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  • sajid
    replied
    ok here keep it cool plz...

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  • jamila
    replied
    I take your point, mariam. You know him personally. I even disagreed with AbuM about banning him in the 'old' days precisely because he seemed to be arguing from the view-point that I referred to in my post 'explaining' his banning. That is, making ijtihad within the confines of the witnesses' and the qur'anic traditions and within the the confines of the when and how (and why) of rulings.

    But, despite the overt statement that he is not trying to change the Qur'an (he would have difficulty doing that, since Allah preserves it), he openly said he wants what is sanctioned in it (namely slavery and the use of beating to correct the behaviour of women as a last resort) to be revoked. That is ABROGATED. In effect, he might as well be saying the religion WAS NOT COMPLETED as it is witnessed to be completed in both the Qur'an and the Sunnah, and that Alllah made an error on leaving both these issues 'unresolved' within his book and unresolved within the sunnah.

    As for stoning - that is a matter of deep study of the sunnah, since stoning is not found in the Qur'an except when done by the angels on Sodom and Gamorah. That is subject to debate, and good luck to him. I wouldn't like to express my own opinion, but where men are concerned and what they have decided on the issue, they are not perfect as Allah is perfect.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Ali_Khan
    what?
    May be a small slap ,like only to touch her arm, somethnig like that.

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  • outlandish
    replied
    Moderators acting as fair as usual
    The person clearly said he wasnt referring to changing the Quran,than how can that be taken as a decision to ban him?
    From my experience on ummah,and what I have seen of the ppl here,all those acting so adhering to the quran and sunnah, lecturing others about this and that. I seen how much they really do adhere to it. Before charging someone with something,atleast ask that person if its true or not,before taking such radical steps. Exactly the same way as done to me...Bro Hassan is the only one I always seen act so nice and good to other people. NO wonder so many of the old posters have left this place...
    Last edited by outlandish; 21-10-04, 08:08 AM.

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  • ZawjatuRaafi
    replied
    mashaa allah sister May allah grant you good in this life and the hereafter. Ameen!

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  • Mary Carol
    replied
    Originally posted by zawjaturaafi
    My second thing is to remind you that not many here actually even knows who the other person they are speaking to is. We are all going off of what a persons words are, we have no idea if this person has ever made a salat a day in their life, we have no idea if they are honest about their identity, nothing. Third instead of getting so worked up about someone being gone, unjustly or whatever the reason is make duaa that Allah bless him/her with better, and remember that as small as it may seem even that is qadr Allah....
    Haven't you met members from Ummah.com?

    I have.

    Peace is one of the most honest, most devout, I know.

    I have met both him and his family.

    So you may have no idea...but I do.

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  • ZawjatuRaafi
    replied
    subhanaa Allah....

    Mariam you have been Muslim for how long now? I know you are pretty new to the deen. So my question to you is what do you think makes a good Muslim (not a question you have to reply to me on but maybe write it in a book and go back to it a few years from now and see where your thinking is then from now)? My second thing is to remind you that not many here actually even knows who the other person they are speaking to is. We are all going off of what a persons words are, we have no idea if this person has ever made a salat a day in their life, we have no idea if they are honest about their identity, nothing. Third instead of getting so worked up about someone being gone, unjustly or whatever the reason is make duaa that Allah bless him/her with better, and remember that as small as it may seem even that is qadr Allah....

    I would hate to see you go ukhti off of a decision that you disagree with, so maybe inshaa Allah just a little cool down time is what is needed for all.

    Admin (maybe upon banning a member the thread should always be closed to avoid so much fitnah and going on about the person who is no longer there to defend himself/herself would be better, and a rule made that it not be taken up in such manners as new threads of *bring back xxxxx*but rather it be taken up in PM to whatever admin there are...) All of this really does take away from the good that can be had here.

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  • Mary Carol
    replied
    Originally posted by jamila
    Now, if he called for ijtihad on the interpretation of when and how the acts he dislikes so much are halal .... i.e. the details which can only be found in the traditional (sunnah) explanations .... perhaps such a radical step as banning a man who calls for the abandonment of the Book would not have been taken.
    He did call for Ijtihad:

    Peace:

    Yes you make a good point. There must be some acceptable framework and basis for re-interpretation - it cannot be simply up to the whim of any Tom, Dick or Harry.

    I have suggested before that the consensus of the scholars could be that basis and the framework could be a close exammination of the Qur'an and Sunnah and use of "Ijtihad" - using the very tools God gave us - "Aql" (Reasoning/intelligence) and "Fitrah" (nature/conscience).

    If the scholars were to once again apply ijtihad and use sound reasoning and understanding of the conditions and situation then as compared to the conditions and situation now - I feel confident they could come to an agreement on what re-interpretations are necessary.

    But unfortuantely - at the moment - few scholars are willing to take such bold steps.

    But I am hopeful that this will happen eventually


    Originally posted by jamila
    Mariam, think before you openly support some-one as extreme in his opinions as Hassan.
    lol

    I openly support his right to call for Ijtihad.

    Since when is calling for Ijtihad extreme?

    What is extreme is stifling the debate.

    An extremity that is beginning to be all too familiar here at Ummah.com.

    If a good Muslim, an intelligent Muslim, a devout Muslim like Peace does not belong here, then neither do I.

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  • Ali_Khan
    replied
    Originally posted by marjan
    how about a man who beats his wife mercifully?
    what?

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  • ZawjatuRaafi
    replied
    as salaamu alaikum

    Ya Know I have been reading through this whole thread in just utter disbelief at the direction it has went. Subhanaa Allah people what has happened to your fasting. Is this really the attitudes we should be taking with one another... I see so much hostility from so many people subhanaa Allah... May Allah guide us all Ameen!!!

    In looking through this thread, it starts off with a scenario of a couple and their problems. Common problems, where sadly the end result was that this woman died (of other causes from what I gathered) and this poor child has been left off to be raised away from the beautiful deen she was born into subhanaa Allah may Allah guide her aright Ameen...

    Now with all that it has turned into bannings, ijtihad, Proper hijaab I mean really everyone is it always that when posting a post it must turn into controversy?

    As to how things have been dealt with on the thread with regards to its members. I dont want to go far into Brother Hassans character, but I will say that if the reasons for banning (and i am sure inshaa Allah the niyaat behind it was correct) are because of statements of making that which is permissable impermissable and vice versa, this is not something that is a new issue. This has been addressed as long as I have been on this forum. It has been an issue that has been tolerated for quite some time. But this is simply something that WE CANNOT DO!!! You cannot say I enjoin that which is good and forbid that which is evil (or not good) and sit by and watch and partake in such statements and say you base your life on this statement. So if the ban is there and I personally see just cause for it not that my opinion matters to most of you here, the ban is there you keep moving. Inshaa Allah maybe the brother will see his err and correct his thinking because clearly it is of misguidance to make statements of such.

    I for one am a woman, and a muslimah al hamdulillah, and in being that I have no problem with the ayat that is referred to. See because NO wife in my opinion should ever allow things to go to that degree... A Muslim wife fears Allah, and knows that with the pleasure of her husband, by her hand, she has gained the pleasure of Allah. This is the ultimate goal in Islam. Allahs pleasure! If my husband comes to me with what he is seeing in my behavior and I dont rectify my ways, causing it to go to further steps of him say leaving my bed. Well I know I need to check myself, cause I know the steps that follow according to Quran and Sunnah. So if I am choosing to rebel in such a manner and it has to come to that level then maybe it will bring some humility to the situation. Now with that said I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT BEATING A WOMAN DOWN!!! NOR AM I TALKING ABOUT BEATING HER CAUSE SHE DIDNT COOK THE CHICKEN RIGHT 3 TIMES IN A ROW. I am talking about issues that matter, she is consistently stealing from the household, she is not covering, she is doing something that is truly taking her from the folds of Islam, and this form of rebellion can damage not only her but the family as a whole. And I am not saying that this is what was meant when the ayat was sent down. But I think if we as Muslims use hikmah in our affairs we will find that there is appropriate ways of dealing with things, and these measures shouldnt have to come this far. But sadly we as women can tick and do some stuff that is just very emotionally off base, we can take things too far, and men can often not have the patience or tolerance we may have expected them to have. Either way BEATING YOUR WIFE DOWN is a very big difference then what I understand the ayat to mean...

    But as a non muslim or even a new muslim it can be very difficult to see beyond just the words in your english KORAN or Qur'an. This was one of the first issues I had to tackle in coming to Islam, I needed to understand this and al hamdulillah I have come to terms with it. We as people have to read between the lines from time to time everything is not as black and white as we want to make it. There is much hikmah in this but it is how you choose to perceive it...

    As far as speaking on that which you are not truly understanding, Yes I will agree it is one thing to voice an opinion, I think that what the issue seems to be just from observation, is that when you really arent certain and you do voice your opinion and someone tells you this thinking is incorrect and then takes it further and provides daleel to prove this thinking is incorrect, and you continue to argue your point. Your point becomes mute, people stop hearing it as being just someone who didnt know and made a mistake and it turns into someone who refuses to recognize that someone with more knowledge even in just that one thing is correct and maybe it is best to stop arguing it and try to learn from it. This is humility mashaa Allah. May Allah provide us all with it, AMEEN! We all from the newest in deen to the oldest in deen need to realize there is SO much to learn in Islam and no matter how much we study we will never understand Islam in the fullest of its capacities and therefore we have to stop and learn from one another and not always feel we have so much to say. And with that said I will get off my soapbox inshaa Allah it just really saddens me to see all this taking place. When there really is so much so very much more important that could be taking place right now subhanaa Allah...

    Sorry for the length but HEY you all know me lol... May Allah and you all forgive me for anything I may have said that was offensive, and if I said anything that was incorrect may Allah and you all forgive me, may Allah rectify all our affairs, and shortcomings and grant us the ability to walk on the siratul Mustaqim Ameen...

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  • Owl Mirror
    replied
    .
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    Originally posted by jamila
    .... i.e. the details which can only be found in the traditional (sunnah) explanations .....


    So, common sense, common decency and common courtesy are not allowed in any life situation, if it goes against a traditional society edict from 1400 years ago ?
    Did not Allah give each human being a mind with which to think, and a voice with which to voice their opinions and thoughts ?
    I believe, it is erroneous to believe that one sex is above the other.
    Man and Woman were created as partners, to enjoy life together and raise children
    who will respect the rights of others, regardless of gender. I M H O


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  • Chained_Water
    replied
    I can understand why he has been banned and why the mods think he should be, because it has been expressed more clearly now.

    So let me state very clearly that I believe issues such as Hitting ones wife, Slavery, stoning and Death sentence for someone who excersise his freedom to choose whatever religion he believes were not meant to be applied at all times in all places - and that they were specific to the conditions and circumstances of the time.

    I don't believe in changing Qur'an - but I do believe our scholars should do what Umar did, which is trying to understand the underlying wisdom of the Qur'an in dealing with events in ways that were appropriate at the time and using Ijtihad to keep to the true 'spirit' of the Qur'an.

    If you think I am doing wrong by saying this then ban me!
    It just looks very dodgy to quote that and say "fine with me", esp when in that post hassan says he doesn't believe in changing the Quran and uses the actions of Hazrat Umar(ra) to back up his view. Which makes banning him for that post seem very dubious and as though it was just done as a reaction to his defiance and in anger.

    He just clearly says he doesn't believe in changing the Quran! So how can he be banned for that?

    And he uses Hazrat Umar(ra) as an example to back up his views on why certain things are not for all circumstances and all times.

    Personally, from what he said, I didn't think his reasoning or his views stand up anyway. Which is why I asked twice for someone else who knows more about that particular example to speak up, because I didn't and could only go on what he said in his post and the fact that didn't prove his argument in itself. I think someone else may have been able to refute him better, and I would have liked to have seen his response.

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  • jamila
    replied
    "hitting ones wife under ANY circumstances is now FORBIDDEN"

    He is calling something Haram which is clearly sanctioned as a means towards holding a marriage together, and hence halal. The ijtihad, in this case, is not to forbid what is sanctioned, but to determine exactly in what circumstances it is allowed and NOT TRANSGRESS BEYOND THAT. Allah does not like the transgressors.

    The reason (I imagine) Peace was banned is that he consistently goes to the extreme in what he thinks MUST BE CHANGED from what is ordained IN THE BOOK OF ALLAH. That is the blasphemy.

    Now, if he called for ijtihad on the interpretation of when and how the acts he dislikes so much are halal .... i.e. the details which can only be found in the traditional (sunnah) explanations .... perhaps such a radical step as banning a man who calls for the abandonment of the Book would not have been taken.

    Mariam, think before you openly support some-one as extreme in his opinions as Hassan.

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  • BobCleotisSmith
    replied
    So the Quran says:
    [4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

    Hassan says:
    I believe it is wrong to lay a finger on your wife under ANY circumstances.

    This part of the Qur'an - that allows a man to hit his wife - was for another time and another age, when people behaved and reacted differently. It is simply unacceptable in todays world!

    Fundie says:
    So let me state very clearly that I believe issues such as Hitting ones wife, Slavery, stoning and Death sentence for someone who excersise his freedom to choose whatever religion he believes were not meant to be applied at all times in all places - and that they were specific to the conditions and circumstances of the time.

    Clearly Fundie is saying the same thing as Hassan. So I fully expect Fundie to be banned posthaste.

    But more to the point, you both are interpreting. Because clearly the text of the Koran, which is valid over all other sources be they Sunna or Hadith or your own opinions could not be any clearer. I read nothing in that verse about 'adapt this to your own time and circumstance.' Care to explain?

    And as for language interpretation, that isn't a valid point. Unless the only language you speak is Arabic, your interpreting. Simply learning Arabic makes no difference, because if your English speaking, your still going to be translating internally. But it is clearly irrelevant in this case, as it's spelled out as plain as day. I can beat my wife! And she only has to be rebellious! Of course that isn't defined so I suppose it's left up to me to define it. My food was overcooked? Rebellious! My wife doesn't want to have sex? Rebellious! Where is my steel pip... umm toothbrush!( Such a beautiful woman...such a pity)
    Last edited by BobCleotisSmith; 21-10-04, 02:19 AM.

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  • kaleem26
    replied
    im assumin this is where brother hassan got his issue regarding the rule of itjihad?can anyone clarify? anyhow im checkin up on it and insha allah will post further replies.

    --------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.ummah.org.uk/what-is-islam/law/ijtihad.htm


    The ideology of Islam consists of two key aspects: a set of beliefs i.e. the creed, and a system of rules regulating man's actions emanating from the creed. And Quran is the primary source for both of them.

    Quran is definite i.e. nothing has been added or deleted from it since it was revealed but this does not necessarily means that the meaning of the text is definite. If there is only one possible understanding of the text then the meaning is considered definite and the sharaih (corpus juries of Islam) derived from the text is an assured rule. On the other hand, if the meaning of the text is open to more than one interpretation, the rule is derived from the text through Ijtihad - the process of making judgment based on Quran, Sunnah i.e. actions of the Prophet and his words of commandment, and qiyas i.e. divine analogy.

    Examples of the use of Ijtihad amongst the sahabah - companions of the Prophet (saw), are numerous. Following are some of the examples:


    Quran says: "As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands", but during the year of famine - which resembled the case of plight, Caliph Umar suspended the penalty for theft in view of the verse "Whosoever is forced to transgress the laws without violating the laws, then there is no sin against him"

    During the opening of Syria and Iraq, the sahabah disagreed over what should be done with the land they had opened. Some considered that the land should be divided into fifths as Quran prescribed. They were of the opinion that the four fifths of the land should be divided among the soldiers and the remaining one fifth should be distributed to those whom Allah has commanded in the Quran "Then truly to Allah belongs one fifth and to the Messenger, the Messenger's family, the orphans, the poor and needy and the wayfarer". Eventually, it was decided that the land should remain in the hands of the owners but under the authority of the Baytul Mal (treasury for the purpose of providing social security benefits) where every Muslim, including those identified in the verse, could benefit from it.

    Another example concerns the time of waiting (iddah - the period after which a woman can marry - a safeguard for ascertaining the correct fatherhood of a child) for the pregnant wife who becomes widowed. In view of the verse "For those who carry life in their wombs, their period is until they deliver their burden", there was an opinion that when a man dies and leaves a pregnant wife, her time of waiting expires at the birth of the child. While in view of the verse "If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days" there was another opinion that the time of waiting expires either when she gives birth or after 4 months 10 days, whichever is the longest duration. In other words, if the woman gives birth 8 weeks after her husband's death, she still has to wait the remaining 2 months and 10 days. It was resolved that each of the verses was interdependent and, were connected ingeneral to the other. The second verse in linked to the first which gives the understanding that the women whose husband has died, is under iddah for four months and ten days if she is free from pregnancy. However if she is pregnant, her iddah expires when she has given birth.


    Ijtihad has been a long established Islamic practice to find answers to new situations and differing circumstances. Sahabah were fortunate to be trained in Ijtihad by Prophet (saw) and by the events of that time. But after that it became more and more crucial and most practical to consider not only Quran and sunnah in Ijtihad but also their derivatives i.e. Ijma -as- sahaba (consensus of companions) and qiyas through hadiths, Islamic history and sharaih.

    Muslims have had different opinions since the time of the Messenger of Allah but it should not be seen as a weakness and source of disunity. The weakness and disunity is not the difference of opinions but rather in the way in which such differences are viewed. As long as an opinion is based on an Islamic evidence, and that opinion does not contradict an assured rule, that opinion should be respected as an Islamic opinion.

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