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Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

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  • #61
    abdulhakeem Thank you once again for the links. It is gratiying to get good answers.


    sultan I wonder if you know what smegma is? Did you know that most American men are circumcised?


    Kaaju Barfi Unless you have ever examined uncircumcised men 'down there' you really don't have any justification for your assertion.


    ponderingstar I also know of very little evidence that circumcised men have any issues in the long term.

    My concern about circuncision is the procedure being conducted upon children who are not old enough to give their consent.

    Islam does not require people to accept sharia until they reach puberty.

    It is simply a matter of consent, which Islam itself supports.

    On the matter of females exposing themselves in magazines or adults undergoing plastic surgery, I tend to agree with you.

    However, these people are adults, (certainly for any magazines published in the UK).

    I take the same line that I believe Muslims are advised to take when within the gaze of unseemly sights, I don't look.



    Sultan. The paste you provided to support the notion that circuncision reduces the chances of getting STDs has been published in similar form before. The evidence used to reach these conclusions is specious and the conclusions invalid.

    In one case, some reasearchers looked at the cases of 10 or so men they believed were unlikely to have been circumcised, and 10 they believed were likely to have. The results were the uncircumcised men were all affected by an STD while the uncircumcised men were not.

    Seemed pretty convincing until it was realised that the 10 uncurcumscised men came from Sub Saharan Africa, and the curcumcised men from a religious community in Israel.



    At the risk of repeating myself, my only point is that people should be permitted to opportunity to consent to this practice.

    From the links provided by abdulhakeem it seems that the majority opinion is that it isn't necessary while the children are very young.

    What consenting adults do with their bodies and their lives is a matter for them. But we are the guardians of children. We care for them until they are old enough to take responsibility for their own lives.

    Part of that responsibility is to maintain the spiritual and religious standards we have set for them.

    By imposing this procedure upon them before they have had a chance to decide for themselves we are in effect depriving them of the opportunity of demonstrating to God their own loyality and obedience which is what circimcision is all about.
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    • #62
      Originally posted by surfinjo
      ponderingstar I also know of very little evidence that circumcised men have any issues in the long term.

      My concern about circuncision is the procedure being conducted upon children who are not old enough to give their consent.

      Islam does not require people to accept sharia until they reach puberty.

      It is simply a matter of consent, which Islam itself supports.

      On the matter of females exposing themselves in magazines or adults undergoing plastic surgery, I tend to agree with you.

      However, these people are adults, (certainly for any magazines published in the UK).

      I take the same line that I believe Muslims are advised to take when within the gaze of unseemly sights, I don't look.
      i'm terribly sorry surfinjo but i would SERIOUSLY like you to take a poll of muslim men and ask them if they prefer having thier circumcision done when they were so young that they cannot remember or if they would have liked to have it done at the age of puberty once they had decided it was the religion for them

      I'm sorry but this smacks of the whole "white mans burden" philosophy. I relise you may not be white but that is not the point. Th epoint is the idea that people in the west somehow know better in regards to these things is just plain silly. There are many things that happen to kids that are terrible and circumcisionis not really counted as one of them.

      I can just imagine now how all the non muslim people would be all "oh look how cruel muslims are asking their boys as teenagers to undergo cricumcision" if muslims were to decide to do such a thing. it wouyld be silly and stupid, and we would be criticised for it and rightly so. But in this situation, your disapproval is another reminder that muslims are damned if we do and damned if we dont.

      IF there were masses uponmasses of circumcised men begging for teh act to stop happeneing and had good reaosn to do so i can see yur concern but there is no such thing. it's such a pointless argument. how can you not see that?

      as for people undergoing surgery i knw they are adults and gave you the reason i thought that despite being adults it showed that adults are not neccesarily wiser when they give theri consent. People who undergo plastic surgery make gods of celebrities and superficial beauty. It is something that is wrong in the culture andhence wrong with them. If you are talking of adult consent then surely you must agree the reaosn for it is so that humans can make decisions when they are able to do so through logic and reason. I propose that when people choose to have plastic surgery they abandon their logic and reason.

      This reminds me of this interview i overheard on a womens rights programme where an american woman was saying "I don't understand why people are afraid to be naked, i love being naked, the naked human body is beautiful, and since we are all born naked it is the most natural thing to be" and i go into the televison room and there's this bleach blende porn star with fake breasts and lips which i would sincerely doubt were NATURALLY as puffy as they seemed. the IRONY! YOU STUPID DUMB THICK WOMAN. And trust me the saddest part was that she wasn't being ironic.

      if there was some viable evidence that boys who are circumcised are mentally or physically damaged yo may have a point. But as things stand you don't.

      (IMO)
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      • #63
        surfinjo, i am a doctor, and i am telling you uncircumcised men have a higher tendency to devolop penile cancer.
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        • #64
          The reason why Muslims tend not to be supportive of the FGM debate is because the west use it to attack islam by attacking male and female circumcision full stop. Islam already codemns FGM as is clear from the hadith which I posted previously:

          How circumcision is to be performed is mentioned in the hadith narrated by Umm Atiyah, may Allah be pleased with her, according to which a woman used to perform circumcisions in Madinah. The Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him) told her: "Do not abuse (i.e. do not go to extremes in circumcising); that is better for the woman and more liked by her husband." (Reported by Abu Dawud in al-Sunan.

          But the west use FGM as a means of attacking Islam and the extremists oblige by condemning Muslims for this practice (circumcision) in the name of womens rights and stopping FGM. For so long they have slandered the somali community in particular in regards to this issue and for this reason no I would not support the west in their campaign. However if some sincere muslim ulema were to start such a campaign then yes we would support them.
          And Allh has set forth an example for those who believe, the wife of Fir'aun when she said: "My Lord! Build for me a home with You in Paradise, and save me from Fir'aun and his work, and save me from the people who are Zlimn


          There is no nobility in anyone who lacks faith.

          The wise man knows that the only fitting price for his soul is a place in Paradise.

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          • #65
            Who is this "we" you refer to?

            Muslims here have unequivocably condemned FGM without waiting for a campaign started by a "sincere muslim ulema".

            Jazakallah for all who have clearly stated their condemnation of such barbaric practices.

            Jazakallah for being clear as to what is wrong with FGM.

            Jazakallah for standing up and being heard.
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            • #66
              Originally posted by Al_irhaab
              The reason why Muslims tend not to be supportive of the FGM debate is because the west use it to attack islam by attacking male and female circumcision full stop. Islam already codemns FGM as is clear from the hadith which I posted previously:

              How circumcision is to be performed is mentioned in the hadith narrated by Umm Atiyah, may Allah be pleased with her, according to which a woman used to perform circumcisions in Madinah. The Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him) told her: "Do not abuse (i.e. do not go to extremes in circumcising); that is better for the woman and more liked by her husband." (Reported by Abu Dawud in al-Sunan.

              But the west use FGM as a means of attacking Islam and the extremists oblige by condemning Muslims for this practice (circumcision) in the name of womens rights and stopping FGM. For so long they have slandered the somali community in particular in regards to this issue and for this reason no I would not support the west in their campaign. However if some sincere muslim ulema were to start such a campaign then yes we would support them.
              Indeed brother i see what many people in the west try and do. But we must not lend ourselves to their tactics by allowing their attempts to confuse the issue stand in the way of what is right and wrong. we must say "yes female FGM is wrong but circumcision is not" if they ask for you to explain yourself then ask if they sincerely wish to hear the full details and whether they will let you speak, if yes then do so explaining the differences, what is and what is not required etc. if they do not wish to hear you then that is their bias. Ofcourse i would never recommend a brother to speak on this issue in the media but would leave it to a sister to deal with the issue, one who know about the topic.

              i think it is a fear of muslim women that many brothers do not care about practices such as FGM as it does not concern them, and the men it does concern, many times seem to "prefer" women who have undergone this terrible deformation. (if that's a word) EVen those men should be tsrongin their faith and start to stand up against it since that would be the QUICKEST way to help start this movement. (if men stopped their expectationa nd actually spoke out against it in certain countries)
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              • #67
                Yes pondering I agree with you 100 percent in fact Alhamdulillah i have spoken to muslims previously on this issue, specifically the african muslims that is why I made the point abt slandering the muslim african community. All muslims agree that FGM is wrong and it is something that has to be dealt with within the muslims community in the same way that wife beating etc needs to be dealt with. But that does not mean we latch on to the western NGOs who purposefully use these issues to take poor african muslims away from the deen.

                Maram it was in response to youre statement :

                Taking a stand against FGM seems just a little difficult for some members.

                I'm not sure why."

                If a sincere Muslim scholar starts up something to get rid of FGM people will and have followed and showed there support, but if people like you asked me to support it I would say no because Alhamdulillah I am able to read between the lines and see the consequences of doing such an action. As I recall it was you who started the debate maybe that is why there was little support in fact let me quote some things from that same article to show you why Muslims did not show the same great response you were looking for.

                1)"Somalia-born supermodel and best-selling author Waris Dirie," Muslims dont take weel to "super-models" aka glarmourised call girls telling them there deen

                2) where she was being honoured yesterday by a Roman Catholic mens movement for her efforts to stop the practice." They take even less well when said person is being honoured by missionaries...

                3) Islamic religious leaders are telling Europes Muslim Africans that the prophets recommend the ancient ritual, which involves the removal of the ****oris, often with a dull blade and no anaesthesia, Dirie said. " Muslims dont take well to there ulema being slandered.

                4) Although women generally perform the procedure, sometimes called female circumcision.
                The truth comes out it is female circumcision that they are trying to attack, if you did not notice this then maybe you should read the articles you post.

                In short inshallah in a couple of weeks I will personally put a post for you and ask the brothers and sisters here to condemn FGM and inshallah you will see that they do, because Inshallah I will clarify the difference between FGM and female circumcision and also say that this has no link to any kafir NGO which is trying to take people away from Islam.
                And Allh has set forth an example for those who believe, the wife of Fir'aun when she said: "My Lord! Build for me a home with You in Paradise, and save me from Fir'aun and his work, and save me from the people who are Zlimn


                There is no nobility in anyone who lacks faith.

                The wise man knows that the only fitting price for his soul is a place in Paradise.

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                • #68
                  ponderingstar having thier circumcision done when they were so young that they cannot remember

                  You may well be correct. Experiencing the discomfort would be daunting. Strange then that you see no harm in doing that to a small baby who has no choice.

                  once they had decided it was the religion for them

                  And assuming they don't?

                  Equally, the act of circuncision is in effect an act of worship to God. Surely an act of worship should be done by those who know what they are doing. Otherwise the Prophet (pbuh) in his wisdom wouldn't have said people should wait till pubetry.


                  I'm sorry but this smacks of the whole "white mans burden" philosophy.

                  Sounds to me like your resorting to the complaint of racism to defend your position. Opposition to infant circumcision comes from many different racial groups.

                  I can just imagine now how all the non muslim people would be all

                  Strangely enough, when I argue this matter on secular sites I am usually accused of anti-semitism or anti-Americanism. I have also been accused on a number of occasions of being an anti-semetic Muslim!! It seems many people are not aware that Islam advocates this custom.

                  Kaaju Barfi I understand what you say.

                  This comes from the American Academy of Pediatrics. It is their revised policy on circumcision. As a doctor you will know as well as I do that such a strongly revised document will be a portent to even stronger advice in the future, and that the change is policy will be gradual to reduce the risk that those who have been circuncised under the old policy cannot sue for damages.

                  Penile Cancer
                  Studies conclude that the risk of an uncircumcised man developing penile cancer is more than three-fold that of a circumcised man. However, the AAP policy notes that in the United States only 9 to 10 cases of this rare disease are diagnosed per year per 1 million men, indicating that while the risk is higher for uncircumcised men, their overall risk is extremely low.

                  http://www.aap.org/advocacy/archives/marcircum.htm

                  These links might also interest you, as a doctor.

                  http://www.circumcision.org/satisfied.htm

                  http://www.noharmm.org/masters.htm

                  http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/

                  http://faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DOC/

                  http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealt...rcumcision.htm

                  I'm sorry for the numbers of these links. Each has important information on male circumcision. I do hope you can find the time to read them. They are all reputable with verifiable information.

                  Al_irhaab But the west use FGM as a means of attacking Islam

                  I have never heard nor read any attempt to cirticise Islam on this issue.

                  Most sources seem to assume that female circumcision is confined mainly to Africans.

                  I do wish you well in finding some other means of claiming to be persecuted.
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                  • #69
                    hey sturgn wotever ure name is I aint asking for pity, the west is persecuting the muslims and trying to destroy Islam but that is what I expect from the devil worshiping regimes you have in place. I ask nothing of pity or self misery in return just that the western government acknwoledges this and then the muslims can do what Muslims do best fight for the sake of Allah (swt) and his messenger (saw), i got no persecuted mentality complex thing going on here
                    And Allh has set forth an example for those who believe, the wife of Fir'aun when she said: "My Lord! Build for me a home with You in Paradise, and save me from Fir'aun and his work, and save me from the people who are Zlimn


                    There is no nobility in anyone who lacks faith.

                    The wise man knows that the only fitting price for his soul is a place in Paradise.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Al_irhaab
                      The reason why Muslims tend not to be supportive of the FGM debate is because the west use it to attack islam by attacking male and female circumcision full stop. Islam already codemns FGM as is clear from the hadith which I posted previously:

                      How circumcision is to be performed is mentioned in the hadith narrated by Umm Atiyah, may Allah be pleased with her, according to which a woman used to perform circumcisions in Madinah. The Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him) told her: "Do not abuse (i.e. do not go to extremes in circumcising); that is better for the woman and more liked by her husband." (Reported by Abu Dawud in al-Sunan.

                      But the west use FGM as a means of attacking Islam and the extremists oblige by condemning Muslims for this practice (circumcision) in the name of womens rights and stopping FGM. For so long they have slandered the somali community in particular in regards to this issue and for this reason no I would not support the west in their campaign. However if some sincere muslim ulema were to start such a campaign then yes we would support them.
                      exactly, akhi
                      .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                      نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                      دولة الإسلامية باقية





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                      • #71
                        Well, if you can't win an argument by reason there's always name calling.

                        And for some in groups such as Muslims, there's the additional tool of persecution.

                        It's called paranoia.
                        Last edited by surfinjo; 29-11-04, 05:32 PM.
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                        • #72
                          surfinjo, aren't you the same guy who assumed that my husband ordered me out of bed to switch on the telly?: that is a somewhat ignorant and bordering on racists assumption, i realise that you have apologised and even seen your own error, but that does not change the fact that you WRONGLY ASSUMED that somehow my wonderful husband would be a brut, most likely because he is muslim.

                          But to the point: I am not calling you racist i am calling you arrogant, which you seem to be. (and you may hold some messed up preconceptions about the nature of muslim men, or about the nature of "other " cultures)

                          as to your being accused of anti semitism etc. it's still the same issue. (although to bring it up is side-tracking the discussion) who are you saving? what is your point? PLEASE tell me who's benefit you are making a stand for? If there IS NO ONE BENEFITTING THEN YOU ARE JUST MAKING A STAND AGAINST SOMETHING. somethign which does no harm, something which is part of us. so really you can see why people would call you all those things (if you have ANY sense of logic). They call you those things because to analyse the issue you are being an advocate for no one. you are inventing a law from no system whatsoever. you are just making a stand AGAINST practices that are foreign to you.

                          And THAT is where the white mans burden comes in. HOW DARE YOU come into another culture and tell us how to do things WHEN THEY DO NOT AFFECT YOU IN THE LEAST!!!!????? It is plain sheer arrogance. Seriously just b****r off, your concern is not wanted, it has NOTHIING TO DO WITH YOU. and i would like to say your reasoning skills are very basic if you think there is no distinction between the "white mans burden" complex and racism. they are indeed interlinked, but this is not the race card, it is the "poeple who think they know better when it does not concern them" card.

                          i am very annoyed.

                          as for harm to babies, could you plese show me what harm it does. all the men in my family were cricumcised at infancy and they have grown to be just fine like anyone else. If you would like to suggest to them that they are harmed then please go ahead.

                          so you see, we don't care IN THE LEAST what you do with your babies and whether or not they are circumcised, all we see is YET ANOTHER ATTACK on our way of life. please explain to me with reasoning how i am to see it otherwise.

                          I know lets just attack other peoples ways of life because it's fun! woohoo! look at you!
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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by ponderingstar
                            so you see, we don't care IN THE LEAST what you do with your babies and whether or not they are circumcised, all we see is YET ANOTHER ATTACK on our way of life. please explain to me with reasoning how i am to see it otherwise.

                            I know lets just attack other peoples ways of life because it's fun! woohoo! look at you!
                            Sis,

                            I haven't seen your way of life, or mine attacked by anyone in this thread.

                            In my generation, the males in my family (non-Muslim, non-Jewish) were all circumscized, not for a religious reason, but because it was considered a medically sound practice by the parents.

                            In my children's generation, of the non-Muslim males, 14 of them are not circumscized (my own sons included) because it was considered a sound medical practice by the parents.

                            One, non-Muslim nephew, was circumscized because it was considered a sound medical practice by his parents.

                            One, Jewish nephew, was circumscized due to his religion and it was considered a sound medical practice by his parents.

                            I am able to accept surfinjo's pov without it compromising my own.

                            And inshallah if I am ever blessed with another son, his father and I will obey the Islamic tradition.

                            But that won't stop me from accepting another parent's right to chose what they think is best for their own child.

                            Peace,

                            Mariam
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                            • #74
                              ponderingstar

                              I made the assumption that you husband had ordered you to switch on the TV because of the way you wrote it not because of your religion.

                              I don't believe, nor listen to the silly rants of some who claim Muslims repress women. Firstly becuae I know enough Muslimah to know this is ridiculous, and secondly because it has been reported that 75% of converts to Islam are women. (This is on a site www.themuslimwoman.com which sadly seems to be under construction at the moment).

                              My concern about circumcision is that it is a medically unnecessary procedure done on very young children who are not given any choice.

                              I'm not questioning the practice of Muslims to be circumcised. But, the evidence suggests that Islamic law would not object to Muslims being circumcised when they are ready to accept Islam for themselves.

                              I appreciate that circumcision, like FGM, is a cultural practice. My concern is not to interfere in cultures, but the welfare of fellow humans.

                              I'm sure that your intentions to stamp out the (largely African) cultural practice of FGM are borne out of a similar concern for your fellow humans, rather than any wish to interfere in another culture.
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                              • #75
                                i'm sorry but comparing circumcision to FGM is absurd. It's like comparing a flesh wound to an amputation. the ****oris is removed. DO you even understand what that means, it's on par with being castrated. If castration was part of any major religion i would understand your concern. Don't play wide eyed with me. please stop having such a base attitude with this. to even put the two in the same category shows ignorance.

                                it's like comparing reconstructive surgery, (the kind that isn't neccessary and hence i suppose is about vanity at the end of the day) to women who put balloon like objects in their chests to look sexually pleasing for men who are conditioned by their addiction to pornography.

                                the two are not the same, stop implying they are.

                                in one men go on to live perfectly happy lives, in the other a woman never experiences any sexual pleasure for the rest of her life. they are not similar; it is offensive to me and most people on this board to say it is. As though they are almost interchangeable. I find it frustrating that many muslim men do not take a stand on this issue but with people like you around i can understand why. You are part of the problem as far as i can see it.
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