Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What does Islam say about slavery?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

    Since that one fatwa didnt do for you, here is a bit more talking about it: https://islamqa.info/en/178756
    You completely misunderstood what the verse actually means. It's not talking about them being allowed to be stubborn and not follow Islam. You need to provide proof that a mushrik non-kitabi can be given the option for jizya.

    Also the lie that Islam wasn't spread with the sword is talked on the other fatwas

    You see there are a lot of ahadith which says that Muhammad :saw: was sent to fight every disbeliever until he testifies that Allah is alone and establishes prayer. Only the ahle kitab are not forced this way.

    http://islamqa.info/en/5441

    Fatwa talks about how Islam was spread through dawah and force, how if they denied, the christians were given the option of jizya, if they refused they are forced to convert or fight the muslims : http://islamqa.info/en/43087

    You can look up the saheeh ahadith which says that nabi :saw: was here to fight every disbeliever until he testifies Allah is alone.
    Last edited by Blackbeard; 22-01-16, 08:39 AM.
    "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

      Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
      Since that one fatwa didnt do for you, here is a bit more talking about it: https://islamqa.info/en/178756
      You completely misunderstood what the verse actually means. It's not talking about them being allowed to be stubborn and not follow Islam. You need to provide proof that a mushrik non-kitabi can be given the option for jizya.

      Also the lie that Islam wasn't spread with the sword is talked on the other fatwas

      You see there are a lot of ahadith which says that Muhammad :saw: was sent to fight every disbeliever until he testifies that Allah is alone and establishes prayer. Only the ahle kitab are not forced this way.

      http://islamqa.info/en/5441

      Fatwa talks about how Islam was spread through dawah and force, how if they denied, the christians were given the option of jizya, if they refused they are forced to convert or fight the muslims : http://islamqa.info/en/43087

      You can look up the saheeh ahadith which says that nabi :saw: was here to fight every disbeliever until he testifies Allah is alone.
      Its a good thing I don't get my knowledge of the Deen from IslamQA. Alhamdulillah, I have studied with scholars and do not need to resort to random fatwas to understand the basics of this Deen.

      Anyways, if you actually read that fatwa that you posted (https://islamqa.info/en/178756), you'll see that it supports the fact that the verse regarding no compulsion is general and not just for people of the book.

      Sure, Rasulullah :saw: was sent to fight every disbeliever and so on, but how was that actually applied? You won't find that answer on IslamQA. You have to get off the internet and actually study the Deen at the feet of the scholars in order to learn these things.
      Last edited by abdulsidd; 22-01-16, 02:17 PM.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

        Anyways, any misunderstanding that may have resulted from your post has been cleared now, so no point wasting more time with you. InshaAllah, you'll come to a proper understanding as you continue to study the Deen, but try to study with scholars rather than on your own.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

          Originally posted by abdulsidd View Post
          Its a good thing I don't get my knowledge of the Deen from IslamQA. Alhamdulillah, I have studied with scholars and do not need to resort to random fatwas to understand the basics of this Deen.

          Anyways, if you actually read that fatwa that you posted (https://islamqa.info/en/178756), you'll see that it supports the fact that the verse regarding no compulsion is general and not just for people of the book.

          Sure, Rasulullah :saw: was sent to fight every disbeliever and so on, but how was that actually applied? You won't find that answer on IslamQA. You have to get off the internet and actually study the Deen at the feet of the scholars in order to learn these things.
          I don't take my deen from Islamqa sorry, it's just that it's the only fatwa site who still has not deleted the old fatwas from Shaykh Bin Baaz. If you are accusing someone of lying or manipulating the Quran, you are accusing Bin baaz of doing it. And somehow now suddenly it seems that you don't favor scholarly views and you rather want me to talk with no knowledge, sorry mate but no I won't do that, I will keep linking to scholars instead of pretending I have enough knowledge like you do.

          Also you say you studied the deen with scholars but you don't know the fiqh of Jihad and how jizya is applied because according to you, the verse from surah baqarah means that a mushrik hindu can practice freely in an islamic state because "there is no compulsion". Yet you dare to enter a subject which shows your lack of understanding.

          Or let me guess, you don't follow Bin baz because they are wahabi? I really don't know your issue, you might be a wacko sufi.
          Originally posted by abdulsidd View Post
          Anyways, if you actually read that fatwa that you posted (https://islamqa.info/en/178756), you'll see that it supports the fact that the verse regarding no compulsion is general and not just for people of the book.
          So you studied the deen but have no idea what you are saying.

          Anyways the fatwa you linked, you have the tendency to nitpick what you like and remove what you don't. The shaykh explains how it does not contradict with the other jihad verses and the "no compulsion" means when they understand the truth to be clear as day and night there would be no compulsion to join as they would not feel like there is any. The one who still doesn't convert after being shown the path is an arrogant who has corruption in his heart and who is fighting against Allah and thus needs to be subjugated.

          The meaning of this verse is that the teachings of Islam are very clear and the proof and evidence of its soundness are so clear and definitive that there is no need for compulsion. Whoever comes to know the reality of Islam and is not stubborn or arrogant will enter Islam willingly. Rather the one who does not want to enter it is the one who is arrogant and stubborn, who does not accept Allah as his Lord or His Prophet as his messenger, and does not believe in the Book that was revealed to him. For that reason, those mushrikeen who adhere to their false religion and fight in support of their religion out of arrogance and seek to spread mischief and kufr on earth are to be fought.
          And

          As-Sa‘di (may Allah have mercy on him) said: This refers to the perfection of Islam, because its proofs are perfect and the signs of its soundness are clear. Because it is the religion of reason and knowledge, the religion of sound human nature and of wisdom, the religion of righteousness and piety, the religion of truth and guidance, and it is perfect and acceptable to human nature, there is no need to compel anyone to enter it, because compulsion is only needed in the case of that which is off-putting and contrary to the facts and truth, or that of which the proofs and signs are not clear. Otherwise, anyone who comes to know this religion then rejects it and does not accept it, it is because of his stubbornness, because right path has become distinct from the wrong path, so no one has any excuse for rejecting it and not accepting it. There is no contradiction between this idea and the many verses that speak of jihad. Allah enjoined fighting so that the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone and to ward off the aggression of those who are hostile towards Islam. The Muslims are unanimously agreed that jihad is ongoing and that jihad in word and in deed is a permanent obligation. Any commentator who thinks that this verse contradicts the verses of jihad, and is certain that it has been abrogated, holds a weak view, as is obvious from the wording and the meaning and as is clear to anyone who studies the verse, as we have pointed out.

          End quote from Tafseer as-Sa‘di, p. 954
          You however, being how you are, tries to claim that the mushriks has excuses to reject Islam based on a verse you quoted out of context.

          Also you have this verse here

          “Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” [at-Tawbah 9:29].
          As you can see, Allah tells us to fight them until they acknowledge the truth but with the christian and the jew who does not acknowledge the religion of Islam due to his stubbornness, and due to the mercy of Allah to his older nations, he has enjoyed them the option to pay Jizyah instead of converting or being a harbi. This option however are reserved for them (and magians) and cannot be issued to a cow worshipper for example.

          Then you have Ibn Qudaamah r.a. saying this

          If one whom it is not permissible to compel is compelled to enter Islam, such as a dhimmi (non-Muslim living under Muslim rule) or a non-Muslim who has been granted security, he is not deemed to be a Muslim unless he shows signs of having become Muslim voluntarily.

          End quote from al-Mughni, 10/96.
          What is meant here is that they were of the view that the ahle Dhimma or the non-muslim who were given treaty being the jews and the christians are not forced to be compelled because of their option to pay jizyah. This individual needs to become a muslim voluntarily because he still has the option to pay tax. Hence the shaykh deems it as impermissible oposed to the permissibility of doing it to other mushriks.

          And last but not least Shaykh al-Islam ibn tayymiyah r.a.

          The disbelief of one who is compelled to leave Islam is not to be regarded as anything significant and neither is the faith of one who is compelled unlawfully to believe, such as the dhimmi who is complying with the conditions (of being protected by the Muslim state and so on), as Allah, may He be exalted, says concerning him: “There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path” [al-Baqrah 2:256]. This is unlike the one who is compelled (to enter Islam) for a legitimate reason, such as those who were fought of people who are in a state of war with the Muslims, until they become Muslim, if the fight against them was to make them choose between becoming Muslim or paying the jizyah.
          End quote from al-Istiqaamah, 2/320
          Now since will you claim you are more knowledgeable than these great men who considered the "forcing" of religion as permissible in sharia if it comes under the issue that

          1. The individual is arrogant and stubborn to accept Islam and thus he is waging war against Allah and he has no excuse

          2. The option of Jizya is not available for the mushrik and thus he needs to enter Islam even if he was told that he'd be fighting the muslims as him not entering makes him a harbi.
          Last edited by Blackbeard; 22-01-16, 02:50 PM.
          "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

            Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post

            he shaykh explains how it does not contradict with the other jihad verses and the "no compulsion" means when they understand the truth to be clear as day and night there would be no compulsion to join as they would not feel like there is any. .
            Are you reporting this accurately? According to you, the shaykh is saying that no compulsion is necessary for people who agree anyway.

            Obviously, this is a silly statement.

            Did he really say this?

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

              Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
              Are you reporting this accurately? According to you, the shaykh is saying that no compulsion is necessary for people who agree anyway.

              Obviously, this is a silly statement.

              Did he really say this?
              Yes, even the best scholars in Islam considered this. This is because of the preceding verse after the no compulsion part that says "Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path" which means that they have no excuse by saying that Islam isn't the right path. Allah has sworn and made a decree and anyone who objects after being shown this religion is arrogant and stubborn.

              The one who enters of the christians needs to enter voluntarily as he has the option for Jizya, the other mushrik needs to be given dawah and if he refuses to enter Islam it is deemed as his ignorance because Allah has said "Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path" and thus he is waging war against Allah and his messenger and he needs to convert or else he is a harbi.


              This other user however cannot bring a single evidence from reputable scholars and instead hides behind a smokescreen and saying that "ive studied the deen, you have not and thus you are wrong" without actually bringing anything to the table.
              Last edited by Blackbeard; 22-01-16, 02:59 PM.
              "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
                Yes, even the best scholars in Islam considered this. This is because of the preceding verse after the no compulsion part that says "Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path" which means that they have no excuse by saying that Islam isn't the right path. Allah has sworn and made a decree and anyone who objects after being shown this religion is arrogant and stubborn.

                The one who enters of the christians needs to enter voluntarily as he has the option for Jizya, the other mushrik needs to be given dawah and if he refuses to enter Islam it is deemed as his ignorance because Allah has said "Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path" and thus he is waging war against Allah and his messenger and he needs to convert or else he is a harbi.
                .
                I'm struggling to see how this makes any sense. The statement that someone who sees, understands and accepts islam (upon being introduced to it) needs no compulsion is a statement of the obvious. Compulsion doesn't come into the matter because they agree anyway. So this group should be left aside - they cannot have been the subject of the verse.

                The group that matters, the group that the verse must be referring to, is the group who see but do not accept islam. You are saying, it's therefore ok to compel them. I assume we're including physical threats as part of this compulsion. Jews and Chrisitians have a third option (jizyah) and it's an arguable point how arduous or 'compulsive' this was.

                But for all others, you're saying that compulsion including physical compulsion is permissible? And you think that when the Quran says 'Let there be no compulsion', this is somehow what it means?

                This is far from obvious.
                Last edited by ExNihilo; 22-01-16, 03:52 PM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                  Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
                  Yes, even the best scholars in Islam considered this. This is because of the preceding verse after the no compulsion part that says "Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path" which means that they have no excuse by saying that Islam isn't the right path. Allah has sworn and made a decree and anyone who objects after being shown this religion is arrogant and stubborn.

                  The one who enters of the christians needs to enter voluntarily as he has the option for Jizya, the other mushrik needs to be given dawah and if he refuses to enter Islam it is deemed as his ignorance because Allah has said "Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path" and thus he is waging war against Allah and his messenger and he needs to convert or else he is a harbi.


                  This other user however cannot bring a single evidence from reputable scholars and instead hides behind a smokescreen and saying that "ive studied the deen, you have not and thus you are wrong" without actually bringing anything to the table.
                  I heard/read somewhere that the mushrikeen have the option to leave the Muslim land. Is that right?
                  Winning an argument doesn't mean you're on truth, losing an argument doesn't mean you're on falsehood.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                    Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                    I'm struggling to see how this makes any sense. The statement that someone who sees, understands and accepts islam (upon being introduced to it) needs no compulsion is a statement of the obvious. Compulsion doesn't come into the matter because they agree anyway. So this group should be left aside - they cannot have been the subject of the verse.

                    The group that matters, the group that the verse must be referring to, is the group who see but do not accept islam. You are saying, it's therefore ok to compel them. I assume we're including physical threats as part of this compulsion. Jews and Chrisitians have a third option (jizyah) and it's an arguable point how arduous or 'compulsive' this was.

                    But for all others, you're saying that compulsion including physical compulsion is permissible? And you think that when the Quran says 'Let there be no compulsion', this is somehow what it means?

                    This is far from obvious.
                    Some say this verse was abrogated by the command to fight the disbelievers until there is no more fitnah and worship is for Allah alone. This however is a very weak opinion.

                    The second party says the verse about no compulsion is aimed towards the jews and the christians because as you know, they are still allowed to keep their faiths and practice it under the sharia of Allah. This is why Jizyah exists and was given as an option to pay on the basis that they have religious freedoms. And as you are aware, it only exists for ahle kitab. This means those who are not part of it cannot pay jizya and thus needs to accept Islam as their way of life.

                    The third group says that this means as what I explained earlier. That the compulsion in religion means that after the individual has been introduced to the religion, he should have no issues accepting it as its truth and thus him entering would not be forced or feel forced however him not doing it after being shown the truth is arrogant and waging war against Allah. And that the ahle dhimma (the ahle kitab) cannot be forced at all.


                    But no one, I say no scholar of the past who is credible has said what the other user is saying. You see, shaykh al islam considered it to be permissible to impose the religion of Islam upon the non-dhimmis and this was the view of the vast majority.

                    Originally posted by bhshawon View Post
                    I heard/read somewhere that the mushrikeen have the option to leave the Muslim land. Is that right?
                    Allah knows best but the non-kitabi has no option for jizyah and thus the religion of Islam is imposed upon them. I don't know about them going into exile but heh I dont know if it's not allowed but god knows best. I would assume they have the option to fight or leave
                    Last edited by Blackbeard; 22-01-16, 04:05 PM.
                    "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                      Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
                      But no one, I say no scholar of the past who is credible has said what the other user is saying. You see, shaykh al islam considered it to be permissible to impose the religion of Islam upon the non-dhimmis and this was the view of the vast majority.
                      I'm no scholar, but Ibn Kathir for example said this which appears to contradict you:

                      There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ (There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty

                      (Tafsir Ibn Kathir Part 3: Surah Al-Baqaray, Ayat 253 to 286, Surah Al-Imran, Ayat 1 to 92, )

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                        Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                        I'm no scholar, but Ibn Kathir for example said this which appears to contradict you:

                        There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ (There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty

                        (Tafsir Ibn Kathir Part 3: Surah Al-Baqaray, Ayat 253 to 286, Surah Al-Imran, Ayat 1 to 92, )
                        It proves my point though. No one is forcing them because there is no need to force them when they've been shown Islam as "the evidences are plain and clear" and therefor there is no reason to force anyone as one would force someone to follow a religion because it has falsehood and lies in it and since the evidences are plain and clear, there is no rooms for excuses to not accept it.

                        Also you cannot just read Tafsir like that, it's not going indepth. You need to refer to scholars and the shaykh of islam of Ahlus sunnah is Ibn tayymiyah. It doesn't get more authentic than this.
                        "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                          Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
                          It proves my point though. No one is forcing them because there is no need to force them when they've been shown Islam as "the evidences are plain and clear" and therefor there is no reason to force anyone as one would force someone to follow a religion because it has falsehood and lies in it and since the evidences are plain and clear, there is no rooms for excuses to not accept it.

                          Also you cannot just read Tafsir like that, it's not going indepth. You need to refer to scholars and the shaykh of islam of Ahlus sunnah is Ibn tayymiyah. It doesn't get more authentic than this.
                          I'm afraid I really don't think he is agreeing with you at all. He says, 'there is no need to fore anyone to embrace islam'. I'm pretty clear I understand what this means.

                          But you're trying to tell me what he actually means is, you are allowed to compel people by any means available including physical force!

                          This is the exact opposite of what he is saying!

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                            Originally posted by King1234 View Post
                            I have seen enough evidence in the quran where Allah says the quran is his only source of law. Saying anything is like the quran or more is very sad to hear from a muslim. Im sorry but I will always believe the words of god above any man. Just alot of ahadith are proved to be sahih doesnt make them all 100% sahih. Since again in the quran Allah said he will protect the quran,didnt see anything about protecting the ahadith. And there have been alot of weak hadith too and made up hadith throughout history. So as a muslim im not taking the risk of fully believing in something that was man made and there is a possibility of it having errors. If you guys are going to joke about eating cats and dogs not being mentioned, please read the quran go to the ayat that are about halal and haram food and you will understand,i will not do your research for you.

                            Now its feels like people forgot the quran and only get their info from ahadith. Reminds me of how christianity started but good luck.
                            Lol jahil, comparing ahadith with christianity.

                            the early muslims, ALL of them, regardless of sect believed in ahadith. You quranists are a product of yesterday.

                            yes you are right, just like christianity, it started well but then deviants like you appeared.

                            'very sad to hear' lol what a jahil slandering thousands of years of muslims and implying your quranist breed which was born only yesterday suddenly got it right

                            what a joker you are tbh

                            you should be ashamed of yourself
                            You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                            You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                              Originally posted by ExNihilo View Post
                              I'm afraid I really don't think he is agreeing with you at all. He says, 'there is no need to fore anyone to embrace islam'. I'm pretty clear I understand what this means.

                              But you're trying to tell me, what he actually means is, you are allowed to force people by any means available to take the faith.

                              This is the opposite of what he is saying!
                              No, I am not trying to tell you, the scholars are. You say yourself you're not a scholar but you act like it when you go against them. You are reading the tafsir on one verse which is talking about exactly what I am saying but you are not reading the tafsir of the verse that came later which commanded us to fight the disbelievers. You deriving rulings which goes against the people who sacrificed their whole life for Islam lmao.

                              Have you read this verse and it's tafsir?

                              http://www.alim.org/library/quran/Al...afsir/TIK/9/28


                              It's talking about how we need to fight the ahle kitab until they are forced to pay jizyah or accept the religion. However you see, since the jizyah are reserved for them, then the only option for the non-kitabis is Islam or war.
                              "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: What does Islam say about slavery?

                                Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                                Lol jahil, comparing ahadith with christianity.

                                the early muslims, ALL of them, regardless of sect believed in ahadith. You quranists are a product of yesterday.

                                yes you are right, just like christianity, it started well but then deviants like you appeared.

                                'very sad to hear' lol what a jahil slandering thousands of years of muslims and implying your quranist breed which was born only yesterday suddenly got it right

                                what a joker you are tbh

                                you should be ashamed of yourself
                                Im the jahil? I use my brain and logic when explaining my reasons. You told me that god wants us to free slaves but it doesnt mean its not permitted. People like you follow scholars blindly, get your references from ahadith and believe the quran is just there as proof of religion.

                                Once you showed me a hadith saying that the ahadith are equal or more than the quran, i knew then I should stop speaking as I wont convince a muslim that the words of god are above all else.

                                About you calling me a quranist, like i said i am not. I do believe in most ahadith except the ones that try to tell us what is halal or haram without evidence in the quran and i dont believe in ahadith that contradict with quran such as the one you posted. Just because generations were doing one thing, and me looking at it with a different percpective doesnt make me bad. As i am still a muslim and believe in Allah. I just dont follow blindly and believe whats in my heart.

                                I cry when reading the quran, i feel better after it, i feel i added value to my life, i feel hope and love. Yet, i never felt all these things from ahadith.

                                Comment

                                Collapse

                                Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                                Working...
                                X