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What does Islam say about slavery?

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  • #76
    Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

    Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
    No, I am not trying to tell you, the scholars are. You say yourself you're not a scholar but you act like it when you go against them. You are reading the tafsir on one verse which is talking about exactly what I am saying but you are not reading the tafsir of the verse that came later which commanded us to fight the disbelievers. You deriving rulings which goes against the people who sacrificed their whole life for Islam lmao.

    Have you read this verse and it's tafsir?



    http://www.alim.org/library/quran/Al...afsir/TIK/9/28


    It's talking about how we need to fight the ahle kitab until they are forced to pay jizyah or accept the religion. However you see, since the jizyah are reserved for them, then the only option for the non-kitabis is Islam or war.
    I don't know how to resolve the apparent contradiction, either here nor in various other verses. Nevertheless, the one verse does not cancel out the other, as I assume you must agree.

    To transliterate the phrase 'there is no compulsion in religion' as meaning 'no compulsion is required for the people who agree with us anyway' is not credible - you are almost making fun of the verse. A verse that says nothing of meaning.

    Plainly, the issue of compulsion for or against can only arise with those that disagree in the first place.

    As far as i can see you are choosing to place more emphasis on one verse rather than another because that suits your personal preference (ie you like the idea of compulsion).
    Last edited by ExNihilo; 22-01-16, 05:37 PM.

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    • #77
      Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

      Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
      I don't know how to resolve the apparent contradiction, either here nor in various other verses. Nevertheless, the one verse does not cancel out the other, as I assume you must agree.

      To transliterate the phrase 'no compulsion in religion' as meaning 'no compulsion is required for the people who agree with us anyway' is not credible - you are almost making fun of the verse. This would be a tautology. A verse that says nothing of meaning. Plainly, the issue of compulsion for or against can only arise with those that disagree.

      As far as i can see you are choosing to place more emphasis on one verse rather than another because that suits your personal preference (ie you like the idea of compulsion).
      I follow what the scholars have said, they believe that someone who was given dawah and was arrogant to learn and resumed to defended his own religion and commit shirk had to be dealt with. the fact that jews and christians were the only ones who were allowed to not accept Islam through the payment of jizyah and the fact that Allah told us to fight them with the sword until they choose one of the 2 options proves my point already by miles ahead.

      I will leave this conversation as it brings nothing more to the table. If you have issues with what the scholars have said, maybe you can go ask their graves, I mean since you're a christian/atheist/whatever I think it would not be a problem. best bet I guess lmao
      Last edited by Blackbeard; 22-01-16, 05:42 PM.
      "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

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      • #78
        Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

        Originally posted by King1234 View Post
        Im the jahil? I use my brain and logic when explaining my reasons. You told me that god wants us to free slaves but it doesnt mean its not permitted. People like you follow scholars blindly, get your references from ahadith and believe the quran is just there as proof of religion.

        Once you showed me a hadith saying that the ahadith are equal or more than the quran, i knew then I should stop speaking as I wont convince a muslim that the words of god are above all else.

        About you calling me a quranist, like i said i am not. I do believe in most ahadith except the ones that try to tell us what is halal or haram without evidence in the quran and i dont believe in ahadith that contradict with quran such as the one you posted. Just because generations were doing one thing, and me looking at it with a different percpective doesnt make me bad. As i am still a muslim and believe in Allah. I just dont follow blindly and believe whats in my heart.

        I cry when reading the quran, i feel better after it, i feel i added value to my life, i feel hope and love. Yet, i never felt all these things from ahadith.
        that's because ahadith are not something you recite jahil lol i cry after reading quran

        where did you get this weird concept of haram and halal is only in quran?

        if you accept ahadith which are not about haram and haram, then ahadith with the same exact strength prohibitng things exist, why do you reject those? hypocrite with double standards.

        either reject all or don't reject the ones you don't like
        You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

        You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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        • #79
          Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

          Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
          I follow what the scholars have said, they believe that someone who was given dawah and was arrogant to learn and resumed to defended his own religion and commit shirk had to be dealt with. the fact that jews and christians were the only ones who were allowed to not accept Islam through the payment of jizyah and the fact that Allah told us to fight them with the sword until they choose one of the 2 options proves my point already by miles ahead.

          I will leave this conversation as it brings nothing more to the table. If you have issues with what the scholars have said, maybe you can go ask their graves, I mean since you're a christian/atheist/whatever I think it would not be a problem. best bet I guess lmao
          From what you have presented, Ibn Kathir does not compare one verse with the other. So i don't know how he reconciles the apparent contradiction. All you have done is quote them side by side.

          As far as his commentary goes on 'no compulsion in religion', it's absolutely clear that he believes it to mean just that - ie that you can't compel people into faith. They will get there by their own insight, or not at all.

          You have opted instead to take another verse - 'fight against those that believe not in Allah' - and to follow that by itself. Yet it doesn't even make sense with known history. That's not what Muhammad actually did.

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          • #80
            Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

            Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
            that's because ahadith are not something you recite jahil lol i cry after reading quran

            where did you get this weird concept of haram and halal is only in quran?

            if you accept ahadith which are not about haram and haram, then ahadith with the same exact strength prohibitng things exist, why do you reject those? hypocrite with double standards.

            either reject all or don't reject the ones you don't like
            Quran 66:1, but anyways i believe the ahadith that say what is halal and what is haran with no backup from the quran are not sahih. Since only Allah alone has the right to make lawful and prohibit.

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            • #81
              Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

              Originally posted by King1234 View Post
              Quran 66:1, but anyways i believe the ahadith that say what is halal and what is haran with no backup from the quran are not sahih. Since only Allah alone has the right to make lawful and prohibit.
              So you accept a hadith which doesn't have anything to do with haram or halal
              yet
              another hadith with the exact same chain of narration, you are gonna reject it because it's about haram and halal?

              show me a single classical scholar who ever said only quran decided haram and halal

              look, this hadith is not about haram or halal so you should accept it:

              rasoolallah :saw: my ummah will not unite upon error

              now show me a single scholar who said what you are saying, unless you are implying the ummah was united upon error, thus rasoolallah :saw: was wrong (na'oothu billah)
              You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

              You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                So you accept a hadith which doesn't have anything to do with haram or halal
                yet
                another hadith with the exact same chain of narration, you are gonna reject it because it's about haram and halal?

                show me a single classical scholar who ever said only quran decided haram and halal

                look, this hadith is not about haram or halal so you should accept it:

                rasoolallah :saw: my ummah will not unite upon error

                now show me a single scholar who said what you are saying, unless you are implying the ummah was united upon error, thus rasoolallah :saw: was wrong (na'oothu billah)
                I will put it in points so you will understand easier:
                1-To make lawful or prohibit anything is the right of Allah alone.
                2- Quran is the only source of law by Allah
                3- Ahadith are a support for the quran, and to teach muslims the way of the prophet.
                4- I dont follow scholars blindly, some I agree with and some I dont.
                5-God gave us all brains and a conscience, so I would really like doing my own research and understanding my religion more instead of being told what it is.
                6-Again about slavery, if God wants us to free slaves and it can also be used as a way to repent then logicaly that means we should gradually end slavery from being being so dominant like it was in the past.
                7-Allah said in the Quran that it will be protected for all time, didnt see that about ahadith. Or that Allah will protect the Sahih El Bukhari or any other sources.
                8- Allah has no equal just as his words and commands have no equal. Shows the hadith you posted was most probably not sahih.
                9- Im a muslim who thinks outside the box and doesnt just accept whatever is told to me because it was there for centuries. There are older religions who still are so stubborn who dont want to change anything because its been like that for ages, so that was not a good argument.
                10- In the end my muslim brother, if im wrong I will be judged and punished for my, what you call "jahl". And if Im wrong I hope Allah shows me the right path, but im sorry you havent helped me one bit.

                I think that sums up everything, its better we close this conversation as we are not going anywhere and it has turned into an argument, with alot of negative things being said.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                  Originally posted by King1234 View Post
                  I will put it in points so you will understand easier:
                  1-To make lawful or prohibit anything is the right of Allah alone.
                  2- Quran is the only source of law by Allah
                  3- Ahadith are a support for the quran, and to teach muslims the way of the prophet.
                  4- I dont follow scholars blindly, some I agree with and some I dont.
                  5-God gave us all brains and a conscience, so I would really like doing my own research and understanding my religion more instead of being told what it is.
                  6-Again about slavery, if God wants us to free slaves and it can also be used as a way to repent then logicaly that means we should gradually end slavery from being being so dominant like it was in the past.
                  7-Allah said in the Quran that it will be protected for all time, didnt see that about ahadith. Or that Allah will protect the Sahih El Bukhari or any other sources.
                  8- Allah has no equal just as his words and commands have no equal. Shows the hadith you posted was most probably not sahih.
                  9- Im a muslim who thinks outside the box and doesnt just accept whatever is told to me because it was there for centuries. There are older religions who still are so stubborn who dont want to change anything because its been like that for ages, so that was not a good argument.
                  10- In the end my muslim brother, if im wrong I will be judged and punished for my, what you call "jahl". And if Im wrong I hope Allah shows me the right path, but im sorry you havent helped me one bit.

                  I think that sums up everything, its better we close this conversation as we are not going anywhere and it has turned into an argument, with alot of negative things being said.
                  One thing I have noticed with deviants - they never answer the questions you ask them.

                  I cannot believe that even after this hadith

                  “I do not want to find any one of you reclining on his pillow, and when he hears of something that I have commanded or forbidden, he says, ‘Between us and you there stands this Quran, whatever we find is permissible in it we will take as permissible, and whatever we find is forbidden in it we will take as forbidden.’ For I have been given the Book and something like it with it; it is like the Quran or more.”

                  You can still be so stubborn. Your heart has been darkened to such an extent that Rasoolallah :saw: 's words have no effect on you.

                  You remind of me of these verses:

                  Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil....
                  Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path].

                  May Allah guide you.
                  You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                  You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                    One thing I have noticed with deviants - they never answer the questions you ask them.

                    I cannot believe that even after this hadith

                    “I do not want to find any one of you reclining on his pillow, and when he hears of something that I have commanded or forbidden, he says, ‘Between us and you there stands this Quran, whatever we find is permissible in it we will take as permissible, and whatever we find is forbidden in it we will take as forbidden.’ For I have been given the Book and something like it with it; it is like the Quran or more.”

                    You can still be so stubborn. Your heart has been darkened to such an extent that Rasoolallah :saw: 's words have no effect on you.

                    You remind of me of these verses:

                    Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil....
                    Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path].

                    May Allah guide you.
                    Ok thank you

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                      Originally posted by SofiaG View Post
                      Slavery still exists in basically every country in the world today. In fact, there are more slaves today than at ANY OTHER POINT in human history, so if you want something to worry about, worry about that. Not just what Islam's views are on it.
                      Here are the 2014 stats. (2015 hasn't been released yet): http://www.globalslaveryindex.org/findings/
                      Sure. Lets worry about that too. My question is related to Islam though. Stop trying to bring the focus somewhere else. Since Islam is so perfect, why is it still practiced?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                        Originally posted by hassan246 View Post
                        Sure. Lets worry about that too. My question is related to Islam though. Stop trying to bring the focus somewhere else. Since Islam is so perfect, why is it still practiced?
                        Just because Islam is perfect, doesn't mean Muslims are.
                        Anyway, when Islam came, there were many causes of slavery, such as warfare, debt (where if the debtor could not pay off his debt, he became a slave), kidnapping and raids, and poverty and need. The slavery most people think of is very much against Islam. I mean, really. Kidnapping people and enslaving them because of skin color?

                        Islam limited the sources of slaves that existed before the beginning of the Prophet’s mission to one way only: enslavement through war which was imposed on kaafir prisoners-of-war and on their womenfolk and children.
                        Islam is not thirsty for the blood of prisoners, nor is it eager to enslave them.

                        Islam did not abolish slavery altogether, because the kaafir prisoner who was opposed to truth and justice was a wrongdoer, or was a supporter of wrongdoing or was a tool in the execution or approval of wrongdoing. Letting him go free would give him the opportunity to spread wrongdoing and aggression against others and to oppose the truth and prevent it reaching people.

                        Now, how about we talk about some rights of slaves:
                        -Guarantee of food and clothing
                        -Preservation of dignity
                        -Fair and kind treatment
                        -Precedence over free men in some manners
                        -The ability to buy his own freedom

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                          Originally posted by SofiaG View Post
                          Just because Islam is perfect, doesn't mean Muslims are.
                          Anyway, when Islam came, there were many causes of slavery, such as warfare, debt (where if the debtor could not pay off his debt, he became a slave), kidnapping and raids, and poverty and need. The slavery most people think of is very much against Islam. I mean, really. Kidnapping people and enslaving them because of skin color?

                          Islam limited the sources of slaves that existed before the beginning of the Prophet’s mission to one way only: enslavement through war which was imposed on kaafir prisoners-of-war and on their womenfolk and children.
                          Islam is not thirsty for the blood of prisoners, nor is it eager to enslave them.

                          Islam did not abolish slavery altogether, because the kaafir prisoner who was opposed to truth and justice was a wrongdoer, or was a supporter of wrongdoing or was a tool in the execution or approval of wrongdoing. Letting him go free would give him the opportunity to spread wrongdoing and aggression against others and to oppose the truth and prevent it reaching people.

                          Now, how about we talk about some rights of slaves:
                          -Guarantee of food and clothing
                          -Preservation of dignity
                          -Fair and kind treatment
                          -Precedence over free men in some manners
                          -The ability to buy his own freedom
                          It's talk like this that causes people like Britani (assuming he is really who he says he is) to pat themselves on the back for treating slaves in the "correct" manner, when in reality people should just condemn slavery for the abomination it actually is. Slavery should be kept in the past and no attempt made to justify taking away someone's identity and freedom.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                            Originally posted by King1234 View Post
                            Quran 66:1, but anyways i believe the ahadith that say what is halal and what is haran with no backup from the quran are not sahih. Since only Allah alone has the right to make lawful and prohibit.
                            So how do you pray?
                            Narrated Anas:
                            The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself." [Bukhari]

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                              Originally posted by LLS View Post
                              It's talk like this that causes people like Britani (assuming he is really who he says he is) to pat themselves on the back for treating slaves in the "correct" manner, when in reality people should just condemn slavery for the abomination it actually is. Slavery should be kept in the past and no attempt made to justify taking away someone's identity and freedom.
                              Slavery is permitted in Islam. It's not an 'abomination' when practiced in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah.
                              Narrated Anas:
                              The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself." [Bukhari]

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                                Originally posted by ms.muslimah View Post
                                Slavery is permitted in Islam. It's not an 'abomination' when practiced in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah.
                                All slavery is an abomination, how would you feel to be a slave? I bet you wouldn't be comfortable owning any yourself either.

                                Comment

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