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  • How do you believe if you simply cannot?

    I have some questions that have been plaging my mind for quite some time.

    I remember the Quran says that Allah guides those who he wills - does that mean there are those who are also destined to disbelieve? I have known an Athiest who has more knowledge than I do in terms of various religion including Islam... yet they cannot believe, no matter what they try. Why is this? Would this person be punished even after trying? I find this idea to be wholly absurd as Allah knows what's in our hearts... and if someone doesn't believe and is still a good person, why would Allah punish them?

    I find that there are areas of Islam that I find very hard to believe but because it does not really affact me, I ignore it... due to the fear of looking into it further I will reject Islam.

    Another question I have is... when you have children, is it fair to bring them up with Islam? Should free will not apply here in a fair manner where you bring them up with various religions to allow them to choose the true path? Surely if Islam is true, a person who studies it will immediately be drawn to it? I wonder if I would have chosen Islam if I was brought up without religion and this question will never be trully answered as I cannot undo the past.

    I needed to unload this here. Apologies if I have offended anyone.

  • #2
    Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

    as for the bit about bringing up a child with islam is their religion.

    I think its fair. First of all, there comes a point in everyones life, where they question their religion, and hence determine for themselves whether it is the truth.. So, even if a child is brought up with islam, it doesnt mean that they will be muslims, because everyone has a mind of their own, and hence they make their own conscious decision.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

      Originally posted by In my Opinion View Post
      I have some questions that have been plaging my mind for quite some time.

      I remember the Quran says that Allah guides those who he wills - does that mean there are those who are also destined to disbelieve? I have known an Athiest who has more knowledge than I do in terms of various religion including Islam... yet they cannot believe, no matter what they try. Why is this? Would this person be punished even after trying? I find this idea to be wholly absurd as Allah knows what's in our hearts... and if someone doesn't believe and is still a good person, why would Allah punish them?

      I find that there are areas of Islam that I find very hard to believe but because it does not really affact me, I ignore it... due to the fear of looking into it further I will reject Islam.

      Another question I have is... when you have children, is it fair to bring them up with Islam? Should free will not apply here in a fair manner where you bring them up with various religions to allow them to choose the true path? Surely if Islam is true, a person who studies it will immediately be drawn to it? I wonder if I would have chosen Islam if I was brought up without religion and this question will never be trully answered as I cannot undo the past.

      I needed to unload this here. Apologies if I have offended anyone.

      :salams ,

      Just reacting on the bolded part, can't blame you for asking that question because I used ask it as well before I became Muslim (just in a little more disrespectfull manner).

      Think of it like this. You know someone and mashallah they are nice to everybody, the help out etc. but they completely reject their parents basically disown them and never have anything good to say about them. So you start to think these gotta be some pretty bad parents.
      But one day you happen to come across a couple, mashallah very nice people, they invite you to their house treat you good, give you anything you ask for. And they are genuinely nice people not an ounce of anything bad in them, they've always treated everyone well been nice to everyone, whether relatives or strangers.
      And now while you're at their house you see a picture, ..... someone in there looks very familiar, even though they have a grouchy look on their face, suddenly you recognize who it is, it's that same person you knew who always talked bad about their parents. And you ask the couple about the person, not mentioning that you know him. And not a single ill word do they say about him, only the best. But they tell you sadly they haven't seen him in a while, he doesn't phone, he doesn't visit, not even an email let alone a letter does he send to them.
      What will you know think of this person? The person is nice to everybody except the ones who raised him, provided for him and nurtured him.
      Do you still think they are a good person ?
      Collection of Arabic Learning material and Islamic Books



      Away for a bit :wavey:

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

        Originally posted by In my Opinion View Post
        I have some questions that have been plaging my mind for quite some time.

        I remember the Quran says that Allah guides those who he wills - does that mean there are those who are also destined to disbelieve? I have known an Athiest who has more knowledge than I do in terms of various religion including Islam... yet they cannot believe, no matter what they try. Why is this? Would this person be punished even after trying? I find this idea to be wholly absurd as Allah knows what's in our hearts... and if someone doesn't believe and is still a good person, why would Allah punish them?

        I find that there are areas of Islam that I find very hard to believe but because it does not really affact me, I ignore it... due to the fear of looking into it further I will reject Islam.

        Another question I have is... when you have children, is it fair to bring them up with Islam? Should free will not apply here in a fair manner where you bring them up with various religions to allow them to choose the true path? Surely if Islam is true, a person who studies it will immediately be drawn to it? I wonder if I would have chosen Islam if I was brought up without religion and this question will never be trully answered as I cannot undo the past.

        I needed to unload this here. Apologies if I have offended anyone.
        Firstly brother, yes Allah guides whom he wills.

        I doubt it works how you are saying though, someone wanting to believe but Allah not allowing them. I only hear of kind of thing when a evil person knows its the truth but waits till he's sure he's going to die before trying to take his shahada. (Like the case of Pharoah). Allah mentions this in the Quran:


        17. Allah accepts only the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and foolishness and repent soon afterwards; it is they to whom Allah will forgive and Allah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise.

        18. And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: "Now I repent;" nor of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful torment.
        (Quran 4:17-18)


        Its a matter of the hearts, Allah controls the heart. The way I understand it is if Allah doesn't will for you to be guided then you won't WANT to be guided. I've never heard of the example you gave, I think that's shaitain trying to cause you to doubt your religion. consider these ayats also:


        22.Undoubtedly, the worst of animals in the sight of Allah are those who are the deaf and dumb who have nonsense.

        23.And if Allah had known any good in them, He would have caused them to listen. And if He had made themhear, even then in the end, they would have turned away, turning their faces
        (Quran 8:22-23)

        As far as bring a child up in Islam, of course its fair. If you leave then to society they will turn out worse then animals. Like bro ibzy said, there comes a point in everyones life where they have to make the decision anyway it doesn't matter.

        At the end of the day its not to us to determine whose guided, its Allahs choice. Allah is more then merciful however, if only you turn to him with sincere regret inshallah he will never turn you down. He has guided some of the worst and made go astray some who we would consider as the best. He has the ultimate wisdom and he is the all knowing, most merciful.

        And don't feel bad about asking, that's why the believers are here. We need to be able to speak about these things, I hope I've been some assistance

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

          Originally posted by Yunus aua View Post
          :salams ,

          Just reacting on the bolded part, can't blame you for asking that question because I used ask it as well before I became Muslim (just in a little more disrespectfull manner).

          Think of it like this. You know someone and mashallah they are nice to everybody, the help out etc. but they completely reject their parents basically disown them and never have anything good to say about them. So you start to think these gotta be some pretty bad parents.
          But one day you happen to come across a couple, mashallah very nice people, they invite you to their house treat you good, give you anything you ask for. And they are genuinely nice people not an ounce of anything bad in them, they've always treated everyone well been nice to everyone, whether relatives or strangers.
          And now while you're at their house you see a picture, ..... someone in there looks very familiar, even though they have a grouchy look on their face, suddenly you recognize who it is, it's that same person you knew who always talked bad about their parents. And you ask the couple about the person, not mentioning that you know him. And not a single ill word do they say about him, only the best. But they tell you sadly they haven't seen him in a while, he doesn't phone, he doesn't visit, not even an email let alone a letter does he send to them.
          What will you know think of this person? The person is nice to everybody except the ones who raised him, provided for him and nurtured him.
          Do you still think they are a good person ?
          That is such a simplistic view and does not even compare to the belief in one god.

          The guy in your story knows who is parents are, he can't reject their existance. He is bad to perfectly nice people... then there is something mentally wrong with him... he is not NORMAL! Any mentally sane person will not delibrately be horrible to nice parents. I know people who can't help being nice to horrible parents! Also, if you are using his parents as an example of God - we have not met him outselves and cannot say we have.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

            Originally posted by Muzdalifah View Post
            Firstly brother, yes Allah guides whom he wills.

            I doubt it works how you are saying though, someone wanting to believe but Allah not allowing them. I only hear of kind of thing when a evil person knows its the truth but waits till he's sure he's going to die before trying to take his shahada. (Like the case of Pharoah). Allah mentions this in the Quran:


            17. Allah accepts only the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and foolishness and repent soon afterwards; it is they to whom Allah will forgive and Allah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise.

            18. And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: "Now I repent;" nor of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful torment.
            (Quran 4:17-18)


            Its a matter of the hearts, Allah controls the heart. The way I understand it is if Allah doesn't will for you to be guided then you won't WANT to be guided. I've never heard of the example you gave, I think that's shaitain trying to cause you to doubt your religion. consider these ayats also:


            22.Undoubtedly, the worst of animals in the sight of Allah are those who are the deaf and dumb who have nonsense.

            23.And if Allah had known any good in them, He would have caused them to listen. And if He had made themhear, even then in the end, they would have turned away, turning their faces
            (Quran 8:22-23)

            As far as bring a child up in Islam, of course its fair. If you leave then to society they will turn out worse then animals. Like bro ibzy said, there comes a point in everyones life where they have to make the decision anyway it doesn't matter.

            At the end of the day its not to us to determine whose guided, its Allahs choice. Allah is more then merciful however, if only you turn to him with sincere regret inshallah he will never turn you down. He has guided some of the worst and made go astray some who we would consider as the best. He has the ultimate wisdom and he is the all knowing, most merciful.

            And don't feel bad about asking, that's why the believers are here. We need to be able to speak about these things, I hope I've been some assistance
            I find that very hard to believe... simply because it means half the world must be evil. In any case, this person is a good human being... I know I am a good human being and yet here I am - believing because I am scared. I am scared that I might be doomed to hell - so I made a choice. I believe in one God - do I believe in the rest? I don't know, but I certainly cannot force myself to. And being a born Muslim, who is better equipped to believe more than I? But it's fear that is driving me and I wonder, should I child be driven by fear to believe? I hate to say it, but the fear feels like a burden. And at times, I wish I didn't exist... because I would not have to think, and also because I don't see the point in living most of the times anyway (with religion or without). You see, I have a pre-disposition to believe because it has been ingrained in me (the fear) from a very young age. Had I had none of this from the very beginning; would I still believe?

            So are you saying Allah chooses who he wants to believe? What does he do to the ones who he does not guide? Why would he not guide them and then punish them? I don't understand this concept. And why as a believer am I constantly questioning everything since I developed more awareness?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

              Originally posted by ibzy View Post
              as for the bit about bringing up a child with islam is their religion.

              I think its fair. First of all, there comes a point in everyones life, where they question their religion, and hence determine for themselves whether it is the truth.. So, even if a child is brought up with islam, it doesnt mean that they will be muslims, because everyone has a mind of their own, and hence they make their own conscious decision.
              It's not the same - because they are not a clean slate. Everthing we learn at early childhood stays with us for life - in our subconcious mind.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

                Originally posted by In my Opinion View Post
                It's not the same - because they are not a clean slate. Everthing we learn at early childhood stays with us for life - in our subconcious mind.
                no, thats not correct, regardless of what happens in our childhood there comes a point in your life where you make a decision of whether you choose islam to be your religion or not.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

                  Originally posted by In my Opinion View Post
                  That is such a simplistic view and does not even compare to the belief in one god.

                  The guy in your story knows who is parents are, he can't reject their existance. He is bad to perfectly nice people... then there is something mentally wrong with him... he is not NORMAL! Any mentally sane person will not delibrately be horrible to nice parents. I know people who can't help being nice to horrible parents! Also, if you are using his parents as an example of God - we have not met him outselves and cannot say we have.
                  God has given to us way more than what our parents have given. And not only is something wrong with him mentally but something is wrong in his heart.
                  And yes we have met God, when Adam (a.s) was created, God stroked his back and all the progeny of Adam (till the last day) came out. Then God asked us if we testify that He is our Lord, and we all said yes.
                  We have forgotten Him, it's not but our own fault. It is mans natural disposition to believe in a Creator, the disbelief in Him is what is unnatural and what came later in life
                  Collection of Arabic Learning material and Islamic Books



                  Away for a bit :wavey:

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

                    Originally posted by In my Opinion View Post
                    I find that very hard to believe... simply because it means half the world must be evil. In any case, this person is a good human being... I know I am a good human being and yet here I am - believing because I am scared. I am scared that I might be doomed to hell - so I made a choice. I believe in one God - do I believe in the rest? I don't know, but I certainly cannot force myself to. And being a born Muslim, who is better equipped to believe more than I? But it's fear that is driving me and I wonder, should I child be driven by fear to believe? I hate to say it, but the fear feels like a burden. And at times, I wish I didn't exist... because I would not have to think, and also because I don't see the point in living most of the times anyway (with religion or without). You see, I have a pre-disposition to believe because it has been ingrained in me (the fear) from a very young age. Had I had none of this from the very beginning; would I still believe?

                    So are you saying Allah chooses who he wants to believe? What does he do to the ones who he does not guide? Why would he not guide them and then punish them? I don't understand this concept. And why as a believer am I constantly questioning everything since I developed more awareness?
                    Brother, who are we to decide whose a "good" human being and whose not? We don't possess that wisdom or authority.

                    What is the worst crime in the eyes of Allah? The only one he doesn't forgive?

                    You got it right, its shirk or making partners and rivals for Allah. Denying his oneness and giving his credit to others. So yes, half the world is evil, maybe even more. Subhannullah, we can't even handle when our wife or children are ungrateful to us or when they deny what we do for them. Shirk is much greater then that, it IS the ultimate evil.

                    And yes, fear is what drives the human being period. Its fear that keeps people from running every red light or driving above the speed limit. Fear keeps the people from killing every person who ticks them off. Fear is what keeps our women safe when they're out alone. Fear keeps the fabric of society together because without fear, there will be CHAOS.

                    This fear is a fear of getting a ticket or a fear of going to jail. Its the same thing, in that case you should be an anarchist and reject all forms of civilization because you "are tired of being driven by fear." Even in an anarchy fear will still keep certain things from going down. People only respect fear.

                    Allah gives everyone a chance to believe but we have to understand everything is bound by Qadr or predestination. Also Allah created some people specifically for the fire. Without darkness we wouldn't appreciate light, without evil we wouldn't appreciate good.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

                      As for bringing ur child up on Islam.

                      Well i don't know, how someone could truly believe ISLAM is the TRUTH, and then lie to his child? If u believe islam is the truth, and that believers will go to heaven and disbelievers will go to hell, but u dont tell ur child this. U are lying to him, and ur not protecting him from the Hellfire as it says in Qur'an to protect your family from the hellfire. If u teach him anything other than islam, u would be lying to him. So why not just tell him the truth? Also as muslims we're meant to give dawah (invite others to Islam), WHY WOULD YOU NOT GIVE DAWAH TO OWN CHILD?

                      As for freewill and predestination. Why don't people get this through their heads? ONLY ALLAH KNOWS. you cannot say 'I try but i cannot believe because allah has destined for me to disbelieve'. How do you know he destined for u to disbelieve? did you read the book of decrees? where you there when allah wrote it down? than how do u know? your job is to keep trying, Allah is just and merciful, he will help you. Only Allah knows the Unseen so we can never say 'this person is destined to disbelieve''. Someone can believe on their deathbed.

                      As for why Allah will punish a good person for disbelieving?

                      I have a question for you:

                      If u gave ur child money, shelter, clothing, education, best luxuries, but despite all this, he denies all ur favors and says 'ur dead to me', would u care how good of a person he is to others? When ur the one who gave him everything that made him 'good'? This happens quite a lot nowdays. People are such 'celebrities' and 'role models', but when it comes to their own parents, they barely remember to thank them. Also don't tell me 'But i can see my parents', you can see Allah's favors too, you just don't want to recognize them.
                      Last edited by abc123d; 29-08-13, 01:48 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

                        @ The OP ("in my Opinion"), I sincerely advise you to stop asking questions and go and learn islam from a reputable sholar. Its happening in this thread and I can only assume it will get worse but if you continue with the stance you have taken and continue to ask questions not accepting "Allah is all knowing and wise and even if we cannot understand why some things are the way they are we simply listen and obey" as an answer is going to get you into all kinds of trouble.

                        Some souls are created and destined for hell, that is simply how it is. Why hope and pray that we are not one of the wretched. those destined for hell will commit the acts in this world that make them deserve to go there. they have free-will and those who think of Allah ta'ala as existing within created things like time won't be able to understand but the decisions those people will make that will destine them to hell are already known by Allah and were known when they were created. It's difficult to explain but a loose example would be: there is a race, the winner of the race is already known, so you put that person's name on the medal. The racers then run the race and the one you have the medal for wins, you then give him the medal. He still had to run and win the race but his reward was already there waiting for him. Likewise is the case of those going to either of the destinations in Akhirah.

                        No kaffir will aid Nabi(SAW) more and be a "nicer person" than Abu Mutalib, and even he will not attain Jannah as a reward for his actions as he died without the Kalimah. That's just how it is.
                        www.treasureofthescholars.wordpress.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

                          Originally posted by abc123d View Post
                          As for bringing ur child up on Islam.

                          Well i don't know, how someone could truly believe ISLAM is the TRUTH, and then lie to his child? If u believe islam is the truth, and that believers will go to heaven and disbelievers will go to hell, but u dont tell ur child this. U are lying to him, and ur not protecting him from the Hellfire as it says in Qur'an to protect your family from the hellfire. If u teach him anything other than islam, u would be lying to him. So why not just tell him the truth? Also as muslims we're meant to give dawah (invite others to Islam), WHY WOULD YOU NOT GIVE DAWAH TO OWN CHILD?
                          You'd need to have no conviction in hell being an actual place to even entertain allowing your child to go there, which is what we'd be doing if we let them possibly commit Kufr/Shirk. We also have the example of Nabi(SAW) and the Sahabah(RA) in how they taught their children. we are instructed to physically reprimand our children if they aren't regular in Salah by the age of 10, and Salah although Fard is second in comparison to eeman.

                          As for freewill and predestination. Why don't people get this through their heads? ONLY ALLAH KNOWS. you cannot say 'I try but i cannot believe because allah has destined for me to disbelieve'. How do you know he destined for u to disbelieve? did you read the book of decrees? where you there when allah wrote it down? than how do u know? your job is to keep trying, Allah is just and merciful, he will help you. Only Allah knows the Unseen so we can never say 'this person is destined to disbelieve''. Someone can believe on their deathbed.
                          Faith lies between hope and fear, May Allah ta'ala not make us amongst the wretched.

                          As for why Allah will punish a good person for disbelieving?
                          This question requires us to be the ones who set the criteria of "good", we are not. Allah ta'ala sets the crieterion of things and as per the Quran and Hadith the crieteria to be considered "good" is Islam. Without Islam no one is "good", until and unless they embrace it.

                          I have a question for you:

                          If u gave ur child money, shelter, clothing, education, best luxuries, but despite all this, he denies all ur favors and says 'ur dead to me', would u care how good of a person he is to others? When ur the one who gave him everything that made him 'good'? This happens quite a lot nowdays. People are such 'celebrities' and 'role models', but when it comes to their own parents, they barely remember to thank them. Also don't tell me 'But i can see my parents', you can see Allah's favors too, you just don't want to recognize them.
                          Again for such an explanation to be necesarry a person has to have no conviction in Allah ta'ala being our Rabb, creator and Sustainer. Worse still to recognise Allah, yet think that not worshipping him is acceptable shows a very low condition of eeman and virtually no understanding of Islam. Abu Bakr(RA) went to war with people if they even failed to produce Zakah in the correct manner. Let alone what Sahabah(RA) would have done if someone refuted the worshipping Allah ta'ala all together.

                          We can only imagine the response of someone like Umar(RA) should he have been present when a Muslim spoke words like "We doesn't my Mushrik friend attain Jannah, he is a good person, so what if he rejects Allah, nabi(SAW) and Islam...".
                          www.treasureofthescholars.wordpress.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

                            One has to look at things from a macro-perspective.

                            Societies and people today ail from all sorts of illnesses, and really the world today is in pretty bad shape. There is slaughter on a large scale in wars, and then on a lesser scale even you living in the UK or US or wherever, there is crime, immorality, anger, etc.

                            Why? Because of the systems that are in place that do not do much to change this, but rather bring it about. Governments that cause wars, governments that oppress people in subtle or blatant ways, causing these outcomes that are produced due to poverty and so on. But the people themselves can't fight this because many of them themselves are not against doing these things, when it suits them. What forbids them?

                            So all this said, why are those systems in place? Because people allowed them to be. And so many are for them and believe in them, even amidst all of this. And even when Islamic systems were in place, whatever imperfection that was present in them (though they were always the best to people), it was due to the evils of their own people.

                            So out there are those who are against all of this and are for Islam as the best system and way of life. Among them are people who are close to what is correct, and among them are those who are far. When Allah judges them, the closer ones would be more rewarded than the farther ones, and Allah has given us all we need to come close, it's just that some do not want to.

                            Everyone else who never supported this truth, and who never made an effort to bring it about and cause the world to straighten out, they share in the blame for the unfortunate situation we have before us. This is why even among Muslims, all those who were far from what is correct, they too share in that blame in the measure they were far. But Allah (swt) will still give them the good He promised them for what little they did of good deeds believing in Him. But those who never believed in Him in the first place, how could they strive for Islam? How could they want to? They support other things, and if they ever helped, it was by chance, or temporarily as a part of a greater plot. Some of them do good in their lives, but Allah then rewards them with good here on Earth, so they all get their right in the end anyway, it's not like they are being wronged.

                            But ultimately, all those who never cared for true Islam, they share the blame in the evil brought about in its absence, even if they appear to you to be nice. And again, I stress true Islam, because both now and throughout history, there has never been a perfectly just Islamic government after the four Khulafaa', but that will not stop those struggling for that sake anyway. Even in the times where Islam was powerful and there was less oppression than there was today in their lands, there remained a struggle for sincere Muslims then who spoke up against those systems and called the people (who again are ultimately represented by their leader) to correct Islam, so that perhaps their overall leadership and situation would be as correct as possible.

                            And that is the matter as I see it. The gist of it is, not caring, and not putting an effort to figure things out, that makes a person blameworthy. But to those that legitimately couldn't, they will not be wronged in the end, for Allah is Just and He will test them. Some will pass, and they will enter heaven even if they lived their entire lives ignorant of Islam.
                            والمبادرة إلى التكفير إنما تغلب على طباع من يغلب عليهم الجهل - ابن تيمية رحمه الله - بغية المرتاد

                            "Rushing towards takfir is an attitude which is dominant over those who are defeated by ignorance." - Ibn Taymiyyah Rahimahullah [Bughyatul Murtaad, page 354]

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                            • #15
                              Re: How do you believe if you simply cannot?

                              Originally posted by Sandman View Post
                              You'd need to have no conviction in hell being an actual place to even entertain allowing your child to go there, which is what we'd be doing if we let them possibly commit Kufr/Shirk. We also have the example of Nabi(SAW) and the Sahabah(RA) in how they taught their children. we are instructed to physically reprimand our children if they aren't regular in Salah by the age of 10, and Salah although Fard is second in comparison to eeman.



                              Faith lies between hope and fear, May Allah ta'ala not make us amongst the wretched.



                              This question requires us to be the ones who set the criteria of "good", we are not. Allah ta'ala sets the crieterion of things and as per the Quran and Hadith the crieteria to be considered "good" is Islam. Without Islam no one is "good", until and unless they embrace it.



                              Again for such an explanation to be necesarry a person has to have no conviction in Allah ta'ala being our Rabb, creator and Sustainer. Worse still to recognise Allah, yet think that not worshipping him is acceptable shows a very low condition of eeman and virtually no understanding of Islam. Abu Bakr(RA) went to war with people if they even failed to produce Zakah in the correct manner. Let alone what Sahabah(RA) would have done if someone refuted the worshipping Allah ta'ala all together.

                              We can only imagine the response of someone like Umar(RA) should he have been present when a Muslim spoke words like "We doesn't my Mushrik friend attain Jannah, he is a good person, so what if he rejects Allah, nabi(SAW) and Islam...".
                              I agree with everything you said, i think you might have misunderstood my post, i was trying to show the OP why he's wrong through his own points.

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