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Quick question - haram or halal?

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  • Quick question - haram or halal?

    is fruad haram (e.g credit card scams)

    spending money on someone elses credit card which then they get a refund from the bank and the goverment looses money.

  • #2
    Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

    Originally posted by Ray9743 View Post
    is fruad haram (e.g credit card scams)

    spending money on someone elses credit card which then they get a refund from the bank and the goverment looses money.
    Yes it's still stealing
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    • #3
      Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

      Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
      Yes it's still stealing
      +1 ..
      youth before your old age, your health before your sickness, your wealth before your poverty, your free time before you are preoccupied, and your life before your deathhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgE...kS-Qi3nf3tcvPw

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      • #4
        Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

        from the shari point of view it's complicated

        So I don't know

        But I wouldn't though :>
        "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

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        • #5
          Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

          Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
          from the shari point of view it's complicated

          So I don't know

          But I wouldn't though :>

          nothing complicated about it. fraud is fraud.
          OP is asking about charging on someone else's card, even though they wouldn't be liable for fraudulent charges. its STEALING. no ifs, ands or buts.
          لآ اِلَهَ اِلّا اللّهُ مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُوُل اللّهِ

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          • #6
            Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

            Originally posted by Aloo View Post
            nothing complicated about it. fraud is fraud.
            OP is asking about charging on someone else's card, even though they wouldn't be liable for fraudulent charges. its STEALING. no ifs, ands or buts.
            Doesn't matter, I won't say it's haram.

            Sorry, I have not enough knowledge to say this. Also it's complicated because we are talking about darul harb
            "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

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            • #7
              Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

              Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
              from the shari point of view it's complicated

              So I don't know

              But I wouldn't though :>
              what exactly is complicated... it's taking something which is not yours by trickery. That's about as straight forward as it gets.
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              • #8
                Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

                Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
                what exactly is complicated... it's taking something which is not yours by trickery. That's about as straight forward as it gets.
                there are different rulings for different things.

                It's not clear cut haram, it could be haram and also allowed during some occasions. I would say it's disliked, saying haram is a strong word. Since I'm not a scholar I really can't say anything, best is to look to a fatwa and even these are rare because they don't go into detail.

                I don't want to give OP some ideas some I won't give a detailed answer, he shouldn't do it as he will most likely get caught by the kuffar. Also it's not ethical.....
                Last edited by Blackbeard; 20-01-16, 08:32 PM.
                "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

                  Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
                  there are different rulings for different things.

                  It's not clear cut haram, it could be haram and also allowed during some occasions. I would say it's disliked, saying haram is a strong word. Since I'm not a scholar I really can't say anything, best is to look to a fatwa and even these are rare because they don't go into detail.

                  I don't want to give OP some ideas some I won't give a detailed answer, he shouldn't do it as he will most likely get caught by the kuffar. Also it's not ethical.....
                  Do you know of a situation where this sort of fraud would be permissible? You are taking something which is not yours by deception. You are pretending to be the card holder when in actual fact the card holder is someone else.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

                    Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
                    there are different rulings for different things.

                    It's not clear cut haram, it could be haram and also allowed during some occasions. I would say it's disliked, saying haram is a strong word. Since I'm not a scholar I really can't say anything, best is to look to a fatwa and even these are rare because they don't go into detail.

                    I don't want to give OP some ideas some I won't give a detailed answer, he shouldn't do it as he will most likely get caught by the kuffar. Also it's not ethical.....
                    what about this

                    the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The one who cheats (or deceives) us is not one of us.” Narrated by Muslim (101).


                    Muslim (102) also narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever cheats (or deceives) does not belong to me.”
                    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

                      This is why I am very cautious. Also I don't know what these hadith mean exactly and what the scholars have said about it. I noticed the first one says the one who cheats us, meaning the one who cheats muslims are not one of the muslims.

                      The other ahadith, I need context for it. If I recall correctly, Imam shafi'i r.a. forbade deceiving people of treaty, that is if you entered a kafir nation under a treaty, you can't take anything from them or commit stealing through deception. Some claim, mainly the scholars of today that we are in such a treaty when we enter through the usage of Visa and passport, that we need to follow and respect their rules. Some, mainly the scholars of the muhajideen have different fatawas which says that Visa and passport etc are not actual contracts of treaty...

                      Also if I recall correctly, Shafi'i r.a. also said if the nation were infact to be in war with the muslims, one can seize their wealth, I think his example was also if you wanted to get out of there. Hence you have some muslims maxing credit accounts before making hijrah for jihad and such one should refrain from slandering them.

                      About imam shafi'i, don't take it as 100%, my memory isn't the best but I can find the quotes if you want em.


                      to OP, you shouldn't do it, it's not of a muslim to do so
                      Wallahu A'lam...
                      Last edited by Blackbeard; 20-01-16, 09:38 PM.
                      "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

                        Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
                        there are different rulings for different things.

                        It's not clear cut haram, it could be haram and also allowed during some occasions. I would say it's disliked, saying haram is a strong word. Since I'm not a scholar I really can't say anything, best is to look to a fatwa and even these are rare because they don't go into detail.

                        I don't want to give OP some ideas some I won't give a detailed answer, he shouldn't do it as he will most likely get caught by the kuffar. Also it's not ethical.....
                        you don't want to say anything but you just did, by saying it's disliked then if you are wrong then you've made what is a clear haram into halal as disliked is still something allowed

                        btw, if you are alluding to covenants of security, just say so.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

                          Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
                          you don't want to say anything but you just did, by saying it's disliked then if you are wrong then you've made what is a clear haram into halal as disliked is still something allowed

                          btw, if you are alluding to covenants of security, just say so.
                          Woops. I was meant to say I think it is disliked

                          Astaghfirullah. But yes I was aiming at that.

                          But stealing yes it's something very serious, I am just not sure how it is in todays world though...
                          "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

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                          • #14
                            Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

                            Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
                            This is why I am very cautious. Also I don't know what these hadith mean exactly and what the scholars have said about it. I noticed the first one says the one who cheats us, meaning the one who cheats muslims are not one of the muslims.

                            The other ahadith, I need context for it. If I recall correctly, Imam shafi'i r.a. forbade deceiving people of treaty, that is if you entered a kafir nation under a treaty, you can't take anything from them or commit stealing through deception. Some claim, mainly the scholars of today that we are in such a treaty when we enter through the usage of Visa and passport, that we need to follow and respect their rules. Some, mainly the scholars of the muhajideen have different fatawas which says that Visa and passport etc are not actual contracts of treaty...

                            Also if I recall correctly, Shafi'i r.a. also said if the nation were infact to be in war with the muslims, one can seize their wealth, I think his example was also if you wanted to get out of there. Hence you have some muslims maxing credit accounts before making hijrah for jihad and such one should refrain from slandering them.

                            About imam shafi'i, don't take it as 100%, my memory isn't the best but I can find the quotes if you want em.


                            to OP, you shouldn't do it, it's not of a muslim to do so
                            Wallahu A'lam...
                            imam shafi said even if the kuffar break their covenant with the Muslims, it is better even then for them to keep their trusts as otherwise the Muslims will be seen as the dishonourable party.
                            FOLLOW THE NEW BLOG - GINGERBEARDMAN - Muslim, father, husband, writer, defender of ginger rights!

                            www.facebook.com/outreach4Islam - Outreach4Islam have been working together in Leicester, calling the not yet Muslims to Islam since 2006.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Quick question - haram or halal?

                              Originally posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
                              imam shafi said even if the kuffar break their covenant with the Muslims, it is better even then for them to keep their trusts as otherwise the Muslims will be seen as the dishonourable party.
                              I agree, it comes down to being moral and ethical as it's not of a muslim to do so, I however do not believe he said it's impermissible to treat them the way a harbi is treated.
                              "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

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