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  • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

    i understand what you are saying i too couldnt understand this once,but the problem is in somalia they do this practice on young girls without medical equipment or pain relife and they do not follow the sunnah ,they only suppose to do this if the clit is very large and take a small amount ,however the problem is in somalia they extreme in cutting which is against the sunnah and they do this with the wrong intention ,what some do in Somalia is not islamic and it destorys the womens body,sex life and leaves mental scars ,also they putting her life in danger ,

    the FGCS are grown women in a medical enviroment with doctors and nurses doing it with their own free will

    female circumssion done the way of the sunnah yes

    the way its done in Somalia and other countries is barbaric and we should be educating them and trying to stop it
    Last edited by Revert08; 23-09-14, 09:28 AM.

    Comment


    • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

      From the article it states

      [QUOTE]But if we disregard context and only focus on what in the anatomy is removed, the modifications are indeed comparable[/QUOTE]

      to iwasjimmyjimmy:

      The reason why FGCS is not associated with "muitilation" in western countries is simply because it is viewed as an acceptable norm by the society at large even though it qualifies as muitilation under the definition given by WHO, but when it comes to lets say african countries a different standard is applied due to cultural bias etc. Countries that circumcise girls also circumcise boys and there is no special treatment for boys whereby they use anaesthetic for them only and neglect the girls, so if the ban was made for protection of children why do they only focus on girls only. These days people use anaesthetics and it is only in areas where people have no access to them that traditional anaesthetics are used this applies to both female and male circumcision. Even if no traditional anaesthesia was used no preferential treatment is given to boys as they too will be circumcised just like females. So again i ask why focus only on females ?

      Another double standard arises with regards to the issue of consent, as you all know male children are circumcised at a young age usually after birth but majority of people don't have a problem with it so why apply a different set of rules and requirements for girls? don't male children have a right to consent too ? if male children can be circumcised without consent why can't the same be done for girls ?

      Majority of FGCS procedures that are carried out are not done for medical benefits but that doesn't make it illegal, so why not limit it only for medically justified reasons and not open the option to anyone?

      To Revert08

      Sister in islam circumcision for boys is done at a young age too and it has been practiced for more than 1400yrs and as you know people used to perform circumcision on boys with or without traditional anaesthesia but never has any ulama even suggested that the practice be stopped simply because there was no acces to anaesthesia. In our modern times there are people who have no access to such modern anaesthesia but this doesn't stop them from circumcising their boys and no would any ulama put their circumcision onhold until they obtain such things. So my question to you would be why are you focusing on the age of girls when you have no problem with young boys being circumcisied ? is it due to cultural bias or ? i would really like to know

      As a somali i know for a fact that majority of somali women are circumcised and i am also aware that some somalis go to the extreme with regards to circumcising girls but these are a minority, and the media portrays it as if they were a majority but the solution is not to ban circumcision or try to stop it as this is something that is prescribed in islam. Currently there are anti-fgm campaigns in somalia whereby all type of circumcisions are refered to as "pharanoic circumcision" and the definition that is used is the one that has been defined by WHO. These feminists are trying to undermine any type of circumcision including the one prescribed in islam and their aim is eradicating all forms of it on our land. We have cases where somali women are actually brainwashed to believe that there is no basis for it in islam at all but don't you think it is hypocritical of them not to inform these somali women that in their countries FGCS/FGM is legal and a lucrative buisness. Shouldn't they first and foremost ban it completly in their countries before venturing into other countries and forcing their ideology on the local inhabitants ? On what basis do they condemn it in african countries while neglecting western nations ? Don't you think their condemnation is based on nothing but racism whereby they vilify africans as being barbarians and backward people.

      On one hand you acknowledge that some go to the extreme but then conclude by saying the way it is done in somalia and other countries is barbaric without differentiating those who actually follow the sunnah and those who go to the extreme. It would have been better had you said the way SOME somalis do it is totally unislamic and barbaric instead of generalising all somalis.


      Claims about the absence of sexual pleasure due to female genital cutting, a central tenet of anti-FGM campaigns, are increasingly being challenged.Two Egyptian studies have shown an increased risk of sexual dysfunction:statistically more cut women than uncut (ormildly cut) experienced lack of sexual desire anddifficulties in achieving orgasm. In contrast,studies that include women from Sudan and Somalia – countries where women go through the most extensive form of female genital cuttinoften called “pharaonic circumcision” –have led us to draw the conclusion that cut women have the same ability to feel pleasure and experience orgasm as is found among Western women who have not been cut. Carla Makhlouf Obermeyer concludes in an overview of studies on female genital cutting and sexuality that “the available evidence does not support the hypotheses that circumcision destroys sexual function or precludes enjoyment of sexual relations”. It is counter-intuitive that female genital cutting does not have adverse effects on ability to enjoy sex. But perhaps the absence of adverse effects is due to the fact that the clitoris does stretch far into the body;what is cut is part of the external clitoris, while the inner structure remains intact. Furthermore, sexuality as an activity has to do with more than anatomy; sexual gratification also involves social, cultural and psychological factors to a higher degree than is usually acknowledged. The brain has been said to be the most important sexual organ in female sexuality.Thus, the ability to enjoy sex and to reach orgasm is not only about whether part of the external female genitals have been cut or not.If sexual pleasure after female genital cutting can be preserved, the public discourse about grave loss of sexual pleasure as an inevitable consequence of female genital cutting needs to be reformulated. On the other hand, if there can be serious consequences for sexual pleasure from cutting away the external female genitals then surgical excision practices among European women also need to be challenged on those grounds.
      source: http://www.iscgmedia.com/uploads/6/0...dotter_cvs.pdf pg 34
      Last edited by Guled; 23-09-14, 02:10 PM.
      "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
      those that are apparent and those that are hidden

      Comment


      • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

        To Revert08

        Sister in islam circumcision for boys is done at a young age too and it has been practiced for more than 1400yrs and as you know people used to perform circumcision on boys with or without traditional anaesthesia but never has any ulama even suggested that the practice be stopped simply because there was no acces to anaesthesia. In our modern times there are people who have no access to such modern anaesthesia but this doesn't stop them from circumcising their boys and no would any ulama put their circumcision onhold until they obtain such things. So my question to you would be why are you focusing on the age of girls when you have no problem with young boys being circumcisied ? is it due to cultural bias or ? i would really like to know

        As a somali i know for a fact that majority of somali women are circumcised and i am also aware that some somalis go to the extreme with regards to circumcising girls but these are a minority, and the media portrays it as if they were a majority but the solution is not to ban circumcision or try to stop it as this is something that is prescribed in islam. Currently there are anti-fgm campaigns in somalia whereby all type of circumcisions are refered to as "pharanoic circumcision" and the definition that is used is the one that has been defined by WHO. These feminists are trying to undermine any type of circumcision including the one prescribed in islam and their aim is eradicating all forms of it on our land. We have cases where somali women are actually brainwashed to believe that there is no basis for it in islam at all but don't you think it is hypocritical of them not to inform these somali women that in their countries FGCS/FGM is legal and a lucrative buisness. Shouldn't they first and foremost ban it completly in their countries before venturing into other countries and forcing their ideology on the local inhabitants ? On what basis do they condemn it in african countries while neglecting western nations ? Don't you think their condemnation is based on nothing but racism whereby they vilify africans as being barbarians and backward people.

        On one hand you acknowledge that some go to the extreme but then conclude by saying the way it is done in somalia and other countries is barbaric without differentiating those who actually follow the sunnah and those who go to the extreme. It would have been better had you said the way SOME somalis do it is totally unislamic and barbaric instead of generalising all somalis.



        source: http://www.iscgmedia.com/uploads/6/0...dotter_cvs.pdf pg 34[/QUOTE]

        brother i totally understand what you are saying and yes i admit i made a mistake to not say SOME somalis ,i promise you i am not generlizing my husband is Somali ,and i do agree their is double standards and your correct males get circumcised young without their consent, i did it to my own son ,but i think its because how its done by some people which gives it a bad name ,when they sew up the whole vagina and remove everything, they have gone way beyond the sunnah and the communities need to educate those people doing it WRONGLY ,yes they would be hypocities to stop female circumcision but FGM needs to stop .

        i have herd of more awful things what happens to girls who have gone through FGM from my somali sis inlaws and its wrong ,even my father inlaw who is 70 years old and lived in somalia said they uneducated and doing it wrong ,he said the sunnah is to remove a small bit, IF its too large (as in hot countries its common to be larger ) and he told me some somalis doing it wrongly to try control the women from wanting sex and sleeping around

        i think people just need to educate these people who are doing FGM how to do it correctly and maybe have a law where only trainned people who do it according to sunnah should do it, and make a strict ban and punishment on those who go to the extremes
        Last edited by Revert08; 23-09-14, 02:25 PM.

        Comment


        • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

          There's a difference between an adult woman going to a clinic by her own choice, with complete understanding of the procedure and all the possible effects and having a professional surgeon beautify her down there with modern equipment and everything and having a bunch of (for a lack of better term) savages cut you around just so that some day when you grow up (or not, child marriages are unfortunately a thing) your male master will enjoy you more.

          Comment


          • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

            Originally posted by Guled View Post
            From the article it states

            [QUOTE]But if we disregard context and only focus on what in the anatomy is removed, the modifications are indeed comparable

            to iwasjimmyjimmy:

            The reason why FGCS is not associated with "muitilation" in western countries is simply because it is viewed as an acceptable norm by the society at large even though it qualifies as muitilation under the definition given by WHO, but when it comes to lets say african countries a different standard is applied due to cultural bias etc. Countries that circumcise girls also circumcise boys and there is no special treatment for boys whereby they use anaesthetic for them only and neglect the girls, so if the ban was made for protection of children why do they only focus on girls only. These days people use anaesthetics and it is only in areas where people have no access to them that traditional anaesthetics are used this applies to both female and male circumcision. Even if no traditional anaesthesia was used no preferential treatment is given to boys as they too will be circumcised just like females. So again i ask why focus only on females ?

            Another double standard arises with regards to the issue of consent, as you all know male children are circumcised at a young age usually after birth but majority of people don't have a problem with it so why apply a different set of rules and requirements for girls? don't male children have a right to consent too ? if male children can be circumcised without consent why can't the same be done for girls ?

            Majority of FGCS procedures that are carried out are not done for medical benefits but that doesn't make it illegal, so why not limit it only for medically justified reasons and not open the option to anyone?
            Well the reason that FGM is focussed on, is because most of the activists driving this are feminist, and frankly, feminists have a track record of not giving two hoots about men.

            I see male circumcision as mutilation also. Cutting away part of a new born baby's body is seen by many as a form of child abuse, and the way things are going in the west, I wouldn't be surprised if circumcision was outlawed soon just like FGM.

            I don't accept any of this cultural bias nonsense. The west should not make laws in Africa, but there is nothing to stop them trying to persuade the Africans to change their ways, and support the locals who want it stopped.

            You take a survey of the average person on the street in the UK and see if they approve of male circumcision..... I have been through all the arguments about supposed health benefits more than once.

            Comment


            • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

              Originally posted by Faissaloo View Post
              I don't get it... What's your point?
              The point i was trying to make is that in western nations modifications to the female genitalia is seen as something normal and acceptable even though they are regarded as muitilations if one uses the definition given by WHO which is that

              all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons
              Majority of these procedures are not performed due to medical neccessity but somehow they are not seen as "muitilations" in these countries but if the same procedure was done in an african country then it is automatically classified as a muitilation.
              "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
              those that are apparent and those that are hidden

              Comment


              • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

                my sis inlaws all had it done the way of the sunnah and alhamdulillah they are fine,happy and healthy and have a happy marriage Alhamdulillah

                but i think more needs to be done to stop those who go beyond the sunnah insha Allah

                Comment


                • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

                  Originally posted by Revert08 View Post
                  To Revert08

                  Sister in islam circumcision for boys is done at a young age too and it has been practiced for more than 1400yrs and as you know people used to perform circumcision on boys with or without traditional anaesthesia but never has any ulama even suggested that the practice be stopped simply because there was no acces to anaesthesia. In our modern times there are people who have no access to such modern anaesthesia but this doesn't stop them from circumcising their boys and no would any ulama put their circumcision onhold until they obtain such things. So my question to you would be why are you focusing on the age of girls when you have no problem with young boys being circumcisied ? is it due to cultural bias or ? i would really like to know

                  As a somali i know for a fact that majority of somali women are circumcised and i am also aware that some somalis go to the extreme with regards to circumcising girls but these are a minority, and the media portrays it as if they were a majority but the solution is not to ban circumcision or try to stop it as this is something that is prescribed in islam. Currently there are anti-fgm campaigns in somalia whereby all type of circumcisions are refered to as "pharanoic circumcision" and the definition that is used is the one that has been defined by WHO. These feminists are trying to undermine any type of circumcision including the one prescribed in islam and their aim is eradicating all forms of it on our land. We have cases where somali women are actually brainwashed to believe that there is no basis for it in islam at all but don't you think it is hypocritical of them not to inform these somali women that in their countries FGCS/FGM is legal and a lucrative buisness. Shouldn't they first and foremost ban it completly in their countries before venturing into other countries and forcing their ideology on the local inhabitants ? On what basis do they condemn it in african countries while neglecting western nations ? Don't you think their condemnation is based on nothing but racism whereby they vilify africans as being barbarians and backward people.

                  On one hand you acknowledge that some go to the extreme but then conclude by saying the way it is done in somalia and other countries is barbaric without differentiating those who actually follow the sunnah and those who go to the extreme. It would have been better had you said the way SOME somalis do it is totally unislamic and barbaric instead of generalising all somalis.



                  source: http://www.iscgmedia.com/uploads/6/0...dotter_cvs.pdf pg 34
                  brother i totally understand what you are saying and yes i admit i made a mistake to not say SOME somalis ,i promise you i am not generlizing my husband is Somali ,and i do agree their is double standards and your correct males get circumcised young without their consent, i did it to my own son ,but i think its because how its done by some people which gives it a bad name ,when they sew up the whole vagina and remove everything, they have gone way beyond the sunnah and the communities need to educate those people doing it WRONGLY ,yes they would be hypocities to stop female circumcision but FGM needs to stop .

                  i have herd of more awful things what happens to girls who have gone through FGM from my somali sis inlaws and its wrong ,even my father inlaw who is 70 years old and lived in somalia said they uneducated and doing it wrong ,he said the sunnah is to remove a small bit, IF its too large (as in hot countries its common to be larger ) and he told me some somalis doing it wrongly to try control the women from wanting sex and sleeping around

                  i think people just need to educate these people who are doing FGM how to do it correctly and maybe have a law where only trainned people who do it according to sunnah should do it, and make a strict ban and punishment on those who go to the extremes
                  [/QUOTE]

                  I agree with you wholeheartedly but i think you are still making a small mistake with regards to what is meant by FGM as it covers everything from the most extensive procedures, such as infibulation, to the mildest of only “pricking” the genitals to draw a drop of blood. Included in this definition is the sunnah circumcision so when you say FGM needs to stop you are including the sunnah one to, which is something i believe you don't agree with and that is why i think it is better to understand the issue at hand properly. I know this is something that comes as shocking especially to muslims who live in countries where such a practice is uncommon. Sister can you believe me if i told that there are entire tribes in somalia who are unfamiliar with pharanoic circumcision as this is something completely alien to them. The only way i see this practice ending is if an islamic government comes to power as they will have the power to do so but until then the problem will persist. The current government has actually banned female circumcision but they can not enforce it as they are too weak and face a strong opposition from both society at large and from the ulama.
                  "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
                  those that are apparent and those that are hidden

                  Comment


                  • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

                    But the problem with them trying to persuade african government is not something that is achieved directly as they have to undermine these governments so it is more like forcing them to comply with their demands as african countries are economically tied to western nations, catch the drift. In the event they ban this practice it is not as a result of the majority of the populace wanting it but due to coerction from western nations & NGO's I have to be frank and say that i am not eniterly convinced with the medical benefits behind circumcision but this not the reason why i support circumcision. I support it as it is a practice that is ordained in our religion and as a muslim i submit completely to the commandments of Allah and His messenger Muhammed (peace be upon him). This is the primary reason why i support circumcision for both males and females all other reasons are secondary and not as important for me. Hope this clears my view on circumcision.
                    "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
                    those that are apparent and those that are hidden

                    Comment


                    • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

                      Originally posted by Guled View Post
                      But the problem with them trying to persuade african government is not something that is achieved directly as they have to undermine these governments so it is more like forcing them to comply with their demands as african countries are economically tied to western nations, catch the drift. In the event they ban this practice it is not as a result of the majority of the populace wanting it but due to coerction from western nations & NGO's I have to be frank and say that i am not eniterly convinced with the medical benefits behind circumcision but this not the reason why i support circumcision. I support it as it is a practice that is ordained in our religion and as a muslim i submit completely to the commandments of Allah and His messenger Muhammed (peace be upon him). This is the primary reason why i support circumcision for both males and females all other reasons are secondary and not as important for me. Hope this clears my view on circumcision.
                      i also agree and as a muslim i submit to anything Allah says,or Prophet Muhammad SAW i have no issue with circumcision ,and i can understand why its recommneded if somebody has large clitoris then why they should remove a part of it ,but only some women will have this issue and mainly in hot countries so i dont think we should do it to everybody,

                      i just have a problem with those who go to the extremes and cause harm to the girl its says here not to go to extreme


                      Abu Dawood (5271) narrated from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcisions in Madeenah and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.”


                      i dont think there is much we can do about it those who go to the extremes as its hard to get through to them,i had this talk with my husband before and he said some of the people in hes country are too hard headed and wont listen

                      however i think we can do something by getting through to the youth and not being worried to talk about it ,i see before a women showed the somali men a video of FGM and they all cried and said they hear about it but didnt know the extremes some people go to,they then went on to say they wouldnt do it to their daughter

                      so maybe if scholars didnt shy away from the subject and taught the ummah how to perform it proply then maybe insha Allah atleast some people will stop
                      Last edited by Revert08; 23-09-14, 03:22 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

                        Originally posted by Revert08 View Post
                        my sis inlaws all had it done the way of the sunnah and alhamdulillah they are fine,happy and healthy and have a happy marriage Alhamdulillah

                        but i think more needs to be done to stop those who go beyond the sunnah insha Allah
                        I concur sister , basically after being informed on the status of it being unislamic (talking about those who go to the extreme) and if they persist with carrying on then they should be flogged or face any ta'zeer(discretionary ) punishments from the qadhi. Wallahi how i wish they were islamic courts that took care of such matters. I truly feel for those sisters who have went through such tribulations may Allah make their suffering and trials in this world a means of getting near to jannah. May Allah reward them with Jannatul firdaus for their patience
                        "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
                        those that are apparent and those that are hidden

                        Comment


                        • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

                          Originally posted by Guled View Post
                          I concur sister , basically after being informed on the status of it being unislamic (talking about those who go to the extreme) and if they persist with carrying on then they should be flogged or face any ta'zeer(discretionary ) punishments from the qadhi. Wallahi how i wish they were islamic courts that took care of such matters. I truly feel for those sisters who have went through such tribulations may Allah make their suffering and trials in this world a means of getting near to jannah. May Allah reward them with Jannatul firdaus for their patience
                          ameen

                          Comment


                          • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

                            Originally posted by Guled View Post
                            But the problem with them trying to persuade african government is not something that is achieved directly as they have to undermine these governments so it is more like forcing them to comply with their demands as african countries are economically tied to western nations, catch the drift. In the event they ban this practice it is not as a result of the majority of the populace wanting it but due to coerction from western nations & NGO's I have to be frank and say that i am not eniterly convinced with the medical benefits behind circumcision but this not the reason why i support circumcision. I support it as it is a practice that is ordained in our religion and as a muslim i submit completely to the commandments of Allah and His messenger Muhammed (peace be upon him). This is the primary reason why i support circumcision for both males and females all other reasons are secondary and not as important for me. Hope this clears my view on circumcision.
                            Your 100% correct. It's a way for Western nations to indirectly control government policy in Africa, while appearing to be humanitarians; in addition to policing local Somali populations in the West, and using social services to track their children. One jahil said children at risk should be monitored with spot checks. This is to get the targeted population used to being treated like criminals and thus demoralised.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

                              Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) : I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.”

                              In the shafi' madhab circumcision is obligatory for both men and women
                              Last edited by Guled; 26-04-15, 05:01 PM.
                              "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
                              those that are apparent and those that are hidden

                              Comment


                              • Re: Racial Politics of FGM & FGCS

                                Oh Lord please don't tell me you agree with FGM. I cba to read all of that but if you do wow!
                                [FONT=Century Gothic][COLOR="#0066ff"][SIZE=4] We're all a little broken in our own little way and the last time I checked, broken crayons still colour the same...[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

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