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Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

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  • #76
    Originally posted by mariam
    Sis,

    I haven't seen your way of life, or mine attacked by anyone in this thread.

    In my generation, the males in my family (non-Muslim, non-Jewish) were all circumscized, not for a religious reason, but because it was considered a medically sound practice by the parents.

    In my children's generation, of the non-Muslim males, 14 of them are not circumscized (my own sons included) because it was considered a sound medical practice by the parents.

    One, non-Muslim nephew, was circumscized because it was considered a sound medical practice by his parents.

    One, Jewish nephew, was circumscized due to his religion and it was considered a sound medical practice by his parents.

    I am able to accept surfinjo's pov without it compromising my own.

    And inshallah if I am ever blessed with another son, his father and I will obey the Islamic tradition.

    But that won't stop me from accepting another parent's right to chose what they think is best for their own child.

    Peace,

    Mariam
    Dear DEAR dear sister mariam,

    i think it is very sweet that you always see the good in people but surfinjo is not talking about the threat of men to be forcibly circumcised in his family he is talking about the practice of circumcision in MUSLIM SOCIETY (and jewish society and other societies). I would like to know WHY ON EARTH DOES IT CONCERN HIM? he certainly cannot seem to explain it to me... may be you could help me to undertsand.

    DO you think he just came on this board (on a thread regarding FGM of all things!) and started talking about male circumsicion because he had some type of FEAR that it would be enforced on HIS children?!!!! do you HONESTLY beleive that? that he in his western democracy is in fear of what he sees as a threat to his children? IT DOES NOT EFFECT HIM IN ANY WAY!!!!

    or do you think that by analysing the situation logically you can see how he is one of those people who like to compare circumcision to FGM so that they can bunch together what they see to be the faults of the two? SO that we cannot remain on the VERY important issue at hand? too blur the lines of what is and what is not acceptable? To draw attention to how he would like to question male circumcision and hence how he thinks people who practice such a things are inferior to him and his thought process? do you know there is a MOVEMENT to try and ban male circumcision? do you know that people like briget bardot have nothing better to do with their time but complain about male circumcision? (and what she considers a backward culture in wihich she thinks we torture babies and torture animals. stupid racist cow) Do you not think there are better things to be done than to try and ban something that is a way of life for so many people? Something thati s not doing ANY damage, menatlly physically or emotionally?

    I find his thoughts on the matter indeed offensive and still maintain that he has the luxury in his life to suffer from the white mans burden complex.

    if you do not see why he is offending my sense of freedom to do as i wish to my children when they are not being harmed i would like you to explain why. I come from a family that NEVER raised a hand at a child. I was NEVER hit in my whole life form any members of my own family. I was taught that to teach a child to LOVE and to REASON are the best way to raise them. But to hear some random man go on and on about how it COULD (no evidence) prove to be harmful is ridiculous. Bloody Hell! get a job. do something useful. I am not saying (and have NEVER said) you MUST get your children circumcised so please stay away from the rights of muslims to have their children circumcised. as i said before b****r off (and do something that will be appreciated by people other than the far right. ooh i can make a list of great causes of you want)

    P.S. tihs cause is very important to me and hence i am again VERY annoyed. please forgive me for my rant but unitl i am made to see it any other way, this will be how i feel.
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    • #77
      Pondering Star you are 100 percent correct, you see what the extremists fail to understand is the flow of the western discussion. Let me give a brief outline of there stance.


      FGM is wrong and is inuhmane.....

      Little while later

      Female Circumcision is another word for FGM and is inhumane....

      Another small while later

      Oh Male mircumcision is inhumane as the child is not able to decide

      Just a little more later

      Oh in fact all circumcision is mutilation and is wrong

      A smaller while later

      Oh Islam allows circumcision and hence allows mutilation thus Islam persecutes women and children and unknowing adherents through mutilation.

      Then the extremists shout..... There is nothing in Islam that forces male circumcision, in fact you dont have to do it if you dont want to in fact many people choose not to its just a tradition a ritual custom nothing more.... Oh Islam codemns female circumcision it is just barabaric it is FGM the Muslims should be made aware of this, we should condemn the somali community for doing this in the same way we condem the arabs for Polygany and the Asians for high birth rates etc etc'

      That is why when I hear a kafir tell me about the situation in the Muslim world in regards to such discussion I tell him go take a hike and let us deal with our own problems, neither do I trust your figures nor your intentions nor do I want to co-operate with you in any way in the Muslim world. Go ask the accused before you judge them but I know that many people who have stood here and condemned the 'immigrants in europe' for this practice have not had the decency to ask them before hand. Even though in ISlam we must verify information from Muslims not trust some two bit glamourised call girl when she tells us what is happening in the Muslim world.
      And Allâh has set forth an example for those who believe, the wife of Fir'aun when she said: "My Lord! Build for me a home with You in Paradise, and save me from Fir'aun and his work, and save me from the people who are Zâlimûn


      There is no nobility in anyone who lacks faith.

      The wise man knows that the only fitting price for his soul is a place in Paradise.

      Comment


      • #78
        Al_irhaab, i understad your concerns brother. However from you previous post i was reminded of your treatment of sister miriam and am still rather disgusted. She is a msulim and belives in Allah and the prophet and as such i find it offensive for you to not call her by her name. You may disagree with her but she is a sister. for your treat her with disregard and contempt is not good.

        Remember that the prophet was known to be kind and caring and compassionate. If you two do not see eye to eye is one thing but to treat her badly is another. I must admit that i had assumed you would have gotten over your silly issue and would be a bit more humble especially once i had provided proof form the Quran that it was wrong for you to call her by a mocking nickname.

        I am sorry that you have so much pride in your ways that you cannot see right from wrong. I pray Allah gives you wisdom on this matter and i hope that you are open to recieveing it.
        Ameen.
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        • #79
          I would not like to go be .... but tell me how helps this operation, on man or woman, to become more religious and in this way a better person?:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

          Comment


          • #80
            Female Circumcision is done the bad way in the bad time.....i mean..if Female Circumcision is justified i heard that its done in a very brutal way most of the time because of cultural reasons.....don't forget that it was a pharaonic tradition...and also why is it done to girls when they are 3 or 4 years old? why not like the guys when they are 7 days old.....a 3 year old girl suffering brutal operation will be effected for the rest of her life.....i mean..who remember anything about her/his 7th day on earth?
            My toughest fight was with my first wife.

            Muhammad Ali Clay

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            • #81
              The women who perform FGM on little girls have almost always had this done to themselves.

              Research, some of which I provided links to, indicates that these women say categorically that they enjoy a full sex live and that FGM has had no detrimental effect upon them. Most of these women do indeed go on to have families and be adjusted members of their society.

              I have accepted the term circumcision for the modified mutilation which is done on children to avoid an additional argument.

              The argument that people who have had this done to them as children go on to lead normal lives is exactly the same argument that the women who perform and support FGM make, and just as specious.

              These organs exist for a purpose, and their removal affects that purpose.

              There is absolutely no reason why Muslims cannot have this procedure done when they are old enough to consent for themselves.

              The Prophet (pbuh) himself said, that if circumcision is a barrier to someone becomming a Muslim then there is no need to circumcise. (I first read this in one of the pastes in this thread. I'm still trying to find the specific reference.)

              Your question as to why it concerns me has already been answered. For exactly the same reason that FGM, predominantly done in Africa, by non-Muslims, concerns you.

              Al_irhaab

              Your attempt to reconstruct what I have written is dishonest and does you no credit as a Muslim.
              Last edited by surfinjo; 30-11-04, 01:39 PM.
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              • #82
                i'm sorry but you are probably again taking things at a surface.

                As a man who is obvioulsy not in touch with the nature of humankind, i do not think you are the best judge of what is and is not a normal and healthy sex life for a woman.

                If the woman has been circumcised this is indeed possible. I have never had any such procedure but can understand how the procedure would probably even enhance a womans sex life.

                If however if the ****oris is removed thisis FGM. Many people in the west claim that BOTH are FGM this is not true. So the things you read may very well be regarding female circumcision.

                It is not POSSIBLE for a woman without a ****oris to enjoy a normal sexual life. The last i read 96% of women cannot have sexual satisfaction without it. WHOLE generations of women in this country were never expected to enjoy sexual relations. The very old grandmother of my friend STILL thinks that it is ridiculous for a woman to claim that she gets any pleasure from the act as she was part of the "lie back and think of england" generation. However i am sure she would claim that she had a normal and healthy sex life and has been an active member of societya dn had children and grandchildren.

                therefore that claim of yours is empty and pointless.

                The organs that exists are not being put in danger. It is only skin that is removed, not by a deep cut and a four hour operation. I am sure if some african tribe cut a babies finger lightly to draw a drop of blood at birth you would again protest. even if it was their system thatthey had been doign for centuries you would go into shock and say "you know what the problem is with these natives sir gregory, it's that they are just too darn barbaric, wot wot, i say i say, they need to be taught a little lesson about proper civilisation ay! jolly hockey sticks, lets all play lacross after lunch ay! and i propose ladies and gentlemen wot wot that we are the people do it! hoorah, I love a bit of colonialism first thing in the morning!" IT DOES NOT EFFECT YOU YOU RIGHT WING PAWN! it had nothing to do with you. this is whny this is your white mans burden complex.

                As i said befroe B****R off! you are pointless in any form of help! get a job, do somehting useful! you are a hindrance to the cause.

                you claim that you have distingushed the difference between circumcision and FGm, but yet you continue to claim this:

                "Your question as to why it concerns me has already been answered. For exactly the same reason that FGM, predominantly done in Africa, by non-Muslims, concerns you."

                Erm i'm sorry but firstly, the people who mutilate women do it quite WRONGLY in the name of Islam, so as a Muslim it is my concern it is not yours. again as i said B****R OFF YOU'RE NOT WANTED!!! If the non muslims don't want my advice i shall let them do what they want. okay? Deal? how about that eh?

                secondly if you had differentiatied the two you wouldn't have YET AGAIN made them comparable. Make up your mind. Stop acting like you have logic on your side when you just have arrogance and self importance.

                What you are requesting (that men have this procedure done when they are older) would make Islam difficult. we would not like to make it so becasue we are not as stupid as you.

                You have a ponsey upper class right wing ignorant self righteous arrogant attitude to the whole matter. GO join bridget bardot in her anti muslim disguised as caring left wing hippy bandwagon and leave us alone. Just because you probably either suffer some major crisis because you have been circumcised incorrectly (which i doubt since you would have brought it up by mow) or because you feel inferior because most men who have been circumcised are happy with their lives and their bodies wheras many western men who have not been are queueing up to have teh procedure done at old age because even western society seems to be in agreement of the aesthetic and hygenic benefits. either way, IT DOES NOT CONCERN YOU.

                IT DOES NOT CONCERN YOU.IT DOES NOT CONCERN YOU.IT DOES NOT CONCERN YOU!!!

                how about you invade south africa again and kill some zulus whilst you're at it? "for they are jolly well savage ay ol' chap, better we bring civilisation to them whether they want it or not ay? wot wot!"

                bloody toff!
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                • #83
                  I think the idea of doing this on any female is just sick.

                  Why do it in the first place?
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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by ponderingstar
                    As i said befroe B****R off! you are pointless in any form of help! get a job, do somehting useful! you are a hindrance to the cause.bloody toff!
                    Why are you so violent against mister surfinjo? I think he can judge whats wrong and good.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      because dear amal, he is trying to blur the lines between FGM (a very horrific process of mutilation) and circumcision (something all muslims and jewish men undergo yet have no negative sideaffects) This makes me angry because it prevents things being done about the former when people LATCH onto the latter. (A little how they pass certains bills in america, by attaching a silly little corrupt one to a very important big one)

                      not only that but he holds that this is valid because depite he not being affected either way by laws of whether to cirumcise your child or not, he maintains that somehow he knows what is better for people (muslims jews etc) which have nothing to do with him. this makes me angry because of all the good causes in the world he chooses one which does not affect him, and which starts with the assumption that there is something wrong with our religion. as though there are not better things to waste his time with

                      Since i do not chase his children around demanding they be circumsized, i demand he stay away from my right as a muslim to do as i please to my own children. this makes me angry becasue i do not try to dictate his rights to him, who on earth does he think he is dictating my rights to me?

                      he would like to IMPLY that this is somehow barbaric and that it would be better if we let boys choose to be circumcised when they get older. When i suggest we ask the muslim men on this forum whether they would prefer to be circumcised at seven days of age or seventeen years of age, he suggests this somehow proves his point. This makes me angry because he ignores the fact that the men are happy with what has been done to them and that theya re not out there in droves begging for his precious help.

                      The politics and history of the western world against "other" cultures is steeped in arrogance. i for one and sick of all forms of racism and elitism. His actions remind me of that, and this makes me very angry too.
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                      • #86
                        ponderingstar you claim that you have distingushed the difference between circumcision and FGm, but yet you continue to claim this:

                        No, I did not.

                        I said I accepted the distinction to avoid additional argument. Mutilating genitals, for whatever reason, what ever the justification is mutilation.

                        Doing this to people without their consent is disgraceful, and in Islam completely unnecessary.

                        the people who mutilate women do it quite WRONGLY in the name of Islam, so as a Muslim it is my concern it is not yours.

                        That is your assumption. The evidence suggests that FGM in Africa is a cultural practice which is done by people practicing many different faiths.

                        Equally, male genital mutilation is done in many parts of the world by people practicing many different faiths. That some people try to defend the practice in the name of their faith, especially when their faith does not require this to be done while the person is too young to give consent is wrong.

                        What you are requesting (that men have this procedure done when they are older) would make Islam difficult. we would not like to make it so becasue we are not as stupid as you.

                        If you are suggesting that men might be reluctant to accept Islam if they faced being circumcised then that is up to you. I would have thought that a faith as strong as Islam would still be able to attract equally large numbers of men even with the prospect of being circumcised.

                        You have a ponsey upper class right wing ignorant self righteous arrogant attitude to the whole matter.

                        Kinda says it all really!

                        demand he stay away from my right as a muslim to do as i please to my own children.

                        You demand the right to cut off part of their sex organs as an act of their faith, before they have even had the chance to decided for themselves if they want to practice that faith in the first place (as required by Islamic law) ?
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                        • #87
                          Considering Converting: Is it necessary to be circumcised?

                          Answered by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari, UK
                          www.daruliftaa.co.uk

                          Q.

                          I am considering converting to Islam from Catholicism. What I want to know is if the circumcision is absolutely compulsory?





                          A.In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

                          When one becomes convinced and has strong belief that Islam is the true religion ordained by Allah Almighty for all human beings, then he should go ahead and accept Islam without any delay.

                          The basic beliefs one is required to accept while entering the fold of Islam are as following:

                          1) God is One. He has neither a partner, nor a son or daughter. He is One in the true sense of the word that has no room for the concept of trinity, or for any other form of camouflage monotheism or a disguised polytheism.

                          2) The Holy Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him & give him peace) is the last Messenger of Allah after whom no messenger or prophet of Allah (in any sense of the word) will come.

                          3) The Holy Qur'an is the last of the divine books revealed upon the blessed Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), and all its contents are true.

                          4) The life in the Hereafter (after death) is eternal, where one will face the fate of his good and evil deeds.

                          5) All the teachings of the Qur’an and the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) in absolute and unambiguous terms are true and acceptable.

                          When an individual accepts these fundamental beliefs of Islam from the depth of his heart, and rejects those beliefs of his former faith that contradict Islamic beliefs, then he will be considered a Muslim.

                          As far as the verbal acceptance is concerned, the majority (jumhur) of the scholars of Islamic creed (aqidah) are of the position that verbal confession is a condition in order for one to be called a Muslim in this world, and on which judgments are passed, such as: Marrying, inheriting, being buried in a Muslim graveyard, etc…

                          Since having a belief in the heart is a hidden thing that must have a sign, therefore, whosoever believes with his heart (tasdiq bil qalb) and does not confess with his tongue (iqrar bil lisan) is considered a believer with Allah Almighty, but not according to the judgments of this world (See: Sa’d al-Din al-Taftazani on the creed of Najm al-Din al-Nasafi, P. 190, Dar al-Bayruti, Damascus).

                          Therefore, if you are convinced of the basic and essential beliefs of Islam, then you are already considered a believer according to Allah Almighty. However, for you to be considered a believer in this world, you must confess and express your beliefs by saying the Shahadah.

                          Conversion to Islam is very simple and has no particular procedure, like baptism, etc. It is not necessary that one seeks the mediation of a saint or priest, nor is it a pre-requisite to go to a mosque or to an institution for accepting Islam. One can accept Islam on his own. However, it is advisable to go to a learned Muslim (preferably a scholar) who can inform you about the basic beliefs of Islam and can teach you the concise and comprehensive words to express the acceptance of those beliefs.

                          Normally the following sentences are used for that purpose:

                          "I bear witness that there is no God but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad, (Allah bless him & give peace), is His servant and messenger."

                          "I have believed in Allah and His angels and His book (as they were originally revealed on His prophets) and in His messengers and in the Last Day and in the fact that all the good and bad destinies come from Allah and in being raised alive after death."

                          Therefore, you must hasten towards verbally accepting Islam. There are no conditions or pre-requisites for accepting Islam. This is the religion (deen) chosen by the Almighty, and is the only religion which will save one from eternal punishment in the Hereafter. Therefore, go ahead and convert to Islam at once, without any delay, hesitation or thoughts about the practical side of Islam.

                          Allah Most High says:

                          “The Religion by Allah is Islam” (Qur'an 3:19).

                          In another verse of the Holy Qur'an, Allah states:

                          “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, Never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost” ( Qur'an 3:85).

                          Circumcision:

                          As far as circumcision for males is concerned, it is a highly emphasised way of the Messenger of Allah (Sunnah Mu’akkadah) and one of the salient features of Islam (sha’air).

                          The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace) said: “The practices related to Fitrah(natural human ways) are five: Circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and removing the hair of the underarm” ( Sahihal-Bukhari)

                          He (Allah bless him & give him peace) also said: “Circumcision is Sunnah for men and a source of pleasure (in sexual intercourse) by performing it on women” (Recorded by Imam Ahmad in his Musnad and Imam al-Bayhaqi in his Sunan with a weak chain of narrators, from Radd al-Muhtar).

                          In the light of the above, newborn males should be circumcised before the child has attained puberty. Failing to do so will amount in leaving out a salient feature of Islam.

                          Regarding a male who accepts Islam and is above the age of puberty, or a child who was not circumcised for some reason until he reached puberty, then this has three possibilities:

                          1) If the male is able to endure the act of circumcision and there is no fear of harm being afflicted on him, and also it is done by oneself as not to expose the Awra in front of another person, then circumcision should be carried out.

                          2) If one is able to bear and endure without the fear of harm, but at the same time it will mean exposing ones Awra in front of another person, then there is a difference of opinion between the scholars on whether circumcision should be carried out.

                          On one hand, we have the order of not exposing your Awra in front of other people except in dire situations, but on the other hand, we have this great salient feature of Islam. Some of the contemporary scholars have said that in this situation circumcision should be carried out for two reasons:

                          a) Circumcision is a form of treatment, and the Fuqaha have given a dispensation in exposing the Awra for treatment and medication.

                          b) The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is reported to have said: “Whoever accepts Islam should have his circumcision performed” (Talkhisal-Habir). In the light of the above narration, the scholars have said that if there is no fear of harm and the adult male is able to bear circumcision, then it should be carried out.

                          3) The third situation is where the grown up male is not in a position to tolerate or bear the pain of circumcision, or there is fear of harm being inflicted on him, then circumcision can be (and should be) avoided.

                          Islam is a religion of mercy and orders only that which is within the capacity and capability of an individual. It never commands that which is beyond ones capacity.

                          Allah Most High says:

                          “On no soul does Allah place a burden greater than it can bear” (Qur’an, 2:286).

                          The great Hanafi jurist, Imam al-Haskafi (may Allah have mercy on him) states:

                          “If an old person entered Islam, and (medical) experts were of the view that he won’t be able to bear it, then circumcision should not be carried out” (Durr al-Mukhtar).

                          One of the great Hadith experts (hafidh), Ibn Hajr al-Asqalani (Allah have mercy on him) says:

                          “If the child attained puberty, and he is weak to an extent that if circumcision was carried out on him, he will perish, then the necessity of circumcision will no longer remain” (Fath al-Bari, 10/289).

                          Another Hadith expert and Hanafi scholar, Imam al-Kashmiri (Allah have mercy on him) states in his commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari:

                          “I don’t recommend circumcision for those that have reached puberty, as it is very painful and could lead to death” (Faydh al-Bari, 4/413).

                          However, it should be remembered here, that he who opts not to be circumcised should regularly clean the area underneath the foreskin of his sex organ because, in Islam cleanliness of the body is obligatory for performing prayers.

                          In conclusion, you must not delay accepting Islam any longer. Explain to the people in your area that in the light of some of the above evidences, it is not required for a grown up person to be circumcised when it is painful for him. Enter this great religion of Allah and you will never be disappointed. May Allah guide to the straight path and keep us all steadfast on it (Ameen).

                          And Allah knows best

                          Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari, UK
                          www.marifah.info

                          Wahhabis Refuted
                          Ash'aris

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            RE: Female circumcision
                            Answered by Sidi Faraz Rabbani



                            Q. I have a Question regarding female circumcision in Hanafi fiqh. I've heard from several sources that this is wajib according to Shafi'i fiqh, while according to Hanafi fiqh the decision lies in the hands of the husband. Can you shed some light on this and give the legal proofs for this ruling?!






                            A.Walaikum assalam,

                            That which is wajib in the Shafi`i texts is merely slight 'trimming' of the tip of the ****oris. It is neither excision nor FGM, nor anything else harmful to the woman or her ability to derive sexual pleasure. This is what the Hanafis considered an 'token' for the husband. It is not recommended per se.

                            As for excision, FGM, or other harmful practices, which have become culturally widespread, none of these are in any way permitted. This is why the scholars generally say that the proper practice is almost a lost art.

                            And Allah alone gives success.

                            Wassalam,
                            Faraz Rabbani

                            www.sunnipath.com
                            www.marifah.info

                            Wahhabis Refuted
                            Ash'aris

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by ponderingstar
                              because dear amal, he is trying to blur the lines between FGM (a very horrific process of mutilation) and circumcision (something all muslims and jewish men undergo yet have no negative sideaffects) This makes me angry because it prevents things being done about the former when people LATCH onto the latter. (A little how they pass certains bills in america, by attaching a silly little corrupt one to a very important big one).... and this makes me very angry too.
                              We are here to discuss. May be is a doctor. Let him to have his own idea because for sure he either will not run after your children to avoid to circumcise them.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                "I said I accepted the distinction to avoid additional argument. Mutilating genitals, for whatever reason, what ever the justification is mutilation.

                                Doing this to people without their consent is disgraceful, and in Islam completely unnecessary. "

                                but what do you care? as i maintain it is none of your concern.

                                "That is your assumption. The evidence suggests that FGM in Africa is a cultural practice which is done by people practicing many different faiths."

                                As i said before lets make a deal, you leave my way of life alone and i leave theirs alone.

                                "male genital mutilation"

                                Unless you mean castration, there's no such thing.

                                "That some people try to defend the practice in the name of their faith, "

                                I gave you the example of an african tribe taking blood form a babies finger. you chose to ignore it, It is not about faith it is about way of life. AMAZING how you choose to ignore all the rational parts of my argument so that you can continue with your pride intact. you should become a politician.

                                "especially when their faith does not require this to be done while the person is too young to give consent is wrong."

                                well how abuot we stop giving babys certain immunisations befrore they are too young to make a decision eh? Since some of them are even known to cause harm now and since they do pierce the skin, which must hurt the child, against the childs wishes, how about we ban all immunisations of all diseases? How about we make it illegal (punishable) for girls to get their ears pierced before they are 18? I had my ears peirced at the age of five. i am glad i did because i can't really remember it. but who am i to jusge that when you obviously know oh so much better sir!

                                "If you are suggesting that men might be reluctant to accept Islam if they faced being circumcised then that is up to you. I would have thought that a faith as strong as Islam would still be able to attract equally large numbers of men even with the prospect of being circumcised."

                                no men would not be reluctant. i would imagine men would want to even though it would not be fard. but the many who would want to would not want to go to the expense or pain. i am sure they woudl say to themselves "oh my stupid dumb parenst listening to those people with their white mans burden complex, i wish they had circumcised me when i was a baby aged seven days old" until you can build a time machine i'm afraid you can get lost.

                                "You demand the right to cut off part of their sex organs as an act of their faith, before they have even had the chance to decided for themselves if they want to practice that faith in the first place (as required by Islamic law) ?"

                                Yes i do and thank be to Allah that someone as pathetic as you does not have the power to take that right away from me. and for the FINAL TIME i am not touching their sex organs, it is called foreskin, it is skin, it in not sex organs. you are obviously not a doctor. my brother is a doctor and he is far more intelligent than you in reasoning, far kinder than you in heart and far more accepting than you in character.

                                you are a man with dreams of colonial power and Thank God that the time of british colonial rule is over and that we do not have to bow down to the toffs and accept such stupid reasoning as logical.

                                and i know see you are not just arrogant but you are sneaky. please stop ignoring the best parts of my posts and just responding to the bits you find easy. Indeed the life of a politician would be well suited to you. conservative party i say. failing that the BNP.
                                Please Re-update your Signature

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