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  • #16
    Originally posted by sajid
    user has been here i think 6 times before and been banned..based on the current new nickname and past posts (under his other name) it seems he is hear to stir up trouble again..unless he can prove himself...
    thanks guys
    Father, Son, Holy Spirit... Glory, Honour, Power!!!

    Comment


    • #17
      we dont usually ban just cos we dont agree with someone it dont work like that.....
      but at times u gotta look at the past and see whether a user has come in with other names before been banned his repuation and that sorts and first impressions on first few points if he seems geniunie then thats fine if its just to poke fun or cause arguments usually they get their accounts disabled.....most people are legit and genunine but u get the odd one or 2

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Brutus_Beefcake
        [4:34] ...If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them...
        Brutus does make a valid point!

        Since the Qur'an itself allows a husband to hit his wife under 'certain' circumstances. It is then not surprising that some misguided men abuse this license and beat them at the drop of a hat!

        I believe it is wrong to lay a finger on your wife under ANY circumstances.

        This part of the Qur'an - that allows a man to hit his wife - was for another time and another age, when people behaved and reacted differently. It is simply unacceptable in todays world!

        I don't believe for one minute that God wants us to hit anyone! Let alone our wife! But as with many situations in 7th Century Arabia - the society could not be transformed over night - and so strict rules and regulations were set in force - with the aim of eliminating such behaviour (an analogy is Slavery).

        We must make it explicit in Shari'ah that hitting ones wife under ANY circumstances is now FORBIDDEN!!!!!!!

        Otherwise such wife beaters will always abuse this sanction in the Qur'an!
        Show LOVE with no remorse!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Peace
          This part of the Qur'an - that allows a man to hit his wife - was for another time and another age, when people behaved and reacted differently. It is simply unacceptable in todays world!
          by your logic Hassan i believe that targeting the enemy civillians who pay taxes which support the enemy military power is very fine as the verses which forbid us from killing the enemy civillians was for another time and age where all the fighting was done by swords.

          but...

          ...Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other?..
          002:085

          افتؤمنون ببعض الكتاب وتكفرون ببعض
          My toughest fight was with my first wife.

          Muhammad Ali Clay

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          • #20
            ser has been here i think 6 times before and been banned..based on the current new nickname and past posts (under his other name) it seems he is hear to stir up trouble again..unless he can prove himself...
            I've been at Ummah as long as you have Sajid. You can get banned for many things here, but it speaks volumes if you get banned for quoting the Koran( apparently that is what stirring up trouble means :) ).

            This man may have thought his behavior was Islamically justified.
            If I read the Koran, and the Koran says I can beat my wife, how is this not justified through Islam? It's as clear as day. And we all know that the Koran is the word of God, there is no room for interpretation.

            Al Nasser makes a valid point as well, Hassan. If your going to purge the Islamic world of this type of behavior then you need to amend the Koran in the literal sense or interpret it. I'm simply playing devil's advocate because your odds are slim that your going to convinvce a fundie or otherwise that what he can read with his own eyes is misguided. He has the advantage here, not you. He has 1400 years of theological law to back him up. What do you have?

            But good luck.
            Please Re-update your Signature

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Peace
              Brutus does make a valid point!

              Since the Qur'an itself allows a husband to hit his wife under 'certain' circumstances. It is then not surprising that some misguided men abuse this license and beat them at the drop of a hat!

              I believe it is wrong to lay a finger on your wife under ANY circumstances.

              This part of the Qur'an - that allows a man to hit his wife - was for another time and another age, when people behaved and reacted differently. It is simply unacceptable in todays world!

              I don't believe for one minute that God wants us to hit anyone! Let alone our wife! But as with many situations in 7th Century Arabia - the society could not be transformed over night - and so strict rules and regulations were set in force - with the aim of eliminating such behaviour (an analogy is Slavery).

              We must make it explicit in Shari'ah that hitting ones wife under ANY circumstances is now FORBIDDEN!!!!!!!

              Otherwise such wife beaters will always abuse this sanction in the Qur'an!
              Instead of denying what Allah swt why dont you explain it? I was on a lecture and a non-muslim asked this question and qouted the Quran. Here is what the brother answerd.

              First of all, Wen husband and wife has aguement the man makes udah to Allah that she changes, Ad if that doent happend when they are in bed he should turn his back (I translated this as not having sex) and the final position is not talking to her.

              Afterall this happen the final thing for the husband to take miswak and tap her. AND NOT IT IS CLEARLY FORBIDDEN TO BEAT HER, ITS EVEN HARAM TO MAKE HER SKIN RED!.

              To take the miswak (teeth brush) and tap her with it in the arms.

              I ask Allah swt to guide you, It is ramadan and you are sitting here and potraying the noble sahaba radiallahu anhum as "wife beaters". WHen you say it you make it sound like Big arabs with big beards beating the hell of out of there wives.

              Rasolilah tought us, If you take the Quran the verse that says kill the unbelivers some misguided persons think going to your kafir neighbor and shooting him. And ofcourse this is Haram. Becouse is twisting the Allahs message.

              The Quran is the eternal book, It is Allahs words.
              Last edited by Huja Usman; 19-10-04, 03:06 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                hmm how long u been at ummah for?

                me been here since 1999!

                seriously if u were before what was ur username?

                just curious

                Comment


                • #23
                  ok if u behave and not make sweeping statments like u did before then ur ok..

                  ive said this before the way a people post will effect the way they are portrayed
                  for example under ur other alias one of the first posts u said

                  "lets discuss rape in shariah and all"

                  u see new guy (u may not be) first few posts and u post things like that

                  its this negativity u get from others..

                  sure if u are here for answers not a problem but the way ya ask questions can have an impact on the way u are portrayed..fair enough there are those long enought to know whether u are genuine or not but id say for Majority of posters starting like that ur gonna be labelled "the anti muslim"

                  bout what u said "speaking the Quran" yup u did quote but the way u made your comments about it seemed disrespectful.....

                  see what i mean?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Al-Nasser
                    by your logic Hassan i believe that targeting the enemy civillians who pay taxes which support the enemy military power is very fine as the verses which forbid us from killing the enemy civillians was for another time and age where all the fighting was done by swords.

                    but...



                    ...Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other?..

                    002:085

                    افتؤمنون ببعض الكتاب وتكفرون ببعض

                    Yes you make a good point. There must be some acceptable framework and basis for re-interpretation - it cannot be simply up to the whim of any Tom, Dick or Harry.

                    I have suggested before that the consensus of the scholars could be that basis and the framework could be a close exammination of the Qur'an and Sunnah and use of "Ijtihad" - using the very tools God gave us - "Aql" (Reasoning/intelligence) and "Fitrah" (nature/conscience).

                    If the scholars were to once again apply ijtihad and use sound reasoning and understanding of the conditions and situation then as compared to the conditions and situation now - I feel confident they could come to an agreement on what re-interpretations are necessary.

                    But unfortuantely - at the moment - few scholars are willing to take such bold steps.

                    But I am hopeful that this will happen eventually.
                    Show LOVE with no remorse!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by BobCleotisSmith
                      If your going to purge the Islamic world of this type of behavior then you need to amend the Koran in the literal sense or interpret it. I'm simply playing devil's advocate because your odds are slim that your going to convinvce a fundie or otherwise that what he can read with his own eyes is misguided. He has the advantage here, not you. He has 1400 years of theological law to back him up. What do you have?
                      Many Muslims are feeling this dilemma between traditional interpretations and the reality of a world that has changed radically from the sort of behaviour and circumstances that existed then.

                      There are many scholars who are re-interpreting issues such as this. I believe it is only a matter of time when the reality of what people feel inside translates into effective action to re-interpret the original texts.
                      Show LOVE with no remorse!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Huja Mehmet
                        First of all, When husband and wife has aguement the man makes duah to Allah that she changes
                        What if she's right?

                        Originally posted by Huja Mehmet
                        And if that doent happend when they are in bed he should turn his back (I translated this as not having sex)
                        OK

                        Originally posted by Huja Mehmet
                        After all this has happened, the final thing is for the husband to take miswak and tap her
                        I have often tried to visualise this in reality. I mean after you have tried talking it through, prayed, even tried a form of seperation and nothing works, then you ask your wife to stand still for a moment while you tap her lightly on the arm????

                        I can just see her response:

                        "Ah! OK! Now I see the error of my ways. All the talking and praying and seperation, didn't work, but now that I feel that tap on my shoulder it has all become clear"

                        Be honest! Do you seriously think such a thing is reasonable!???????????


                        I often hear people say it just means a tap with a Miswak - and they bring their evidence - fine! OK! But that in itself is a re-interpretation! LOL!

                        The Qur'an says "WaDriboohunna" - Hit them - it says nothing about a Miswak - and many traditional scholars do not specify it has to be with a Miswak - some clearly agree that it could be hitting in the sense of a slap or a smack!

                        In 7th century Arabia where women were treated as chattles and were used to such treatment - and fear and punishment yeilded results - it is clear that the Qur'an actually came to REDUCE and DIMINISH such behaviour by setting a clear PROCEEDURE that had to be followed FIRST before resorting to such punishments.

                        The Qur'an did not invent such a punishment - it merely sought to control and set limits to it (and eventually get rid of it imho)

                        Today such a smack, Slap (or Tap with a Miswak) would bring nothing but contempt and humilation to the wife.

                        In practical terms alone it simply would not work.

                        We live in a different age.

                        And Ramadan is the best time to really REFLECT on God's book - not just recite it - but THINK!

                        Time to wake up!
                        Last edited by Peace; 19-10-04, 03:40 PM.
                        Show LOVE with no remorse!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by AbuMubarak
                          and if she can, to get some brothers to kick his butt
                          I'll do it... the second I've opened my fast :@
                          Rabbana atinaa fidDunya hasanatan wa fil Akhirati hasanatan wa qinaa adhaban Naar

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                          • #28
                            .
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                            .
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                            .
                            Originally posted by mariam
                            Where do men, let alone Muslim men get the idea that the oppression of women is ok?


                            Directly from the lips of Allah, via Muhammad !
                            Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because All‚h has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to All‚h and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what All‚h orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds,
                            (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance).
                            Surely, All‚h is Ever Most High, Most Great.
                            The guy is obviously a good Muslim who was only adhering to Allah's message and law.
                            Please Re-update your Signature

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              1. Does the Arabic word 'daraba' necessarily mean "violent or intense or repeated striking?"





                              No.

                              Jurists routinely use the expression "daraba al-ma' `ala wajhihi" - lit. strike water upon the face, for someone accomplishing the first rukn of wudu' (washing the face).

                              Also in Arabic daraba al-ard "to strike the earth" - as in verse 4:94 {When you strike the earth in the cause of Allah} - means to travel, i.e. walking with a staff.

                              2. Has the phrase 'wadribuhunna' in 4:34 normally been interpreted as a command or has it been interpreted as more of a recommendation?

                              Not even a recommendation. Al-Razi said in his Tafsir on 4:34 (1308/1891 edition 3:222): "Al-Shaf`i said: 'wa al-darbu mubah, wa al-tarku afdal - and hitting is permitted, but not hitting is preferable.'"

                              NB: Al-Shafi`i's position is therefore that it is "permissible", NOT "just barely permissible" as misrepresented by Muhammad Asad. [_The Message of the Qur'an_, translation and commentary of the Qur'an by Muhammad Asad (1980), footnote 45, p. 109 (one of the commentaries on verse 4:34).]

                              The basic rule (asl) is strict prohibition, followed by dispensation (rukhsa) as explicited by the Prophet in the hadith below, which al-Shafi`i took for his evidence in his ruling:

                              The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Do not hit the maidservants of Allah!" (la tadribu ima' Allah). Then `Umar (RA) came to the Prophet (pbuh) and said [NB: by way of exaggeration, cf. `Awn al-Ma`bud]: "The women are rebelling (dha'irna) against their husbands!" So the Prophet (pbuh) GAVE A DISPENSATION (rakhkhasa) to beat them. Whereupon women started pouring in to see the family of the Messenger of Allah and complain about their husbands. Seeing this, the Prophet (pbuh)said: "Many women have poured in to see the family of Muhammad, complaining of their husbands, and *the latter are certainly not the best of you*." Narrated from Iyas ibn `Abd Allah ibn Abi Dhubab by al-Shafi`i in his Musnad, Abu Dawud, al-Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, al-Tabarani in al-Kabir, and al-Hakim. Al-Nawawi and al-Suyuti graded it a sound (sahih) narration in Riyad al-Salihin [RS-281] and al-Jami` al-Saghir respectively.

                              In a version cited by al-Razi in his Tafsir, (3:222) `Umar also states: "We the Quraysh used to have our men holding sway over our women. Then we came to Madina and found that their women held sway over their men. Then our women mixed with their women until they rebelled (dha'irna) against their husbands. So I came to the Prophet (pbuh) and told him: 'The women are rebelling against their husbands!' So he (pbuh) GAVE PERMISSION (adhina) to beat them. Whereupon, etc."

                              Some people who were influenced by feminism until they forgot the Adab of Islam, tend to badmouth Sayyidina `Umar for what they term his mistreatment of women. While it is true that the Arabs in general and Sayyidina `Umar in particular had a very high sense of self-respect (ghira) as attested by no less than the Prophet (pbuh) (in the hadith where he mentions seeing `Umar's palace in Paradise), nevertheless we should observe Adab so as not to commit a sin whenever mentioning the Prophet (pbuh), his Family, and His Companions, indeed all Muslims as Allah (SWT) made the honor of a Muslim as sacrosanct as his life and property.

                              The Prophet (pbuh) also expressed astonishment at the cruelty of certain men when he said: "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" (Bukhari and Muslim).

                              The crafty little anti-Islam page on domini.org states:

                              "The Qur'an states:

                              "Righteous women are therefore obedient, And those you fear may be rebellious (nushuz) admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them."

                              "Some translators add the word lightly after 'beat them' in Q 4:34. Others like Mohammed Pickthall and Rodwell translate the word 'edrebouhon - beat them' as 'scourge them'. [...] But "a beating without causing injury" (agreed upon)

                              "So the man has the right to beat his rebellious wife as long as that beating is not like the whipping of the slave and will not result in injury."

                              Of course the above is false and tendentious but couched in the syrupy style typical of missionaries.

                              The hadith in Muslim states that the Prophet (pbuh) in his Farewell Pilgrimage said: "Lo! My last recommendation to you is that you should TREAT WOMEN WELL. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that - EXCEPT IF THEY COMMIT A MANIFEST INDECENCY (fahisha mubina = adultery). If they do, then refuse to share their beds and beat them WITHOUT INDECENT VIOLENCE (fadribu hunna darban ghayra mubarrih*). Then, if they obey you, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over them is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision."

                              *** Then he took the covenant from them and from us that they and we all heard and understood this from him, respectively, directly and indirectly, with his forefinger raised, and said: "O Allah! bear witness." ***

                              After this, whatever Muslim man derogates to the recommendation of the Prophet (pbuh) has violated his covenant with the Prophet and shall be called to account for it; and whoever of the non-Muslim men or women claims - even the Archbishop of Canterbury and his wife - that beating women is allowed in Islam, has belied the Divine witness invoked by the Prophet and shall be called to account for it in the Divine Court.

                              *"Mubarrih" is defined in al-Mawrid as "violent, intense, severe, acute, sharp, excruciating, tormenting, agonizing." Qatada said as narrated by al-Tabari in his Tafsir (5:68): "Ghayr mubarrih means ghayr sha'in = not disgraceful/ outrageous/ obscene/ indecent [beating]." Muhammad Asad translates it over-figuratively as "not causing pain."
                              3. What is the evidence for saying that this 'striking' is in fact only supposed to be carried out with something small, like a miswak?

                              `Ata' said: "I asked Ibn `Abbas: 'What is the hitting that is ghayr al-mubarrih?' He replied: '[With] the siwak and the like'." Narrated by al-Tabari in his Tafsir (Dar al-Fikr reprint 5:68).

                              Al-Razi (3:222) mentions that as a rule (a) it must be a light beating and (b) the face must be avoided. He added that certain of the Shafi`i jurists said "a coiled scarf (mindil malfuf) (NB: NOT "a folded handkerchief" as mistranslated by Asad) or his hand may be used but not a whip nor a stick."
                              4. Where is the hadith found in which the Prophet (pbuh) said to a servant-girl who had been extremely late "If I were not afraid of Allah, I would hit you with this" referring to a miswak?

                              Ibn Sa`d in al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, Al-Tabarani in al-Mu`jam al-Kabir, Abu Ya`la in his Musnad, Abu Nu`aym in Hilyat al-Awliya' and al-Hakim in al-Mustadrak narrated from Umm Salama: "The Prophet (pbuh)was in my house and there was a siwak in his hand. He called for Wasifa [the servant-girl] to come to him or to her [i.e. to serve Umm Salama] but she tarried until anger was visible on his face. So Umm Salama went out to her and found her playing with an animal. She said to her: "You are playing while the Messenger of Allah is calling you?" She replied: "No, by the one who sent you with truth! I did not hear you." Whereupon the Prophet (pbuh) said: "Were it not for fear of exaction (qawad) on the Day of Resurrection, I should surely make you sore (la'awja`tuki) with this toothpick."

                              Al-Munawi in Fayd al-Qadir mentioned that al-Mundhiri and al-Haythami declared its chain of transmission good. Al-Suyuti graded the hadith "fair" (hasan) in al-Jami` al-Saghir. Al-Muttaqi cited it in Kanz al-`Ummal (#39820, 39821, 39829).
                              5. What is the exact meaning of 'nushuz'? It is translated as disobedience, but there seem to be others who think it means something more like 'ill-will' or 'hostility' or 'ill-treatment'.

                              It depends on context and how these terms are themselves understood by those who use them. Ill-treatment on the part of a wife to her husband, for example, is a bit different from ill-treatment on the part of a grocer to his customer.

                              Nushuz is translated "Recalcitrance, disobedience, violation of marital duties on the part of the wife" in al-Mawrid Ar-Eng Dictionary.

                              Nushuz in the verse, as shown, is an euphemism for adultery because her primary marital duty is spelled out in the hadith as "not allowing whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house." Al-Maziri also said that another interpretation of the words in that hadith said it referred to a woman sitting in seclusion with a stranger inside her husband's house. (Al-Nawawi, Sharh Sahih Muslim.)
                              6. Is it not true that slapping someone on the face is not allowed in Islam? Is there a consensus on this point?

                              It is a transgression requiring exaction (qawad) which can be changed into monetary compensation (diyya) in the Four Schools, and Allah knows best.

                              Examples: (a) the famous hadith from Mu`awiya ibn al-Hakam in Sahih Muslim of the black woman slave whom her owner slaps and is then obligated to manumit as her compensation.

                              (b) Also in Sahih Muslim, the example of Suwayd ibn Muqarrin who saw a man slap his female slave and told him: "Do you not know that the face is taboo? (al-sura muharrama) I, whom you see in front of you, the seventh of my brothers, was with the Messenger of Allah and we only had one servant; one of us slapped him, so the Messenger of Allah commanded us to free him."

                              (c) A man from the Ansar insulted al-`Abbas's father who lived in the Time of Ignorance, whereupon al-`Abbas slapped him. The man returned to his people who said: "By Allah, we shall slap him just as he slapped him," and they girded their weapons. News of this reached the Prophet who ascended the pulpit and said: "O people! Who among the dwellers of the earth is deemed most honorable in the presence of Allah?" They said, "You." He continued: "And al-`Abbas is part of me, and I am part of him. Do not insult our dead, thereby harming our living." The people then came to the Prophet and said: "O Messenger of Allah! We seek refuge in Allah from your anger." Narrated from Ibn `Abbas by Ahmad and al-Nasa'i with a sound chain according to al-`Iraqi in Takhrij Ahadith al-Ihya', also al-Tabarani in al-Mu`jam al-Kabir.

                              Al-Sindi in his commentary on al-Nasa'i's Sunan said: "Since he had begun with the insult, the slap received was not to obtain retaliation."

                              Note that the directive of the above hadith was royally ignored by the Wahhabi preacher of the Prophet's Mosque in Madina, Abu Bakr al-Jaza'iri, who used to shout at the top of his lungs, right next to al-Mustafa?: "The father and mother of the Prophet are in hellfire! The father and mother of the Prophet are in hellfire!" and so until his death last year. I wonder, should we believe that Abu Bakr al-Jaza'iri and his parents are in Paradise, while the parents of the Prophet Muhammad are in hellfire? Hasbuna Allah.

                              The ruling of automatic manumission for striking a slave in the face is established by the following hadith of the Prophet:

                              (d) "Whoever strikes his slave in the face or beats him unjustly, his expiation is to manumit him." Narrated from Ibn `Umar by Muslim in his Sahih.

                              The ruling that the face is taboo is established by the following hadith of the Prophet:

                              (e) "If you fight your brother, avoid striking the face, for Allah created Adam in his image." Narrated from Abu Hurayra by Muslim and al-Bukhari, the latter without the words "your brother." If this is forbidden while fighting or when interacting with a slave, then a fortiori it is forbidden outside fighting and with one's wife.

                              Do not be misled by the Satanic whispers of domini.org which states:

                              "The occasion in which Q 4:34 was revealed sheds more light on the meaning of that verse. Most commentators mention that the above verse was revealed in connection with a woman who complained to Mohammad that her husband slapped her on the face (which was still marked by the slap). At first the Prophet said to her: 'Get even with him', but then added : 'Wait until I think about it.' Later on the above verse was revealed, after which the Prophet said: 'We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best.' [Razi, At-tafsir al-Kabir, on Q. 4:34.]"

                              Crafty, crafty, and all for what? lies. Ars longa, vita brevis!

                              The commentators also mention that this report is narrated only from al-Hasan al-Basri who is NOT a Companion. The most that can be said of it here is that it is a weak, isolated, mursal Tabi`i report that does not have probative force.

                              What is more, al-Hasan himself flatly contradicts the above as he reportedly explained {wadribu hunna} to mean: "hitting that is not obscene; hitting that *does not leave a trace*" (darban ghayra mubarrih ghayra mu'aththir). Narrated by al-Tabari in his Tafsir (Dar al-Fikr reprint 5:68).

                              And Allah Most High knows best.

                              {Wa Makaru wa Makara Allah wAllahu Khayru-l-Makirin}

                              {Yuridun an yutfi'u Nur Allah bi Afwahihim wa Ya'ba Allah

                              Illa an Yatimma Nurahu wa law Kariha al-Kafirun}

                              Blessings and peace of Allah on the Prophet, his Family, and his Companions.

                              Hajj Gibril

                              GF Haddad

                              (Source: http://www.abc.se/~m9783/fiqhi/fiqha_e32.html)
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                              • #30
                                Its weird how people encourage their children not to resort to physical violence, get into physical fights with other children yet its fine to beat the c**p out the wife should she show a bit of cheek/be cheeky, argumentative or rude (?)

                                hmm..then people wonder why society is in the state it is.

                                Ws
                                You are not aware of the consequences that would result (if you were granted what you desire) because what you seek might be to your detriment. (O soul) be conscious that your Master is more aware about your well-being than you are.

                                ~Ibn Al-Jawzee

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