposure to polytheism as less serious than potential violence or other common issues in public schools.
                Brother you are going to extremes now. How can you judge me if you dont know a single thing about me? I have never been ignorant about islam, I feel myself very close to Almighty Allah, Alhamdulillah we live our lives according to the rules and boundries of islam. I always offer my salah and ask my children to do so. As muslims is it appropriate to be so judgemental? They are always exposed to shirk and kufr regardless of residential trips. She attends a non muslim school, she will go to a non muslim high school, do you want me to stop education? I cant homeschool them and I dont need to explainnit to you why, I cant send them to islamic school either because I cant afford to pay £20000 each year.
                I always want to stay friends with my kids so they can share everything with me. I dont want her to become distant from me because I stop all her fun. I want to let her have fun unless it is haram.
                Last edited by somayaa; 07-11-18, 05:55 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Nusaiba View Post
                  Wa alaykum salaam sis,

                  It only just begins here sis. What if later your daughter sees all her friends are going to a party, will she be strong enough to say no? Don't underestimate shaytan. He begins with the harmless things and builds up.
                  Strongly agree.

                  Some schools have all sorts of parties including end of year discos and I am talking about primary schools as well as secondary schools.

                  Your daughter will realise by putting on a sad face and behaving miserable will let her get her way. If she gets away with it once she will definately try it again maybe for something worse.

                  I am talking from experience. Back many many years ago I was allowed on a Year 6 residential trip and I can tell you we were not supervised 100% of the time. I have nieces and nephews, children of friends who have been in recent years and when you ask them how was the trip they talk about how fun it was because such and such did this and that and the teachers were not watching especially at bedtime when teachers were not with them.

                  The teachers do not normally sleep in the same room as the kids. That is sonething to think about too.

                  Anyway I get the feeling from the OP she wants to let her daughter go and was hoping others had were in favour of allowing her daughter to go.

                  Being friends with your kids does not mean allowing them to do what is harmful just so they stay friends with you.
                  Last edited by Mintchocchip; 07-11-18, 06:00 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    If you're really stuck on what to do, chances are your daughter will have her way. Maybe pray istikhara if you still can't decide.
                    You have the authority to say whether she can go or not and you also say you want to be like a friend to your daughter, but if you say I don't like the idea of you going to the trip and be open about your concern *about the trip*, not her, I would imagine most kids would be fine with that. The problem might be that she feels easily affected by her peers and maybe is easily influenced by them. So maybe you should teach her how to not care what they think as much so she does not have to do everyything they do, but at the same time feels that you do understand why this stuff is important to her as to not isolate her or dismiss something that matters to her in school. Hope some of this makes sense.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by vivi View Post

                      If all the teachers are women then I would definitely say go for it. She is under the supervision of females so there is a significantly lower risk of anything happening to her. Religion is not supposed to restrict your daughterís opportunities, she will regret not going and always be jealous of her peers. If anything, you donít want her to begin to resent her religion for not being able to go.

                      I understand you have worries about anything happening to her, but the teachersí jobs are to ensure the safety of your child and they are trained what to do in the case of emergencies. Let her take a phone with her to communicate with you, you can check up on her a couple of times each day to put your mind at ease.

                      As you mentioned, she is not the only Muslim girl going on the trip, she is still growing as a child, you donít want her to feel isolated and like an outsider within her own religion when the risk factor is very low. All your daughter wants is to have fun with her friends, itís a good opportunity for her to learn how to be independent and carry on with her faith even when away from your influence as parents.

                      I am very much in favour of you sending her on this trip as I was fortunate enough to have parents who allowed me to do the same. In terms of safety, your daughterís school has likely been running the same trip for years, they are qualified to handle any mishaps that might happen while she is away and the safe all-female environment will allow her to be comfortable whilst on the trip itself.

                      As a child I had to always cover my legs in school meaning in primary school had to wear trousers as part of the uniform while majority girls wore skirts/dresses with socks and most of their legs were bare. I wanted to dress like them but was not allowed as I was told muslims have to cover up. My parents were not even the "strict" type when it came to religion. I learnt not to be jealous of my peers because you realise they are not muslim.

                      Are you serious? What school is going to allow your child to take a mobile phone so a parent can check up on them a couple of times a day? Again speaking from what actually happens is the children are not even allowed to call home. Parents nowadays get a text saying the children arrived safely and any problems get in touch with the school. They do not even give phone numbers of the place where the kids stay.

                      So what if other muslim girls are going if they all do unislamic stuff thats no justification for OPs daughter to copy them. It's like saying other muslim girls don't wear hijab so why should she.

                      Are you sure you not the OP?


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by somayaa View Post
                        Brother you are going to extremes now.
                        And that comment is not "judgmental"?

                        Originally posted by somayaa View Post
                        How can you judge me if you dont know a single thing about me?
                        I don't need to know you in order to comment on the few things you disclosed about yourself and your family in this public forum. It's not my responsibility to make sure that you portray yourself and your family accurately or with enough information to "judge" properly.

                        All I did was comment about the one decision we know you've taken- to place your daughter in a Catholic school in the UK.

                        The second fact you disclosed is that you're struggling with the decision about whether to allow your 11-year old daughter to go on an overnight trip in the custody of these polytheists.

                        Originally posted by somayaa View Post
                        I have never been ignorant about islam,
                        That is a strange statement. I'll ignore the obvious lack of truth to that statement since it is a literal impossibility and address the obvious contradiction in it- you are here asking about whether to allow your 11-year old daughter to go overnight with polytheists when anyone who has studied Islam knows that this is absolutely prohibited and forbidden without any doubt.

                        Originally posted by somayaa View Post
                        I feel myself very close to Almighty Allah, Alhamdulillah we live our lives according to the rules and boundries of islam. I always offer my salah and ask my children to do so.
                        You don't seem to know even the basic "boundaries" of Islam. In fact, you are regularly transgressing them by having your daughter in that school and you're about to transgress another one by allowing her to travel with polytheists.

                        Originally posted by somayaa View Post
                        As muslims is it appropriate to be so judgemental? They are always exposed to shirk and kufr regardless of residential trips. She attends a non muslim school, she will go to a non muslim high school, do you want me to stop education? I cant homeschool them and I dont need to explainnit to you why, I cant send them to islamic school either because I cant afford to pay £20000 each year.
                        Yes, it is appropriate to be clear about what is correct and what is wrong, especially when it comes to Muslim children. Your child is your responsibility in front of Allah, not to do with as you choose, but to raise in a manner consistent with the Shari'ah of Islam.

                        Exposing children to Shirk and Kufr is a choice. You are not forced to do so. The same thing would happen to you that has happened to my family if you should choose to homeschool your child- your family would have to make sacrifices and face economic difficulty.

                        Every Muslim parent who remains in Dar al-Harb and sends their children to the schools of Ahl al-Harb is 100% sinning. Believers only have hard choices in Dar al-Harb and instead of facing up to them, parents like you are running away from them and away from people telling you about the enormous mistakes that you're making.

                        There are plenty of Muslim leaders and preachers who will tell you what you want to hear- that you're doing nothing wrong by sending your child to a Catholic school and that it's ok to send your 11-year old daughter with her class and teachers on an overnight trip. Just because you came across a Muslim leader who says the correct view, which is opposite to what you want to hear, then the problem must be that I'm "extreme" or "judgmental".

                        Originally posted by somayaa View Post
                        I always want to stay friends with my kids so they can share everything with me. I dont want her to become distant from me because I stop all her fun. I want to let her have fun unless it is haram.
                        First learn what is Haraam, then determine whether you are preventing your daughter from engaging in it. Until you study Islam properly, you are just as ignorant as anyone else who isn't a scholar or student of knowledge.

                        If you are "close to Almighty Allah" as you "feel" you are, then choosing to entrust your daughter's education to Catholic polytheists and secularists will be the thing that drives a wedge between the two of you. The conflicting messages of entrusting your daughter's care to polytheists and then telling her not to do what they do is what will drive a wedge between you.

                        I care more about your daughter and the extreme amount of damage you're doing to her soul and identity as a Muslim than I do about your feelings or opinion about me.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          If I really wanted her to go then I wouldnt ask about it here, I dont care what others think, all I wanted to see if the risks of going to trips outweigh the affects it will have on her mentally. The only reason if I let her go will be because as I said it is mentally affecting her. She is thinking about it day and night and sometimes asks me why am I the only one to not participate in any activities, as I said I never let her to friends birthday parties, thier house or outside to play. I dont want her to grow up thinking islam is against fun but I want her to know that there is halal/haram fun. I was looking for peoples experiences not for them to judge me. I will think twice in the future before I post in this forum.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            My daughter is a good child, she always covers, reads quran everyday. She never lies to me and we do lots of islamic activities and take them to islamic classes so please dont just jump into judgement and say that we will amongst the idol worshippers on the day of judgement.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by vivi View Post
                              If all the teachers are women then I would definitely say go for it. She is under the supervision of females so there is a significantly lower risk of anything happening to her.
                              Do you realize you're promoting something forbidden in Islam?

                              Originally posted by vivi View Post
                              Religion is not supposed to restrict your daughterís opportunities, she will regret not going and always be jealous of her peers. If anything, you donít want her to begin to resent her religion for not being able to go.
                              The objective of religion is to provide a set of rules and standards for speaking and acting which bring the most benefit for the individual and society. What goes against those objectives is considered wrong and evil and thus falls under "restriction". It is impossible for Islamic law to "restrict" a true benefit for society, though the law may restrict an individual's "opportunities" for the benefit of society.

                              These matters are not subjective. What you consider an "opportunity" may in fact be sinful and what I consider sinful may in fact be a good "opportunity". The only way to measure these matters appropriately is by means of the Shari'ah as conveyed by the scholars of Islam.

                              The Shari'ah does not change simply because of someone's regrets or resentments.

                              Originally posted by vivi View Post
                              I understand you have worries about anything happening to her, but the teachersí jobs are to ensure the safety of your child and they are trained what to do in the case of emergencies. Let her take a phone with her to communicate with you, you can check up on her a couple of times each day to put your mind at ease.
                              Polytheists, whether male or female, relatives or strangers, are not allowed to be given custody of a minor Muslim or female adult Muslim for any length of time or for the purpose of travel. It's a question of safety as well as standards. Polytheists do not have the same standards of what is "good" and "evil", in fact, their standards are much lower than that of Muslims. They will allow a Muslim child to eat whatever they wish and participate in all sorts of activities that are considered forbidden in Islam.

                              There are many things that an 11-year old Muslim girl could be exposed to, participate in, and consume on this 2-day trip that are considered forbidden in Islam, but they are perfectly "good" according to polytheists.

                              Originally posted by vivi View Post
                              As you mentioned, she is not the only Muslim girl going on the trip, she is still growing as a child, you donít want her to feel isolated and like an outsider within her own religion when the risk factor is very low. All your daughter wants is to have fun with her friends, itís a good opportunity for her to learn how to be independent and carry on with her faith even when away from your influence as parents.
                              If you're a parent yourself, then I worried about your children. However, based on how you speak about this matter, it doesn't seem like you are a parent.

                              Many 11-year olds are not capable yet of standing up for their beliefs, not to mention they are completely unaware of what is forbidden or not.

                              Being a Muslim in a Catholic school, even for a person teaching class, is isolating in effect and brings all sorts of "risks" to a Muslim's religion.

                              Originally posted by vivi View Post
                              I am very much in favour of you sending her on this trip as I was fortunate enough to have parents who allowed me to do the same. In terms of safety, your daughterís school has likely been running the same trip for years, they are qualified to handle any mishaps that might happen while she is away and the safe all-female environment will allow her to be comfortable whilst on the trip itself.
                              And look how you turned out, right? Based on the advice you're giving, looks like your parents made the same major mistake with you as this sister is making with her child.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post

                                And that comment is not "judgmental"?



                                I don't need to know you in order to comment on the few things you disclosed about yourself and your family in this public forum. It's not my responsibility to make sure that you portray yourself and your family accurately or with enough information to "judge" properly.

                                All I did was comment about the one decision we know you've taken- to place your daughter in a Catholic school in the UK.

                                The second fact you disclosed is that you're struggling with the decision about whether to allow your 11-year old daughter to go on an overnight trip in the custody of these polytheists.



                                That is a strange statement. I'll ignore the obvious lack of truth to that statement since it is a literal impossibility and address the obvious contradiction in it- you are here asking about whether to allow your 11-year old daughter to go overnight with polytheists when anyone who has studied Islam knows that this is absolutely prohibited and forbidden without any doubt.



                                You don't seem to know even the basic "boundaries" of Islam. In fact, you are regularly transgressing them by having your daughter in that school and you're about to transgress another one by allowing her to travel with polytheists.



                                Yes, it is appropriate to be clear about what is correct and what is wrong, especially when it comes to Muslim children. Your child is your responsibility in front of Allah, not to do with as you choose, but to raise in a manner consistent with the Shari'ah of Islam.

                                Exposing children to Shirk and Kufr is a choice. You are not forced to do so. The same thing would happen to you that has happened to my family if you should choose to homeschool your child- your family would have to make sacrifices and face economic difficulty.

                                Every Muslim parent who remains in Dar al-Harb and sends their children to the schools of Ahl al-Harb is 100% sinning. Believers only have hard choices in Dar al-Harb and instead of facing up to them, parents like you are running away from them and away from people telling you about the enormous mistakes that you're making.

                                There are plenty of Muslim leaders and preachers who will tell you what you want to hear- that you're doing nothing wrong by sending your child to a Catholic school and that it's ok to send your 11-year old daughter with her class and teachers on an overnight trip. Just because you came across a Muslim leader who says the correct view, which is opposite to what you want to hear, then the problem must be that I'm "extreme" or "judgmental".



                                First learn what is Haraam, then determine whether you are preventing your daughter from engaging in it. Until you study Islam properly, you are just as ignorant as anyone else who isn't a scholar or student of knowledge.

                                If you are "close to Almighty Allah" as you "feel" you are, then choosing to entrust your daughter's education to Catholic polytheists and secularists will be the thing that drives a wedge between the two of you. The conflicting messages of entrusting your daughter's care to polytheists and then telling her not to do what they do is what will drive a wedge between you.

                                I care more about your daughter and the extreme amount of damage you're doing to her soul and identity as a Muslim than I do about your feelings or opinion about me.
                                I chose to become a housewife the day my eldest was born but
                                There is no point that I can homeschool my kids, I have a severly disabled child who screams day and night and you wouldnt even imagine how much care he needs. I am awake most of the night until morning and when my disabled child sleeps for a few hours then I get to sleep or eat, I dont have any support or family around me. Do you want me to neglect my disabled child in order to homeschool my other kids or you want me to rob a bank and send my kids to islamic schools?
                                I dont think you are not well educated in islamic matters either. Islam is not that harsh as you are portraying it. Do you even know why I ended up in Dar ul Harb? What my background is? Do I even want to live here? Do you know what I have been through whole my life? The abuse I have suffered as a child? The poverty, the unsafety, the war? I dont want to live here even a day but I have to because of my family's safety. People like you give the message that islam is not a religion of peace at all.
                                Last edited by somayaa; 07-11-18, 07:22 PM.

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