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Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

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  • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

    Originally posted by Guled View Post
    are you sure it is ok for you maybe you should wait a couple of years, what do you think ?
    Dude seriously, people talk about this kinda stuff casually at school, I think I can handle this.

    But anyways, do you have any evidence that it was ever practiced on women in the times of Muhammed (PBUH)? Or are you just assuming that because Muhammed (PBUH) mentioned circumcision he also meant female 'circumcision' ? Was it even practiced by the arabs in the times of Muhammed (PBUH)?

    Comment


    • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

      Originally posted by _Ruby_ View Post
      but in 'the west' these procedures are done once a woman is fully grown and developed.

      A little girl walking into a western plastic surgeon's clinic and asking for some lady parts modified would meet evoke much the same argument from the WHO.

      Also 'acceptable' is not really a word i would use for genital plastic surgery.
      The problem with that statement is that consent is not seen as an important factor when it comes to male children getting circumcised but for girls another rule applies question is why? why does WHO not react or even call any type of male circumcision as a form of muitilation and a violation against men's right ? The procedures vary and therefore their effects would not be the same, what i am talking about is modifications made to the female genitalia. This include a whole variety of things eg removal or shortening of some parts of female genitalia and this is different to plastic surgery. These modification are actually done for cosmetic reasons meaning they are done to improve the appearance of the genitalia and that is why society at large sees it as an acceptable norm just like a nosejob, breast agumentation etc. Even though a minority might object to it, it will nonetheless be tolerated and as long as the demand exists for such surgeries the industry will continue to grow. If you take alook at the definition given by WHO these FGCS( female genitial cosmetic surgery) fit the description of FGM but since they are tolerated by western countries no fuss is made, but the suddenly a problem arises when the same type of procedures are done for different reasons under a different name "female circumcision" in non-western nations . Again why does WHO condemn only non-western nations but turn a blind eye to western nations ? What kind of answer would be given for a contradiction as this one ? So when western nations condemn FGM they condemn it when it is about africans etc, isn't this discrimination based along racial lines ?
      "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
      those that are apparent and those that are hidden

      Comment


      • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

        Originally posted by Faissaloo View Post
        Dude seriously, people talk about this kinda stuff casually at school, I think I can handle this.

        But anyways, do you have any evidence that it was ever practiced on women in the times of Muhammed (PBUH)? Or are you just assuming that because Muhammed (PBUH) mentioned circumcision he also meant female 'circumcision' ? Was it even practiced by the arabs in the times of Muhammed (PBUH)?
        The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

        This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.

        2-

        Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

        The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.

        source: http://islamqa.info/en/60314

        The second hadith of prophet ((peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) clearly shows that circumcision was done for both men and women during his time. hope this answers your questions

        Maybe you can put to use some of what i post here to good use by raising the awareness of this contradiction
        "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
        those that are apparent and those that are hidden

        Comment


        • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

          Originally posted by Guled View Post
          The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

          This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.

          2-

          Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

          The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.

          source: http://islamqa.info/en/60314

          The second hadith of prophet ((peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) clearly shows that circumcision was done for both men and women during his time. hope this answers your questions

          Maybe you can put to use some of what i post here to good use by raising the awareness of this contradiction
          Hmm... Didn't know about the plucking my armpit hairs thing... But I think you raise an interesting point... So you're against FGM though but are ok with FGC?

          Edit: I've taken a look at the fatwa my scholar has issued and he said it's not obligatory ( "whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world." ) and is haram if it harms the female in any way.
          Last edited by Faissaloo; 23-09-14, 08:19 PM.

          Comment


          • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

            Originally posted by Faissaloo View Post
            Hmm... Didn't know about the plucking my armpit hairs thing... But I think you raise an interesting point... So you're against FGM though but are ok with FGC?
            Brother i think we should stop using terms that others have defined based on their perceptions of what they think is right and wrong, because sooner or later we become pawns to them if we let them define what should and shouldn't be right for us. We should stick to the way things are defined according to the quran and sunnah and use them as a reference point as this is much safer. WHO divides FGM into the following 4 categories

            Type I — Partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or the prepuce (clitoridectomy).
            When it is important to distinguish between the major variations of Type I mutilation, the following subdivisions are proposed: Type Ia, removal of the clitoral hood or prepuce only; Type Ib, removal of the clitoris with the prepuce.


            Type II — Partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (excision).
            When it is important to distinguish between the major variations that have been documented, the following subdivisions are proposed: Type IIa, removal of the labia minora only; Type IIb, partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora; Type IIc, partial or total removal of the clitoris, the labia minora and the labia majora.
            Note also that, in French, the term ‘excision’ is often used as a general term covering all types of female genital mutilation.

            Type III — Narrowing of the vaginal orifice with creation of a covering seal by cutting and appositioning the labia minora and/or the labia majora, with or without excision of the clitoris (infibulation).
            Type IIIa, removal and apposition of the labia minora; Type IIIb, removal and apposition of the labia majora.

            Type IV — All other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, for example: pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterization.
            From the above categoriazation female circumcision as prescribed in islam falls under category Type 1 and for a muslim to be against FGM would mean that he or she will be against a practice ordained in islam. FGC is just another term for FGM they use the former so as not to arouse backlash from the communities they tend to work with. If they only focused on eliminating the extreme forms of it then should we as muslims cooperate with them but since they are bent on eradicating female circumcision as the way it is prescribed then i see no purpose of cooperating and supporting them as they are fighting us because of our religion, trying to force us to accept their ideological stand as being the right one. I hope i've made my point clear enough with regards to where i stand on the issue
            "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
            those that are apparent and those that are hidden

            Comment


            • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

              Originally posted by Faissaloo View Post
              Hmm... Didn't know about the plucking my armpit hairs thing... But I think you raise an interesting point... So you're against FGM though but are ok with FGC?

              Edit: I've taken a look at the fatwa my scholar has issued and he said it's not obligatory ( "whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world." ) and is haram if it harms the female in any way.
              Like i said in some posts above, the scholars were in agreement that it is prescribed in islam but they differed concerning the ruling, some say it is obligatory, others said it is mustahab, and some said it is sunnah. All of this are valid differences and i think that as long as a muslim follows any one of these opinions it should more than enough but to say it is forbidden in islam is a grave error. Brother if it is done according to the manner that is prescribed in islam i don't think any problems will arise. Such problems arise when people start to carry out extreme forms of circumcision.
              "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
              those that are apparent and those that are hidden

              Comment


              • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

                Originally posted by Guled View Post
                The problem with that statement is that consent is not seen as an important factor when it comes to male children getting circumcised but for girls another rule applies question is why? why does WHO not react or even call any type of male circumcision as a form of muitilation and a violation against men's right ?
                I think the distinct difference would be 3 fold:
                1) male circumcision is usually done under supervised medical conditions and i am sure the WHO would strongly discourage any type of male circumcision that takes place in a non medical setting (like those that take place in parts of the world)
                2) there is a small 'health benefit' to male circumcision.
                3) male circumcision doesn't have varying degrees. If male circumcision was on a spectrum between removal-of-foreskin and cutting-the-whole-thing-off, they would probably take a much stronger stance.


                Originally posted by Guled View Post
                i am talking about is modifications made to the female genitalia. This include a whole variety of things eg removal or shortening of some parts of female genitalia and this is different to plastic surgery. These modification are actually done for cosmetic reasons meaning they are done to improve the appearance of the genitalia and that is why society at large sees it as an acceptable norm just like a nosejob, breast agumentation etc. Even though a minority might object to it, it will nonetheless be tolerated and as long as the demand exists for such surgeries the industry will continue to grow. If you take alook at the definition given by WHO these FGCS( female genitial cosmetic surgery) fit the description of FGM but since they are tolerated by western countries no fuss is made, but the suddenly a problem arises when the same type of procedures are done for different reasons under a different name "female circumcision" in non-western nations . Again why does WHO condemn only non-western nations but turn a blind eye to western nations ? What kind of answer would be given for a contradiction as this one ? So when western nations condemn FGM they condemn it when it is about africans etc, isn't this discrimination based along racial lines ?
                Well, being someone who has personal experience of the western version of such a surgery i feel the distinct difference lies in a few different areas:

                1) grown women can make decisions on their genitalia, children cannot.
                2) grown women also know what their fully developed genitalia look like, children are still developing. How we can determine something is 'too big' in a child is at best, a guess.
                3) surgery for aesthetic reasons do not get lumped together with requests for sewing up the opening, removing the labia majora etc.
                4) associations with sexual purity make people uncomfortable.
                5) genital plastic surgery in the west isnt currently associated with major health risks, whereas FGM is.

                I think the WHO's concern lies in reasons 3, 4 and 5. Reasons 1 and 2 apply to male circumcision also, but they tend to get over-ridden because the effects in men are not as severe as they may be on women. It does make some kind of sense that the loss of a foreskin may rank lower on their list of priorities compared to inability to urinate properly, repeated infection, infertility, complete loss of sexual pleasure, raised risk of death during childbirth etc.

                Comment


                • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

                  Originally posted by _Ruby_ View Post
                  I think the distinct difference would be 3 fold:
                  1) male circumcision is usually done under supervised medical conditions and i am sure the WHO would strongly discourage any type of male circumcision that takes place in a non medical setting (like those that take place in parts of the world)
                  2) there is a small 'health benefit' to male circumcision.
                  3) male circumcision doesn't have varying degrees. If male circumcision was on a spectrum between removal-of-foreskin and cutting-the-whole-thing-off, they would probably take a much stronger stance..
                  1) This point is only valid when you presuppose or assume that only male circumcision is carried out in a medical setting. In a western nation both male and female circumcision would happen in a medical setting. So if you are assuming that in a non-western nation only boys get preferentially treatment well you are mistaken as both of them are carried out the same setting be it in a non-medical or medical setting.

                  2) The same can be said about female circumcision and i believe the reason why focus is given more to the male side is due to cultural bias as female circumcision has already been deemd "barbaric, harmful" etc who in their right mind will try to go against the tide and claim that there might be some benefits to it.

                  3) There are different types of male circumcision and as of recent there are groups claiming any type of male circumcision is a muitilation, they have a name for it MGM Male genitial muitilation and here is how they define MGM

                  Male genital mutilation (MGM), often referred to as 'male circumcision', comprises all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external male genitalia or other injury to the male genital organs whether for cultural, religious or other non-therapeutic reasons. There are different types of male genital mutilation known to be practiced today. They include:
                  • Type I - excision or injury of part or all of the skin and specialized mucosal tissues of the penis including the prepuce and frenulum (circumcision, dorsal slit without closure).
                  • Type II - excision or injury to the glans (glandectomy) and/or penis shaft, (penectomy) along with Type I MGM. Any procedure that interferes with reproductive or sexual function in the adult male.
                  • Type III - excision or destruction of the testes (castration, orchidectomy) with or without Type II MGM.
                  • Type IV - unclassified: includes pricking, piercing or incision of the prepuce, glans, scrotum or other genital tissue; cutting and suturing of the prepuce over the glans (infibulation); slitting open the urethra along the ventral surface of the penis (subincision); slitting open the foreskin along its dorsal surface (superincision); severing the frenulum; stripping the skin from the shaft of the penis; introducing corrosive or scalding substances onto the genital area; any other procedure which falls under the definition of MGM given above.
                  The most common type of male genital mutilation is excision of the foreskin (circumcision), accounting for the vast majority of all cases; the most extreme form is excision or destruction of the testes (castration), which constitutes a small percentage of all procedures.
                  The only difference between them and WHO is that WHO has got more influence and they get to to decide what should be the standard internationally.

                  Well, being someone who has personal experience of the western version of such a surgery i feel the distinct difference lies in a few different areas:

                  1) grown women can make decisions on their genitalia, children cannot.
                  2) grown women also know what their fully developed genitalia look like, children are still developing. How we can determine something is 'too big' in a child is at best, a guess.
                  3) surgery for aesthetic reasons do not get lumped together with requests for sewing up the opening, removing the labia majora etc.
                  4) associations with sexual purity make people uncomfortable.
                  5) genital plastic surgery in the west isnt currently associated with major health risks, whereas FGM is.

                  I think the WHO's concern lies in reasons 3, 4 and 5. Reasons 1 and 2 apply to male circumcision also, but they tend to get over-ridden because the effects in men are not as severe as they may be on women. It does make some kind of sense that the loss of a foreskin may rank lower on their list of priorities compared to inability to urinate properly, repeated infection, infertility, complete loss of sexual pleasure, raised risk of death during childbirth etc
                  1) Grown men can make decision on their genitalia as well children can not
                  2)Grown men also know what their fully developed genitalia look like, children are still developing
                  3) It doesn't matter as FGCS covers a broad range of procedures that are offered to women in western countries

                  I could go on but i feel as though you are not understanding how much similar FGCS and FGM are when one considers the anatomy that is removed, because the modifications made to the genitalia are the same and it does not matter whether it was done in a medical setting or not. Consider this example lets say a person in country A gets his arm amputated under a medical setting and another person in country B undergoes the same procedure but not in medical setting. The difference would be one got amputated with anaesthesia etc but with regards to anatomy there would be no difference between the two procedures as both of them result in lose of an arm. FGCS and FGM are 2 sides of the same coin as both lead to some part of genitalia being either changed or removed. Now picture this the same procedures are performed in 2 different countries but for 2 different reasons but only one of them gets condemned this what WHO is doing.

                  You also have this misconception that all types of FGM have major health risks a belief that is not true only the extreme forms of FGM have major health risks and one can not simple use the evidence for these extreme forms and make it a general rule to ban the none lethal forms of FGM. This is what happens in the media and majority of the people are led into thinking that all forms are bad and risky. So if it risky and has major health risks why does it continue in the west and condemned in non-western nations

                  below is a quote from the paper that i linked to at my first post.

                  [QUOTE]On the other hand, if there can be serious consequences for sexual pleasure from cutting away the external female genitals then surgical excision practices among European women also need to be challenged on those grounds.[/QUOTE]

                  The above statement summarises the problem with FGCS because just like FGM the cutting and surgical excision that are done to female genitalia are the same if one focuses on the anatomy that is removed, eg a woman decides to undergo FGCS in usa so that she can have the prepuce of the clitoris removed but the same is done to a woman/girl lets say somalia , do you think there is a difference between what is removed ? if not why is one termed as being a muitilation while the other is not , this is my question i hope that it is clear enough ?

                  Some may say that female genital cutting and genital cosmetic surgery are not comparable procedures, primarily based on the fact that the one is performed on consenting adult women,while the vast majority of the other are performed on girl children and infants with no regard for their wishes. In addition, many instances of female genital cutting are performed under unsanitary conditions while genital cosmetic surgery is about precision work in high-technology environments. But if we disregard context and only focus on what in the anatomy is removed, the modifications are indeed comparable
                  "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
                  those that are apparent and those that are hidden

                  Comment


                  • Re: Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

                    Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
                    here we go again

                    just because muslim parents decide to circucize their daughters, does not mean, its genital mutilation

                    genital mutilation is genital mutilation

                    vaginal circumcision is vaginal circumscison
                    You would not agree with this if you were a woman. Basically there is no justification for female "circumcision" in the Quran. The purpose of male circumcision is very well known, but what purpose does female circumcision serve? It serves to harm the woman, in favor a cultural ideal that is not Islamic.... Would not Allah have commanded it if he saw a need to manipulate a girls body? Would he not have revealed it to the prophet?

                    Comment


                    • Re: Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

                      OMG at this title. Leave females genitals alone. It is against human rights. They are not cake for you be slicing them up. It's a way of controlling women. It has nothing to do with Islam. It has ruined many lives. A lot of women can't enjoy sex which Allah swt gave us to enjoy within the confines of marriage because of this horrible and barbaric practice. Leave the vaginas and genitals alone!!!! :@ :@ :@

                      Female circumcision, mutilation whatever same thing...

                      Even 'minor' forms have consequences. Men that agree with this make me feel sick. Talk to a survivor. You'll see how it has affected her!!


                      Why is this thread even open? I can't believe it. Ummah Forum seriously? :/


                      Interestingly, the other day my dad was like back in his days when he was getting married , guys were saying we don't want a woman that has been cut. I didn't know that. Shows that men want women to enjoy sex and that it's the women leading this practice.
                      [FONT=Century Gothic][COLOR="#0066ff"][SIZE=4] We're all a little broken in our own little way and the last time I checked, broken crayons still colour the same...[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

                      Comment


                      • Re: Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

                        Originally posted by Rebekah1991 View Post
                        You would not agree with this if you were a woman. Basically there is no justification for female "circumcision" in the Quran. The purpose of male circumcision is very well known, but what purpose does female circumcision serve? It serves to harm the woman, in favor a cultural ideal that is not Islamic.... Would not Allah have commanded it if he saw a need to manipulate a girls body? Would he not have revealed it to the prophet?

                        Don't bother. These people are truly lost. Most of them are men as well which isn't surprising. They think it's the same as male circumcision. :/ And they think female circumcision is different to female genital mutilation lool.
                        [FONT=Century Gothic][COLOR="#0066ff"][SIZE=4] We're all a little broken in our own little way and the last time I checked, broken crayons still colour the same...[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

                        Comment


                        • Re: What is the point of female circumcision?

                          Originally posted by LondonGal View Post
                          Spot on.

                          And in regards to current practises of female circumcision. It's usually the part/entire clitoris which is being removed. This is pretty much where all the pleasure lies.

                          The current male and female circumcision can not be compared at all.
                          This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's got a ridiculous amount of nerve endings. I think it's the most sensitive part of the genitalia.
                          [FONT=Century Gothic][COLOR="#0066ff"][SIZE=4] We're all a little broken in our own little way and the last time I checked, broken crayons still colour the same...[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

                          Comment


                          • Re: Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

                            Originally posted by HopefulOne View Post
                            OMG at this title. Leave females genitals alone. It is against human rights. They are not cake for you be slicing them up. It's a way of controlling women. It has nothing to do with Islam. It has ruined many lives. A lot of women can't enjoy sex which Allah swt gave us to enjoy within the confines of marriage because of this horrible and barbaric practice. Leave the vaginas and genitals alone!!!! :@ :@ :@
                            Lolololololololol, what is this incredibly hilarious way of describing stuff.

                            I think you found your thread and here you can calm your anti-circumcision obsession.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

                              Originally posted by HopefulOne View Post
                              OMG at this title. Leave females genitals alone. It is against human rights. They are not cake for you be slicing them up. It's a way of controlling women. It has nothing to do with Islam. It has ruined many lives. A lot of women can't enjoy sex which Allah swt gave us to enjoy within the confines of marriage because of this horrible and barbaric practice. Leave the vaginas and genitals alone!!!! :@ :@ :@

                              Female circumcision, mutilation whatever same thing...

                              Even 'minor' forms have consequences. Men that agree with this make me feel sick. Talk to a survivor. You'll see how it has affected her!!


                              Why is this thread even open? I can't believe it. Ummah Forum seriously? :/


                              Interestingly, the other day my dad was like back in his days when he was getting married , guys were saying we don't want a woman that has been cut. I didn't know that. Shows that men want women to enjoy sex and that it's the women leading this practice.
                              You do know rasulAllah :saw: was the one to allow female to be circumcised?? Does He make you sick? :/ because its considered sunnah according to his hadith. Anyway, whether you agree with it or disagree, you should not say it has no basis in Islam, when it does, otherwise you will end up looking foolish when hadith is quoted. I personally wouldn't have it done on my daughters if Allah blesses me with some because I don't see the need.
                              Last edited by Rebel101; 17-11-14, 09:41 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

                                Originally posted by HopefulOne View Post
                                Don't bother. These people are truly lost. Most of them are men as well which isn't surprising. They think it's the same as male circumcision. :/ And they think female circumcision is different to female genital mutilation lool.
                                Why do you blame men for everything. gosh, i feel guilty sometimes just reading some of your comments.

                                Originally posted by Rebel101 View Post
                                You do know rasulAllah :saw: was the one to allow female to be circumcised?? Does He make you sick? :/ because its considered sunnah according to his hadith. Anyway, whether you agree with it or disagree, you should not say it has no basis in Islam, when it does, otherwise you will end up looking foolish when hadith is quoted. I personally wouldn't have it done on my daughters if Allah blesses me with some because I don't see the need.

                                Yeah, take that from your fellow sister hopelessone. Why are you so against it ? Its not like its made compulsory. If it is allowed and a woman wants to go ahead with it, why do you have a problem

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