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  • #46
    Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

    Originally posted by Vishnu View Post
    Yeah, you got that right people made all those inventions by applying Scientific Method

    How do you know, who made people / life possible?

    If tomorrow Science devises a way to create life in laboratory from inanimate matter, it still would not be enough to conclude that life came about that way. One would still be inclined to believe that it is God that performed that experiment or if there is yet another way (among zillion others) to create life.

    However, still Science is the way to go as it really works!
    actually no. You see the atheist criteria is we don't know what made us, cant disprove God and cant really prove how it started. so unreliable. hence the term ''by your criteria''

    Science only copies things, its not ''new'' everything we have is based on what someone knew

    What you will also find about science is that it actually changes regularly and overtime gets proven more wrong than right. so claims like spectral deviation were seen as the truth and then ''bang'' (see what I did there) they were wrong

    problem is that everything science does is to kind of prove the big bang, everything in essence is done in the context of the big bang and certain rules or laws have to be left out or ''explained away'' for other things to fit

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    • #47
      Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

      Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
      actually no. You see the atheist criteria is we don't know what made us, cant disprove God and cant really prove how it started. so unreliable. hence the term ''by your criteria''

      Science only copies things, its not ''new'' everything we have is based on what someone knew

      What you will also find about science is that it actually changes regularly and overtime gets proven more wrong than right. so claims like spectral deviation were seen as the truth and then ''bang'' (see what I did there) they were wrong

      problem is that everything science does is to kind of prove the big bang, everything in essence is done in the context of the big bang and certain rules or laws have to be left out or ''explained away'' for other things to fit
      You can't pigeonhole Science to any specific purpose. There are so many purposes that Science is being applied as we are speaking in fields as diverse as medicine, engineering, economy, business and so on. They all have simpler and more utilitarian purposes than a physicist trying to explain the beginning of Universe

      People embrace Science because it works and it is reliable, small or big way doesn't matter

      You can call it by any other name. People have been experimenting and finding new and better way to do things, from times immemorial and even before the invention of wheel!

      Religion covers other human necessities like morality, ethics and spirituality, that can't be proved this way or that way

      If we know the domains of Religion and Science and where they are applicable, then we would know that they are both complementing each other and each has its own utility for humanity.
      Not knowing what one doesn't know will lead to difficulty

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

        Originally posted by truepath View Post
        Jews used to ask too many questions and thats what lead to their doom.

        No harm in asking question if its to seek knowledge otherwise its a disaster.

        How about get up at night before fajr at tahajjud time and sincerely beg to Allah to open your heart, clear your doubts and settle your Imaan.

        When u say region, what region are you refering to? How about contacting scholars on the internet? Such as askimam.org etc

        Basically, if your fundamental knowledge in your deen is strong then it wouldn't shake you and Islam doesn't needs to be complimented by science. Its free from that, infact its the other way around.

        What is science? except for ideas of people aka scientists... half the theories they have are not even provable except for their claims and every theory is overridden and disproved by another theory over the years... so you think science is that reliable?
        I love it when others tell you to not ask too many questions - that is the worst possible advice you can give to anyone. To the OP, you have doubts for a reason, congratulations (I'm NOT being sarcastic). It shows you don' take in everything blindly. I find it useless asking scholars - so many of them are so self-righteous, they won't be able to open their eyes wide enough to give you a proper answer. I had a lot of issues with accepting that the Prophet married a 6/9 year old - whatever the age was and I never got a satisfactory answer.

        Research your beliefs thoroughly and research your questions. Science is important but remember that it's still young so it won't be able to answer higher spiritual questions. Science is a confirmation of God's existence and the philosophy in the Qur'an. Having said that, PM me if you want, I won't give you hogwash answers

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        • #49
          Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

          This video is really good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ0VI95OzB4
          Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind):
          “If you (really) love Allāh then follow me (i.e. accept Islāmic Monotheism, follow the Qur’ān and the Sunnah), Allāh will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allāh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Aali Imran 3:31)

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Yusuf_ View Post
            Also, if God really originated the existence of things, what's the point of creating a Universe this Big, and we're the only one living it?

            I really don't think we can prove God unless we have a material evidence. Otherwise it's just a theory like every other thousands of theories

            So this kinda made me thinking
            It's an ayah, a sign from allah.

            And if you're saying that you believe in big bang then let acknowledge you something, some scientists suggest that big bang never happened.
            A black hole vomitted which resulted in the formation of universe.
            There are lots of theory.

            Why not you tell me how does light travels through space?
            Light travels in a form of waves.
            And if a particular thing is moving in a wave it disturbs the surrounding,
            But in case of space, tjere is nothing being disturbed while the light is propogating in a form of wave.(idea of Nikola Tesla)

            Also, when an object is moving with a speed of more than 10% of the speed of light, then they travel in future, but that's not the case of neutrinos, and many other particals
            www.treasureofthescholars.wordpress.com

            Comment


            • #51
              I had a lot of issues with accepting that the Prophet married a 6/9 year old - whatever the age was and I never got a satisfactory answer.
              This question bugged me too.

              Shaheed in sha allah Imam anwar al-awlaqi has given a beautiful answer to that question, i remember it was in the series of 'the life of prophet muhammad' in makkan period, sorry i forgot the name of the lecture, go through some lectures in sha allah you'll find it and will be satisfied.
              www.treasureofthescholars.wordpress.com

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

                Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
                1. actually no. You see the atheist criteria is we don't know what made us, cant disprove God and cant really prove how it started. so unreliable. hence the term ''by your criteria''

                2. Science only copies things, its not ''new'' everything we have is based on what someone knew

                3. What you will also find about science is that it actually changes regularly and overtime gets proven more wrong than right. so claims like spectral deviation were seen as the truth and then ''bang'' (see what I did there) they were wrong

                problem is that everything science does is to kind of prove the big bang, everything in essence is done in the context of the big bang and certain rules or laws have to be left out or ''explained away'' for other things to fit
                1. That is not true. We know exactly where we came from. We can trace it for millions of years, all the way back to the simplest organisms. We have reasonable hypotheses as to the origins of organic life. We don't need to disprove god as he is not necessary for any of the known explanations for things, including all the ones that we used to "know" were caused by gods. So not unreliable at all.

                2. Science does not "only copy things". That is just simply wrong. The fact that everything is based on previous knowledge is both obvious and meaningless. By your criteria the Quran is not new but copied from what someone already knew. (This is what actually happened. BTW)

                3. Science does not change, it is a process not a fact, but as we make new discoveries with improved methods & technologies, some of the findings are superseded. This is how science works. The idea that you can arrive at a perfect solution first go, and then stop searching is an anathema to the human spirit. Our minds force us to ask questions and look for answers, unless we are continually told that we already know everything we need to know. This way lies the stagnation of civilisations. It is simply not true that accepted theories are proved wrong more often than right. Do you have any idea how much research goes into trying to disprove theories? If something is found to be wrong, we learn any lessons apparent, and move on. (Spectral deviation? Remind me.)

                4. Cosmology and the Big Bang is a tiny part of science. The vast majority of fields would continue quite happily without it. Religion is displaying its usual hubris when it assumes that the purpose of scientific progress is to disprove god. It is merely a by-product of its findings. A happy coincidence if you like. The thing that most religionists don't understand is that atheism comes from science, not the other way around. They assume that because they have a fixed theoretical world view and try to force reality to comply to it, that everyone else does the same. Scientists (and others who work via logic and reason) view the observable, real world and then try to find ways to explain it based on the evidence. We then test these explanations. If they work, our confidence in them increases. We don't try to force reality to fit the hypothesis! Which rules and laws are left out for which hypotheses? You need to back up such sweeping assertions with some facts.

                I always smile at the irony of Muslims dismissing the findings of science, yet relying on the findings of science to prove their "Scientific Miracles of the Quran". All of which are only miraculous to those who don't know the science.
                I also like your assertion that, under science "certain rules or laws have to be left out or ''explained away'' for other things to fit". This is exactly what religion does all the time. It is an absolute requirement for miracles to happen! As I said, show me a case where this happens in real-world science (outside of cutting-edge theoretical physics, where these are very tentative hypotheses, open to question and challenge. They do not say "this is what happened, no discussion").

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

                  Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                  1. That is not true. We know exactly where we came from. We can trace it for millions of years, all the way back to the simplest organisms. We have reasonable hypotheses as to the origins of organic life. We don't need to disprove god as he is not necessary for any of the known explanations for things, including all the ones that we used to "know" were caused by gods. So not unreliable at all.

                  2. Science does not "only copy things". That is just simply wrong. The fact that everything is based on previous knowledge is both obvious and meaningless. By your criteria the Quran is not new but copied from what someone already knew. (This is what actually happened. BTW)

                  3. Science does not change, it is a process not a fact, but as we make new discoveries with improved methods & technologies, some of the findings are superseded. This is how science works. The idea that you can arrive at a perfect solution first go, and then stop searching is an anathema to the human spirit. Our minds force us to ask questions and look for answers, unless we are continually told that we already know everything we need to know. This way lies the stagnation of civilisations. It is simply not true that accepted theories are proved wrong more often than right. Do you have any idea how much research goes into trying to disprove theories? If something is found to be wrong, we learn any lessons apparent, and move on. (Spectral deviation? Remind me.)

                  4. Cosmology and the Big Bang is a tiny part of science. The vast majority of fields would continue quite happily without it. Religion is displaying its usual hubris when it assumes that the purpose of scientific progress is to disprove god. It is merely a by-product of its findings. A happy coincidence if you like. The thing that most religionists don't understand is that atheism comes from science, not the other way around. They assume that because they have a fixed theoretical world view and try to force reality to comply to it, that everyone else does the same. Scientists (and others who work via logic and reason) view the observable, real world and then try to find ways to explain it based on the evidence. We then test these explanations. If they work, our confidence in them increases. We don't try to force reality to fit the hypothesis! Which rules and laws are left out for which hypotheses? You need to back up such sweeping assertions with some facts.

                  I always smile at the irony of Muslims dismissing the findings of science, yet relying on the findings of science to prove their "Scientific Miracles of the Quran". All of which are only miraculous to those who don't know the science.
                  I also like your assertion that, under science "certain rules or laws have to be left out or ''explained away'' for other things to fit". This is exactly what religion does all the time. It is an absolute requirement for miracles to happen! As I said, show me a case where this happens in real-world science (outside of cutting-edge theoretical physics, where these are very tentative hypotheses, open to question and challenge. They do not say "this is what happened, no discussion").
                  science is always trying to compete or disprove God

                  The quran is based on something someone already knew. It was REVEALED to mankind

                  Science changes every day. What they thought caused things is always being re thought.

                  I agree science gets used as a catch all term and what some of it does is simply technology etc. The cosmology nad big bang stuff is not unanimous even in scientific circles by any stretch of the imagination

                  I cant speak for everyone who does X Y and Z, but I don't see Islam as relying on the science to prove anything. I see sometimes muslims saying ''aahh ok that is what the quran meant'' which is explained as some things will come to pass. Quran is for past present an d future. science just confirms these sayings when it eventually catches up

                  If you have questions re religion and gaps then its your task to seek the answers, if it is important to you

                  For me it was important to my belief to check somethings out and I found them wanting. If a theory doesn't fit simple invent another one. If you find a single hip bone and want to strengthen a theory simple get artists to do an impression and pass it as real

                  Its ironic you say no challenge. In todays world Islam currently is getting scrutinised with a microscope yet publicly question global warming and get slated

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                  • #54
                    Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

                    Originally posted by Speculation
                    Atheism is the belief that nothing caused nothing which caused something which formed stars and planets and dinosaurs.
                    No. Atheism means one thing only.
                    That you see no reasonable evidence which leads you to believe that gods exist.

                    That is all. We do not say that god definitely does not exist, 100%. It does not colour your political, economic, social etc, views. You will find that many people's atheism is as a result of knowledge and science. They just cannot reconcile knowledge of the real world with the doctrines of religions. As I've said before, it's no coincidence that over 95% of the members of the world's two top scientific institutions are atheists. It's not because you have to be an atheist to be a scientist. It's because you cannot be a scientist if you deceive yourself.

                    You are talking about the origin of the universe (we have reasonable, testable explanations for how everything happened after that and they have nothing to do with atheism). No one knows what happened before the Big Bang. Science may find out, it may not but saying "we don't know so it must have been a god" resolves nothing.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

                      so..where do we exactly come from?


                      Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                      1. That is not true. We know exactly where we came from. We can trace it for millions of years, all the way back to the simplest organisms. We have reasonable hypotheses as to the origins of organic life. We don't need to disprove god as he is not necessary for any of the known explanations for things, including all the ones that we used to "know" were caused by gods. So not unreliable at all.

                      ...
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

                        Originally posted by .Hajar. View Post
                        so..where do we exactly come from?
                        I came from my mummy's tummy.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

                          well..where did the first person come from?
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

                            Originally posted by .Hajar. View Post
                            well..where did the first person come from?
                            Their mummies tummy, and all the way back to the single celled organism.

                            Beyond that, I cannot tell you, other than there are some ideas floating around.

                            If you are an atheist, you have to be comfortable that there are some questions yet unanswered.

                            Someone who cannot handle that, would need religion to provide answers from the supernatural.

                            Someone who needs answers bad enough that they can accept answers with no evidence, is free to be religious.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

                              Originally posted by Speculation
                              That one clearly went over your head.

                              But in essence, this is why I can never take atheism seriously.

                              To conclude life came into existence out of thin air by sheer luck, in my eyes, is madness.

                              Whether religion is true or not is something I have no idea about. It's why I registered this forum.
                              It didn't go over his head, it's just that the word has a meaning, and he explained it to you.

                              To be an atheist, you do not have to believe that life came into existence out of thin air. That is not what the word means.

                              It's about being unconvinced about the existence of god. You can be an atheist and accept that "the answer" is unknown.

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: I'm afraid of turning into an atheist eventually...

                                Originally posted by Speculation
                                That one clearly went over your head.

                                But in essence, this is why I can never take atheism seriously.

                                To conclude life came into existence out of thin air by sheer luck, in my eyes, is madness.

                                Whether religion is true or not is something I have no idea about. It's why I registered this forum.

                                Personally I don't ascribe to the 'god of the gaps' mantra many wrongly assume. I find 'intelligent design' in scientific discoveries.

                                Regarding the origins of the universe, there is no clear cut evidence that can be objectively measured and repeated.

                                I can understand why people are atheists - simply because there is a lack of empirical evidence. And if that's what makes them happy, that's fine. Beyond that, it's simply a case of deciding what makes plausible sense to you.
                                Having reread you post, I see no subtle subtext, sophisticated argument or irony to the statement "Atheism is the belief that nothing caused nothing which caused something which formed stars and planets and dinosaurs." which I seem to have missed. Could you explain it for me please?

                                You then go on to completely misrepresent atheism, again. My comment clearly went over your head.

                                Life did not come into existence out of thin air by sheer luck, so you don't have to worry about my sanity. Thanks anyway.

                                By finding "intelligent design in scientific discoveries" you are going beyond even the god of the gaps and inserting god where there is no gap!

                                Regarding the origins of the universe, that is exactly what I have already stated.

                                True, there is a lack of empirical evidence, but the weight of logic, reason and many philosophical considerations are also against him.

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