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  • bismillah ar rahman ir rahim,



    brother abu mubarak its the blessed month of ramadan dont let the jahillyah of theri responses of mariam and hassan bother you, insha allah they will get clearer understanding of the deen, at least alhumdilah they are muslim, i for one appreciate the good work you do in this forum and of upholding quran and sunnah even if other muslims who are too busy followin their nafs do not.


    but gettin to the issue of wife beating, first of all english translation is not to go by, quote from original text,arabic, then understand when the ayah was revealed[makkan period/medina] and then 3rdly understand the reality surronding it, known as fiqh al waaqi . islam is applicable for all times and realities.
    dont we have the best example in the messnger muhammad[saw]? was not stoning the adulterer done during his belssed time?


    and those chocolate muslims who think they have a case regarding the hadrat umar issue lack understanding. i have given daleel in my previous response and was hoping hassan would reply . brother abu will he hassan be re-instated at all? not that im bothered.
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    • kaleem if it was up to me, hassan can go take his theory of evolution of islam somewhere else

      i love the brother, he is one of the nicest people on ummah

      but we cannot have muslims advocating abandoning islam, just because they dont like this or that

      and once you start tampering with clear quranic ayats, you are on the path to destroy islam

      and of course we know that islam will never be destroyed, nor will the quran

      which even makes the case of banning him more important, just as we would ban irshad manji or any other heretical nonsense on this board, we cannot let our feelings about hassan allow him to use this forum as a bullypit to advocate heresy in islam

      to advocate altering the quran (more precisely, altering muslims applying the quran) is haram in every sort
      .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
      نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
      دولة الإسلامية باقية





      Comment


      • Answered by Sidi Faraz Rabbani



        Why does the Qur'an give husbands the right to beat their wives? This sounds like pure savagery. Are women to be treated as animals? This has always distressed me.




        Walaikum assalam wa rahmatullah,



        The Quran does not give any permission to beat women. Rather, it is established from the sunna of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) that a woman may seek to terminate her marriage on account of physical abuse.



        To understand the Quranic verses regarding hitting, its limits, and context, please refer to the answers related to this found on in our site's archives.



        It is important, also, to understand what the Quran is: it is not the speech of a human in which temporal moral guidance is laid out for humans. Rather, it is the very Word of Allah, the Creator of all things. Its guidance is not temporal nor bounded by time: it is Allahs showing His creation the paths to all true good in this life all good and ultimate felicity in the Next.



        And Allah alone gives success.



        Wassalam.



        Faraz Rabbani
        www.marifah.info

        Wahhabis Refuted
        Ash'aris

        Comment


        • there is a hadith that related that umar ibn alkhattab once was speaking to a man, and the man was told that the prophet had said this and that about an issue

          the man continued with his opinion

          umar threatened to take that man's head if he uttered another word, and ended the conversation with "after i tell you that the messenger of Allah has said this and that about this thing, you still have a differing opinion?"

          there are other hadiths related to how we are to obey the messenger of Allah and Allah's book

          these are not light matters, and yes today we have this "freedom of opinion" where people feel their opinions matter in terms of islam

          YOUR OPINION MEANS NOTHING

          the name of this religion is submission, to Allah and His Messenger

          the items that hassan has issue with are clear ayaat and ahaadith, not just where do you hold your hands in salat, but he is actually opposing ayaat of quran

          and the muslims wonder what to do?

          wallahi, this matter is clear
          .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
          نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
          دولة الإسلامية باقية





          Comment


          • Answered by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari

            In relation to the above question, is it permissible for lets say a wife's brother to use physical force against an oppressive and abusive husband?




            In the Name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

            Marriage is a means of drawing closer to Allah. It is a means to acquire chastity and god-fearing (taqwa). It is also a means of gaining peace, tranquillity, solace and comfort for each of the spouses, and the foundation of a successful society.

            Allah Most High says:

            And among his signs is this, that He created for you partners from among your selves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He put love and mercy between you. [Quran, al-Rum: 21]

            The Shariah has laid down certain rights and duties upon the husband and wife. The husband has been ordered to support the wife financially and take care of her material, spiritual and physical needs, and to treat her in a proper manner. The wife has been ordered to obey her husband in everything permissible related to their marriage, and to be a means of peace and relieve him of the pressures of his day to day life. Both have been commanded by the Quran to deal with each other with excellence and in the best of ways (bil ma`ruf).

            The husband has no right to be abusive or to oppress the wife (and also visa-versa). This is a tremendous sin, and a form of oppression, which the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) warned against, saying, Oppression is darknesses on the Day of Judgment. [Muslim]

            In a hadith reported by Imam al-Bukhari, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

            It surely very wrong that one of you beats up his wife like she is a slave and then goes and fulfils his needs in the night [Sahih al-Bukhari, 5204]

            Abusive Wife?

            At times, the opposite is true, and the wife is violent and abusive towards the husband.

            This is also a great sin. She has been made responsible by Allah Most High to obey the husband, out of tremendous wisdom whose benefit is manifest in the personal, interpersonal, and social levels. The Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) mention that if the husband calls her for to bed whilst she is cooking, she must stop and come to him. [Sunan al-Tirmidhi] She must not keep optional fasts nor emerge out of the house without his permission, or mutual understanding. If this is not allowed, then you can imagine what the sin will be for treating the husband inappropriately

            Is using her brother to beat up her husband an alternative?

            In the light of the above, it becomes clear that it is absolutely unlawful for the wife to get her brother to use physical force against her husband even if the husband is oppressive. Islam prohibits all kinds of violence and aggression, especially when it is between the husband and the wife.

            What is the solution, then?

            The solution when the husband is oppressive is not in asking your brother to beat him up, rather to revert to other methods which includes advising him with wisdom and beautiful preaching. If you cant deal with the issue yourself then the mediation of other of his family members may be more productive. If all avenues fail, then you can also ask for annulment of your marriage according to the principles outlined in the books of Fiqh, in consultation with a reliable scholar.

            And Allah knows best

            Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari
            www.marifah.info

            Wahhabis Refuted
            Ash'aris

            Comment


            • jazak allah khair for your response, i too love brother hassan and even mariam simply becuase he/she is muslim but i distance myself from his/her views- suffice leave it that as he/she is not present and we do not want our deeds eaten by backbiting.

              but i agree with you completely , we need to draw the line somwhere and tampering with quranic ayahs is not allowed, and should not be tolerated, but i beleive in letting a muslim who is not sure or has the excuse of ignorance that regardless what he ask we answer insha allh even regarding the neglect of quranic ayahs.ie, not being implemented today times.


              i recommend you a discussion board akhi if your not a member already where knowledge is overlfowing and insh aallah you will benefit from it in this blessed month. i will pm you it insh aallah.
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              • if a man beats his wife unmercifully, he deserves a beatdown

                after that, we can talk to him nicely
                .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                دولة الإسلامية باقية





                Comment


                • how about a man who beats his wife mercifully?
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                  • he gets a merciful naseeha
                    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                    دولة الإسلامية باقية





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                    • from whom?
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                      • there are quite a few "all muslim" forums and many of them are nice


                        my only issue with them is that they usually require you to adhere to a "party line"

                        here, we are much more open, but in our openess, we get muslims who freely espouse themselves not covering, we have had muslims speak of how they do drugs, we have muslims who want to change quran, we have muslims who love the kuffar

                        maybe there is no balance, and its better to adhere to a party line

                        Allah knows best

                        Originally posted by kaleem26
                        jazak allah khair for your response, i too love brother hassan and even mariam simply becuase he/she is muslim but i distance myself from his/her views- suffice leave it that as he/she is not present and we do not want our deeds eaten by backbiting.

                        but i agree with you completely , we need to draw the line somwhere and tampering with quranic ayahs is not allowed, and should not be tolerated, but i beleive in letting a muslim who is not sure or has the excuse of ignorance that regardless what he ask we answer insha allh even regarding the neglect of quranic ayahs.ie, not being implemented today times.


                        i recommend you a discussion board akhi if your not a member already where knowledge is overlfowing and insh aallah you will benefit from it in this blessed month. i will pm you it insh aallah.
                        .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                        نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                        دولة الإسلامية باقية





                        Comment


                        • the site i gave you to join requires no party line except the people adhere to quraan and sunnah and if you are not sure then ask questions. and if you then persist in your jahillyah then the red button would put a stop to all that insha- alalh;)


                          i was at a talk by brother abdul rahim greene , he said a good thing- he said ramadan is about acquring taqwa. if you enter a stall with $10 dollars and leave the stall with $10 dollars-what did you gain? absolute nothing. likewise with ramadan , if you eneter with a certain amount of taqwa and leave ramadan with the same amount of taqwa you had when entering-what benefit did you attain from ramadan?absolute nothing. so do not let this ramadan be a waste, rather try to increase on the good deeds,such as sunnah prayers, or miswaak, or praying fajr at the mosque, every little deed does not go un-noticed.


                          may allah swt make us all successful in this life and the next,amin.
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                          • Still waiting....

                            Originally posted by mariam
                            I didn't realize that calling for Ijtihad was a bannable offense here at Ummah.com.

                            Could one of the admins please point out where in the rules that is stated?
                            And as was stated here:

                            Originally posted by owl mirror
                            So, I wish to state plainly, here and now that if your voice is silenced, my voice should also go silent, either through banishment or through my own free will.

                            PEACE !
                            So I'll be back later tonight or early tomorrow to see if any admin can show the rule at Ummah.com where a member can be banned for calling for Ijtihad.

                            If not, then the latest abuse of the banning button by admin should be reversed, and perhaps the admins could concentrate on banning members who insult Islam and call Islamic women "fundamentalist brood mares".
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                            • im assumin this is where brother hassan got his issue regarding the rule of itjihad?can anyone clarify? anyhow im checkin up on it and insha allah will post further replies.

                              --------------------------------------------------------
                              http://www.ummah.org.uk/what-is-islam/law/ijtihad.htm


                              The ideology of Islam consists of two key aspects: a set of beliefs i.e. the creed, and a system of rules regulating man's actions emanating from the creed. And Quran is the primary source for both of them.

                              Quran is definite i.e. nothing has been added or deleted from it since it was revealed but this does not necessarily means that the meaning of the text is definite. If there is only one possible understanding of the text then the meaning is considered definite and the sharaih (corpus juries of Islam) derived from the text is an assured rule. On the other hand, if the meaning of the text is open to more than one interpretation, the rule is derived from the text through Ijtihad - the process of making judgment based on Quran, Sunnah i.e. actions of the Prophet and his words of commandment, and qiyas i.e. divine analogy.

                              Examples of the use of Ijtihad amongst the sahabah - companions of the Prophet (saw), are numerous. Following are some of the examples:


                              Quran says: "As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands", but during the year of famine - which resembled the case of plight, Caliph Umar suspended the penalty for theft in view of the verse "Whosoever is forced to transgress the laws without violating the laws, then there is no sin against him"

                              During the opening of Syria and Iraq, the sahabah disagreed over what should be done with the land they had opened. Some considered that the land should be divided into fifths as Quran prescribed. They were of the opinion that the four fifths of the land should be divided among the soldiers and the remaining one fifth should be distributed to those whom Allah has commanded in the Quran "Then truly to Allah belongs one fifth and to the Messenger, the Messenger's family, the orphans, the poor and needy and the wayfarer". Eventually, it was decided that the land should remain in the hands of the owners but under the authority of the Baytul Mal (treasury for the purpose of providing social security benefits) where every Muslim, including those identified in the verse, could benefit from it.

                              Another example concerns the time of waiting (iddah - the period after which a woman can marry - a safeguard for ascertaining the correct fatherhood of a child) for the pregnant wife who becomes widowed. In view of the verse "For those who carry life in their wombs, their period is until they deliver their burden", there was an opinion that when a man dies and leaves a pregnant wife, her time of waiting expires at the birth of the child. While in view of the verse "If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days" there was another opinion that the time of waiting expires either when she gives birth or after 4 months 10 days, whichever is the longest duration. In other words, if the woman gives birth 8 weeks after her husband's death, she still has to wait the remaining 2 months and 10 days. It was resolved that each of the verses was interdependent and, were connected ingeneral to the other. The second verse in linked to the first which gives the understanding that the women whose husband has died, is under iddah for four months and ten days if she is free from pregnancy. However if she is pregnant, her iddah expires when she has given birth.


                              Ijtihad has been a long established Islamic practice to find answers to new situations and differing circumstances. Sahabah were fortunate to be trained in Ijtihad by Prophet (saw) and by the events of that time. But after that it became more and more crucial and most practical to consider not only Quran and sunnah in Ijtihad but also their derivatives i.e. Ijma -as- sahaba (consensus of companions) and qiyas through hadiths, Islamic history and sharaih.

                              Muslims have had different opinions since the time of the Messenger of Allah but it should not be seen as a weakness and source of disunity. The weakness and disunity is not the difference of opinions but rather in the way in which such differences are viewed. As long as an opinion is based on an Islamic evidence, and that opinion does not contradict an assured rule, that opinion should be respected as an Islamic opinion.
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                              • So the Quran says:
                                [4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

                                Hassan says:
                                I believe it is wrong to lay a finger on your wife under ANY circumstances.

                                This part of the Qur'an - that allows a man to hit his wife - was for another time and another age, when people behaved and reacted differently. It is simply unacceptable in todays world!

                                Fundie says:
                                So let me state very clearly that I believe issues such as Hitting ones wife, Slavery, stoning and Death sentence for someone who excersise his freedom to choose whatever religion he believes were not meant to be applied at all times in all places - and that they were specific to the conditions and circumstances of the time.

                                Clearly Fundie is saying the same thing as Hassan. So I fully expect Fundie to be banned posthaste.

                                But more to the point, you both are interpreting. Because clearly the text of the Koran, which is valid over all other sources be they Sunna or Hadith or your own opinions could not be any clearer. I read nothing in that verse about 'adapt this to your own time and circumstance.' Care to explain?

                                And as for language interpretation, that isn't a valid point. Unless the only language you speak is Arabic, your interpreting. Simply learning Arabic makes no difference, because if your English speaking, your still going to be translating internally. But it is clearly irrelevant in this case, as it's spelled out as plain as day. I can beat my wife! And she only has to be rebellious! Of course that isn't defined so I suppose it's left up to me to define it. My food was overcooked? Rebellious! My wife doesn't want to have sex? Rebellious! Where is my steel pip... umm toothbrush!( Such a beautiful woman...such a pity)
                                Last edited by BobCleotisSmith; 21-10-04, 03:19 AM.
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