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  • #31
    Re: Travelling without a mahram

    Originally posted by -qed- View Post
    Yes but the obvious distinction being that we don't use horses anymore. Islam is for all times and I can't help thinking a time was specified over distance because transport would improve
    Who said we don't use horses anymore? Have you been to third world countries?

    And Islam is for all time, that's why the ruling is still valid today.

    Originally posted by -qed- View Post
    Well my personal belief is there is no evidence for a specific distance and in all hadeeths only the time period is mentioned which obviously suggest the time not the distance away from a mahram is the important issue. I would still stick to travelling with a mahram though for larger distances and simply not travelling alone. But that is basic common sense for a woman.
    No one in here is in any position to give "personal opinion" on Islamic rulings. And how many hadeeths have you studied regarding this?
    Secure few moments, everyday, to reflect upon the innumerable blessings of Allah and thank Him for bestowing them upon you.

    "A person who is blessed with the ability to be grateful, shall never be deprived of barakah and increase in blessings."
    - Rasulullah (صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم)‎

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Travelling without a mahram

      Originally posted by .mirror. View Post
      Who said we don't use horses anymore? Have you been to third world countries?

      And Islam is for all time, that's why the ruling is still valid today.



      No one in here is in any position to give "personal opinion" on Islamic rulings. And how many hadeeths have you studied regarding this?
      Yes I have been to third world countries and even there horses are not the primary means of transport. Islam is for all time which is why the ahadeeth do not specify distance merely time. The distance is the interpretation of different scholars. Where there is difference of opinion you can give personal opinion as long as it is not contrary to islam. I've looked up a lot of hadeeth on this issue. Many are repeats of the same 1,2 or 3 days without a mahram. None of them specify distance. I have asked my imam about this and he said he'll get back to me but he follows the hanafi madhab so will most likely give the hanafi ruling on this matter. Allah hu alam brother but I agree with you that you should have a mahram with you for longer distances
      Ya Rab! When you give me wealth, do not take away my happiness. When you give me strength, do not take away my intelligence. When you give me victory, do not take away my humility. When you give me humility, do not take away my dignity.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Travelling without a mahram

        Originally posted by -qed- View Post
        My question is, is it fine to travel without a mahram as long as you travel for less than a day?


        Originally posted by -qed- View Post
        I would've interpreted it to mean that you should always be within one days access of your mahram
        Originally posted by -qed- View Post
        I do not see a problem of going out of the house for leisure activities without a mahram within the city.
        Originally posted by -qed- View Post
        I also do not see it as a problem for a woman to drive without a mahram or husband
        Originally posted by -qed- View Post
        preferable with a mahram but I believe they are ok without
        Originally posted by -qed- View Post
        Well my personal belief is there is no evidence for a specific distance
        Originally posted by -qed- View Post
        Where there is difference of opinion you can give personal opinion as long as it is not contrary to islam.


        Salam Sister,

        It is a common knowledge in Islam that it is prohibited to indulge in Tafsir (Interpretation) by mere opinion.

        Al Daarimi reported, "Fear making interpretation of the hadith just like you fear making interpretation of the Qur'aan."

        Forgive me if I'm wrong but from what is evident, you did not really come here with a genuine question, rather you were looking for support to your preconceived personal opinion. So if you're not a Scholar nor a Student of Knowledge, then your above quotes would lead you to a path of self-destruction with an awful abode. May Allah guide us.

        Moving on, you asked whether it is fine to travel for less than a day without a mahram or a husband. The answer would depend on the scholars you follow. Now this can be tricky because laypeople tend to have this urge to follow the strongest ruling (madhab or no madhab) vice their whims and desires. But before I ask on what you follow, I think the more important question is, Is your question still a question ?
        “You don't need anybody to tell you who you are or what you are. You are what you are!”

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Travelling without a mahram

          Originally posted by I See You View Post













          Salam Sister,

          It is a common knowledge in Islam that it is prohibited to indulge in Tafsir (Interpretation) by mere opinion.

          Al Daarimi reported, "Fear making interpretation of the hadith just like you fear making interpretation of the Qur'aan."

          Forgive me if I'm wrong but from what is evident, you did not really come here with a genuine question, rather you were looking for support to your preconceived personal opinion. So if you're not a Scholar nor a Student of Knowledge, then your above quotes would lead you to a path of self-destruction with an awful abode. May Allah guide us.

          Moving on, you asked whether it is fine to travel for less than a day without a mahram or a husband. The answer would depend on the scholars you follow. Now this can be tricky because laypeople tend to have this urge to follow the strongest ruling (madhab or no madhab) vice their whims and desires. But before I ask on what you follow, I think the more important question is, Is your question still a question ?
          :jkk: brother my question still holds even though I already decided to go with a mahram as that is the most stringent of opinions. In case you didn't realise I did ask whether it was a valid interpretation to hold. Some of the points you highlighted are backed by the hanafi madhab but I think you highlighted them coz I wrote in my opinion.

          In case you haven't worked it out I generally follow the hanafi madhab
          Ya Rab! When you give me wealth, do not take away my happiness. When you give me strength, do not take away my intelligence. When you give me victory, do not take away my humility. When you give me humility, do not take away my dignity.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Travelling without a mahram

            Originally posted by -qed- View Post
            :jkk: brother my question still holds even though I already decided to go with a mahram as that is the most stringent of opinions. In case you didn't realise I did ask whether it was a valid interpretation to hold. Some of the points you highlighted are backed by the hanafi madhab but I think you highlighted them coz I wrote in my opinion.

            In case you haven't worked it out I generally follow the hanafi madhab
            Waiyakal Khayr.

            Yes, I have no problem if you follow a legal ruling backed by scholars though I may not agree to the ruling. The issue is when you invent one out of thin air and I'm sure you're also aware that it's an issue.

            Now, regardless of the topic on hand, it is always invalid to interpret a hadith to form a ruling by ourselves unless we are professionally trained to do so and that would require knowledge of Arabic/Qur'an/Hadeeth/Usool Fiqh etc. I once read a hadith where an injured man asked a another man for a ruling on whether he can perform tayammum due to his injury, the other man replied that as long as he has access to water, he cannot perform tayammum, so the injured man performed ghusl, the wounds opened and he died. The Prophet said that the man killed him and May Allah kill that man since he could of asked those with knowledge instead of making ruling without knowledge.

            With that said, your personal interpretation is invalid, a crime and a sin. However, is your interpretation coincidentally founded by an already established legal ruling of scholars ? If yes, then please substantiate it. Do you still wish to continue to discuss in detail about your interpretation ?

            Lastly, if Hanafi madhab allows women to travel alone only within 48 miles, then this is certainly one of the least strict opinions I've ever come across.
            Last edited by I See You; 07-06-16, 11:57 AM.
            “You don't need anybody to tell you who you are or what you are. You are what you are!”

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Travelling without a mahram

              Originally posted by I See You View Post
              Waiyakal Khayr.

              Yes, I have no problem if you follow a legal ruling backed by scholars though I may not agree to the ruling. The issue is when you invent one out of thin air and I'm sure you're also aware that it's an issue.

              Now, regardless of the topic on hand, it is always invalid to interpret a hadith to form a ruling by ourselves unless we are professionally trained to do so and that would require knowledge of Arabic/Qur'an/Hadeeth/Usool Fiqh etc. I once read a hadith where an injured man asked a another man for a ruling on whether he can perform tayammum due to his injury, the other man replied that as long as he has access to water, he cannot perform tayammum, so the injured man performed ghusl, the wounds opened and he died. The Prophet said that the man killed him and May Allah kill that man since he could of asked those with knowledge instead of making ruling without knowledge.

              With that said, your personal interpretation is invalid, a crime and a sin. However, is your interpretation coincidentally founded by an already established legal ruling of scholars ? If yes, then please substantiate it. Do you still wish to continue to discuss in detail about your interpretation ?

              Lastly, if Hanafi madhab allows women to travel alone only within 48 miles, then this is certainly one of the least strict opinions I've ever come across.
              :jkk: brother. You are right that I do not have enough knowledge to make such an interpretation.

              I cannot find the original website but this is another one which specifies on time and not distance http://www.questionsonislam.com/ques...r-travel-alone

              Abu Said al-Khudri (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: “It is not lawful for a woman believing in Allah and the Hereafter to undertake a journey extending over three days or more, except when she is in the company of her father, or her son, or her husband, or her brother, or any other Mahram.”
              1 The issue is reported in another account as two days:
              Abu Said al-Khudri reported: “Allah's Messenger forbade a woman to undertake a journey extending over two days but with her husband, or with a Mahram”
              2 The issue is reported in another account as one day:
              Abu Hurayrah reported Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: It is not lawful for a Muslim woman to travel a night's journey except when there is a Mahram with her.
              3 Giving this Hadith as a proof, Imam Awzai and Abu Layth say the following:
              “It is not lawful for a Muslim woman to travel one-day journey without accompanied by a Mahram with her. However, if the distance is shorter than one-day journey, she can go alone.”
              4 While explaining those Hadiths, the Hadith scholars say the following:
              According to Hanafi School, a Muslim woman without accompanied by her husband or a Mahram must not travel extending three-day distance or more. However, it is permissible for a Muslim woman to go by herself for a distance less than that without those mentioned-above with her. Also in Hidaya it is said that it is Mubah for a Muslim woman to travel alone for less than three-day distance without accompanied by a Mahram.
              5 Imam Ayni also talks about this question and its answer related to that matter: if you said “Aisha traveled alone, without accompanied by a Mahram, Acting upon it, a group from the scholars said a woman could travel without accompanied by a mahram”, I would say to you: “Since Aisha was the mother of all believers, she was Mahram to all. Whoever traveled with her, he or she would be a Mahram. This rule cannot be valid for the other women. That answer belongs to Abu Hanifa.

              Obviously I do not know how authentic this website is and I am wary since the ruling is also attributed to Abu Layth. However this viewpoint is also attributed to Imam al Awza'i

              'Al-Baji Al-Maliki writes:

              ولعل هذا الذي ذكره بعض أصحابنا إنما هو في حال الانفراد والعدد اليسير فأما القوافل العظيمة والطرق المشتركة العامرة المأمونة فإنها عندي مثل البلاد التي يكون فيها الأسواق والتجار فإن الأمن يحصل لها دون ذي محرم ولا امرأة وقد رُوِيَ هذا عن الأوزاعي

              Perhaps what some of our scholars have said regarding the prohibition refers only to cases where the woman is alone or with a small group. As for the great caravans and the secured roadways, they are no different to me than the places of residence that are filled with markets and merchants. In such cases, her safety is secured without the presence of a guardian or female companions. This opinion has been related to us from al-Awza’i.'

              Source: Al-Muntaqa Sharh Al-Muwatta 3/95

              Other scholars have however mentioned that the viewpoint above has no basis in hadeeth but likewise they say the same for the shafi and maliki madhab which permits women to go for hajj with a group of women if no mahram is present. (afaik)
              Last edited by -qed-; 07-06-16, 12:54 PM.
              Ya Rab! When you give me wealth, do not take away my happiness. When you give me strength, do not take away my intelligence. When you give me victory, do not take away my humility. When you give me humility, do not take away my dignity.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Travelling without a mahram

                Originally posted by -qed- View Post
                :jkk: brother. You are right that I do not have enough knowledge to make such an interpretation.

                I cannot find the original website but this is another one which specifies on time and not distance http://www.questionsonislam.com/ques...r-travel-alone

                Abu Said al-Khudri (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: “It is not lawful for a woman believing in Allah and the Hereafter to undertake a journey extending over three days or more, except when she is in the company of her father, or her son, or her husband, or her brother, or any other Mahram.”

                1 The issue is reported in another account as two days:
                Abu Said al-Khudri reported: “Allah's Messenger forbade a woman to undertake a journey extending over two days but with her husband, or with a Mahram”

                2 The issue is reported in another account as one day:
                Abu Hurayrah reported Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: It is not lawful for a Muslim woman to travel a night's journey except when there is a Mahram with her.

                3 Giving this Hadith as a proof, Imam Awzai and Abu Layth say the following:
                “It is not lawful for a Muslim woman to travel one-day journey without accompanied by a Mahram with her. However, if the distance is shorter than one-day journey, she can go alone.”

                4 While explaining those Hadiths, the Hadith scholars say the following:
                According to Hanafi School, a Muslim woman without accompanied by her husband or a Mahram must not travel extending three-day distance or more. However, it is permissible for a Muslim woman to go by herself for a distance less than that without those mentioned-above with her. Also in Hidaya it is said that it is Mubah for a Muslim woman to travel alone for less than three-day distance without accompanied by a Mahram.

                5 Imam Ayni also talks about this question and its answer related to that matter: if you said “Aisha traveled alone, without accompanied by a Mahram, Acting upon it, a group from the scholars said a woman could travel without accompanied by a mahram”, I would say to you: “Since Aisha was the mother of all believers, she was Mahram to all. Whoever traveled with her, he or she would be a Mahram. This rule cannot be valid for the other women. That answer belongs to Abu Hanifa.

                Obviously I do not know how authentic this website is and I am wary since the ruling is also attributed to Abu Layth. However this viewpoint is also attributed to Imam al Awza'i

                'Al-Baji Al-Maliki writes:

                ولعل هذا الذي ذكره بعض أصحابنا إنما هو في حال الانفراد والعدد اليسير فأما القوافل العظيمة والطرق المشتركة العامرة المأمونة فإنها عندي مثل البلاد التي يكون فيها الأسواق والتجار فإن الأمن يحصل لها دون ذي محرم ولا امرأة وقد رُوِيَ هذا عن الأوزاعي

                Perhaps what some of our scholars have said regarding the prohibition refers only to cases where the woman is alone or with a small group. As for the great caravans and the secured roadways, they are no different to me than the places of residence that are filled with markets and merchants. In such cases, her safety is secured without the presence of a guardian or female companions. This opinion has been related to us from al-Awza’i.'

                Source: Al-Muntaqa Sharh Al-Muwatta 3/95

                Other scholars have however mentioned that the viewpoint above has no basis in hadeeth but likewise they say the same for the shafi and maliki madhab which permits women to go for hajj with a group of women if no mahram is present. (afaik)
                I did not see any mention about 'Time' in the post. By 'Time' I suppose you mean 24 Hours (One day) ? 48 Hours (Two days) 72 Hours (Three days) ? I might have overlooked it as I did not see any mention about 'hours/time' rather they only spoke about the 'distance' unless my eyes are tired from fasting :/ . Would you please point it out ?

                I don't know who Abu Layth is, but if that Imam Awzai'i is the Ashab Al Wujuh of Shafi'i madhab, then know that, the authoritative ruling of Shafi'i madhab is not the above attributed to Al Awzai'i.

                Regarding the view of Al Baji, it is based on "Perhaps what some of our scholars have said" and it is said that contemporary speakers makes fatwa out of this vague view. This link clears everything about Al Baji Al Maliki,

                http://hadithguidance.com/jurisprude...elling-mahram/
                http://hadithguidance.com/references...veling-mahram/

                Which brings up a question, Are you looking for the strongest opinion with most evidence ?
                “You don't need anybody to tell you who you are or what you are. You are what you are!”

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Travelling without a mahram

                  Originally posted by I See You View Post
                  I did not see any mention about 'Time' in the post. By 'Time' I suppose you mean 24 Hours (One day) ? 48 Hours (Two days) 72 Hours (Three days) ? I might have overlooked it as I did not see any mention about 'hours/time' rather they only spoke about the 'distance' unless my eyes are tired from fasting :/ . Would you please point it out ?

                  I don't know who Abu Layth is, but if that Imam Awzai'i is the Ashab Al Wujuh of Shafi'i madhab, then know that, the authoritative ruling of Shafi'i madhab is not the above attributed to Al Awzai'i.

                  Regarding the view of Al Baji, it is based on "Perhaps what some of our scholars have said" and it is said that contemporary speakers makes fatwa out of this vague view. This link clears everything about Al Baji Al Maliki,

                  http://hadithguidance.com/jurisprude...elling-mahram/
                  http://hadithguidance.com/references...veling-mahram/

                  Which brings up a question, Are you looking for the strongest opinion with most evidence ?
                  Abd al-Rahman al-Awza'i is the Imam I believe and a school of thought in the 8th century. From what I know he was from the tabi al tabi'in and his school of thought was widespread at the the time in shaam and also later on, in Spain.

                  The time I mean is a 1 day journey is specified. The distance is measured in time i.e. 1 day, 2 day or 3 days. A day is also a unit of time. There is no mention of hours.
                  Of course many scholars have decided to state a specific distance in km/miles from that.

                  Yes what is the strongest opinion? In context I wished to take a train from the city my grandparents live in to the city of my parents. I would have taken it with my female cousins (A group of 6 ranging from 15-30 yo) and the distance is approximately 50 miles. It would take about. 1hr to 1hr 30 mins max by train. One of my mahrams can drop me off now so its no longer an issue but I would still like to have an answer?
                  Ya Rab! When you give me wealth, do not take away my happiness. When you give me strength, do not take away my intelligence. When you give me victory, do not take away my humility. When you give me humility, do not take away my dignity.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Travelling without a mahram

                    By the way, it's 48 miles from the edge of the city, not your home.
                    Secure few moments, everyday, to reflect upon the innumerable blessings of Allah and thank Him for bestowing them upon you.

                    "A person who is blessed with the ability to be grateful, shall never be deprived of barakah and increase in blessings."
                    - Rasulullah (صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم)‎

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Travelling without a mahram

                      Originally posted by -qed- View Post
                      Abd al-Rahman al-Awza'i is the Imam I believe and a school of thought in the 8th century. From what I know he was from the tabi al tabi'in and his school of thought was widespread at the the time in shaam and also later on, in Spain.

                      The time I mean is a 1 day journey is specified. The distance is measured in time i.e. 1 day, 2 day or 3 days. A day is also a unit of time. There is no mention of hours.
                      Of course many scholars have decided to state a specific distance in km/miles from that.

                      Yes what is the strongest opinion? In context I wished to take a train from the city my grandparents live in to the city of my parents. I would have taken it with my female cousins (A group of 6 ranging from 15-30 yo) and the distance is approximately 50 miles. It would take about. 1hr to 1hr 30 mins max by train. One of my mahrams can drop me off now so its no longer an issue but I would still like to have an answer?
                      Aaaaah I see. JazakAllah kahyr.

                      I understand your view point but so long as you don't have the detailed explanation with evidences of the legal ruling which supports your point, then you can never act on it. As you know, this is not a simple matter of reading a hadith(s) in English and interpreting it, fiqh is more like rocket science in which technicalities are involved. For example, you spoke about 'literal' interpretation on it being 1 day by ignoring other narrations, whereas Shaykh Al Islam Imam Al Nawawi literally interpreted it to mean without restriction by reconciling all the ahadeeth. So once you have all the tools intact, we can discuss later on its technicalities.

                      The strongest opinion is subjective. To me it is this,

                      Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani stated, “‘The woman does not travel...’ Thus, ‘journey’ is understood without restriction. It is restricted in Abu Sa’id’s narration with ‘a journey is two days,’ in Abu Hurayrah’s narration with ‘a day and a night,’ and in Ibn ‘Umar’s narration, with ‘three days.’ The majority of scholars have acted upon it generally, on account of the differing wordings. Imam Al Nawawi said, ‘The point in fixing [a limit of time or distance to consider what is or is not a journey] is not what is understood literally from the expression. In fact, everything that is termed ‘safar[a journey]’ is impermissible for a woman, except for when she has a mahram.’” (Fath Al Bari)

                      This above opinion is also supported by the Islamqa link you posted.

                      However, according to Hanafi, the strongest opinion is the 48 something miles distance. If I understood correctly, this I believe is the least strict compared to other opinions. They have their support for this view.

                      Whereas to others, the strongest opinion could be something else. So it all depends on who you trust/follow.

                      And lastly, you will need to consult a scholar regarding your question as the details are important in providing a fatwa which laypeople would not be able to provide basing on few explanations of scholars.
                      “You don't need anybody to tell you who you are or what you are. You are what you are!”

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Travelling without a mahram

                        Originally posted by .mirror. View Post
                        By the way, it's 48 miles from the edge of the city, not your home.
                        Aah it would've been less than 48 miles
                        Ya Rab! When you give me wealth, do not take away my happiness. When you give me strength, do not take away my intelligence. When you give me victory, do not take away my humility. When you give me humility, do not take away my dignity.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Travelling without a mahram

                          Originally posted by I See You View Post
                          Aaaaah I see. JazakAllah kahyr.

                          I understand your view point but so long as you don't have the detailed explanation with evidences of the legal ruling which supports your point, then you can never act on it. As you know, this is not a simple matter of reading a hadith(s) in English and interpreting it, fiqh is more like rocket science in which technicalities are involved. For example, you spoke about 'literal' interpretation on it being 1 day by ignoring other narrations, whereas Shaykh Al Islam Imam Al Nawawi literally interpreted it to mean without restriction by reconciling all the ahadeeth. So once you have all the tools intact, we can discuss later on its technicalities.

                          The strongest opinion is subjective. To me it is this,

                          Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani stated, “‘The woman does not travel...’ Thus, ‘journey’ is understood without restriction. It is restricted in Abu Sa’id’s narration with ‘a journey is two days,’ in Abu Hurayrah’s narration with ‘a day and a night,’ and in Ibn ‘Umar’s narration, with ‘three days.’ The majority of scholars have acted upon it generally, on account of the differing wordings. Imam Al Nawawi said, ‘The point in fixing [a limit of time or distance to consider what is or is not a journey] is not what is understood literally from the expression. In fact, everything that is termed ‘safar[a journey]’ is impermissible for a woman, except for when she has a mahram.’” (Fath Al Bari)

                          This above opinion is also supported by the Islamqa link you posted.

                          However, according to Hanafi, the strongest opinion is the 48 something miles distance. If I understood correctly, this I believe is the least strict compared to other opinions. They have their support for this view.

                          Whereas to others, the strongest opinion could be something else. So it all depends on who you trust/follow.

                          And lastly, you will need to consult a scholar regarding your question as the details are important in providing a fatwa which laypeople would not be able to provide basing on few explanations of scholars.
                          Yes :jkk: brother
                          Ya Rab! When you give me wealth, do not take away my happiness. When you give me strength, do not take away my intelligence. When you give me victory, do not take away my humility. When you give me humility, do not take away my dignity.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Travelling without a mahram

                            Originally posted by AliB View Post
                            Hmm... That sounds a bit harsh and difficult to believe. I mean come on, by the way you quote it, a woman wouldn't even be allowed to go to the local grocery store to buy food without her husband or whatnot. Now that would be
                            Is going to the grocery traveling?
                            *"None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself."* [Al-Bukhari & Muslim]
                            "Mindless are those who only jump when told to jump, cry when told to cry, and laugh when told to laugh. Indeed, they are but sheep." TheStrivingUmmi

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Travelling without a mahram

                              Originally posted by -qed- View Post
                              Is it wrong to interpret the hadeeth literally because from all the hadeeth I have read on the matter there is no mention of actually distance and the most stringent was travelling for the duration of 1 day. For example taking a train from London to Birmingham would take about 2 hours but it is above the distance mentioned by the fuqaha. Is this distance therefore recommended rather than being a stringent ruling
                              Sis, you have to understand that distant of traveling back then was measured based on walking or riding animals. Everyone knew the average time it took to travel or a day, two, or three days. It still applies to today, except that scholars would have to convert that distance to the standards of today. When it was said 1 day or whatever, the distance was understood then.
                              It's almost like saying miles today in one part of the world and converting it to kilometers in another. I'm just giving an example, not saying it's the exact same thing.

                              Allah knows best.
                              *"None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself."* [Al-Bukhari & Muslim]
                              "Mindless are those who only jump when told to jump, cry when told to cry, and laugh when told to laugh. Indeed, they are but sheep." TheStrivingUmmi

                              Comment

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